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2014 - Canada Roster Discussion (Part IV)

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Old
03-16-2013, 02:55 PM
  #1026
MAK19
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Crosby and Bergeron together would be wasting one of the two's faceoff ability. And wasting Crosby's offense. Would rather have Kunitz there honestly. Bergeron at RW makes no sense to me whatsoever. He's the perfect 4C.

And I've explained my reasoning for not wanting Stamkos at centre. Also, if Stamkos is centre, then St. Louis will be on the team and I'm not sure I want him there at this point. St. Louis and Stamkos are very good offensively together - but defensively, not so much. They're horrible defensively and that's part of the reason why Tampa is so low in the standings. They score a lot, but give up as many goals as they score.

imo MSL was not there in 2010 because of his declining defensive play. He will also be 39 at the next Olympics... I'll pass on him.


My locks

Tavares - Crosby - Stamkos
X - X - Giroux
Staal - Toews - Nash
X - Bergeron - X
X

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Old
03-16-2013, 03:51 PM
  #1027
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
I'd say Getzlaf is slightly above average in the NHL while Stamkos is slightly below average. So I don't think it's really close. There's a reason why the Ducks have been so dominant this season. Getzlaf has been their best player.
That is your opinion then, I'm certainly not trying to say that Stamkos is a good defensive centre. So is Getzlaf the reason that they have also disappointed in recent years? There is more to it than that clearly, but there is no question that he has been playing very strong hockey thus far.

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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Even last year in Getzlaf's awful season, he wasn't THAT bad defensively.
I don't think anyone has said Getzlaf is bad defensively.

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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
You're underrating Getzlaf's skating, and overrating its impact on big ice. Getzlaf is a good puck possession, he won't need to chase it around the ice.
Puck possession players tend to disappoint on international ice relative to their NHL performance. There are always many points when any player will chase the puck.



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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
The short length of the Olympics means performance over 82 games isn't that important.

For example, I would pick Giroux for the Olympics. If it was 82 game tournament instead of the current format, there is no way in heck I would pick Giroux. Giroux is just awful defensively over the course of an NHL season. His effort is bad and at times pathetic.

Now, he is capable of playing well defensively. In a short tournament, I have no doubt Giroux will do whatever is necessary to win, including being responsible defensively. And obviously he is one of the most talented offensive players available.


Now, maybe Getzlaf was awful in his last 82 game season. Does that mean a more consistent but less talented player will be more effective in a short Olympic tournament? No.
I think you are missing the point of talking about 82 games. The small sample size makes me question what level Getzlaf is really at. If someone like Kunitz finished a year at this level of production, he would actually merit consideration for the time. It's highly unlikely that he would be able to do that over a long season though, as the sample size irons out hot and cold streaks for the most part. I want to know if Getzlaf is simply on an extended hot streak, or if he has basically returned to his peak.

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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
My mentality is goal differential. Say Line A scores averages 5 GF per game, but 2 GA per game. Say Line B averages 2.5 GF per game and 0.5 GA per game.

Clearly Line B is better defensively, but Line A is a better all around line.

I pick the best all around players, and Getzlaf fits the bill.
Everyone is considering goal differential, it's all that matters. Picking the best all around players isn't always the optimal strategy. If we need a checking line winger, Sharp is a better pick than Getzlaf even though Getzlaf is better, for example.

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I would take Getzlaf over St. Louis defensively.
St. Louis is a better defensive player, and the gap should grow with more ice to cover.

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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
What you're saying here is a non issue. Crosby and Toews are the locks to play centre. Bergeron should as well. There isn't a single other player who can ''only'' play centre. Staal, Stamkos, Benn, Tavares, Grioux, etc can all play the wing. Therefore, there is a centre spot available.
Just because they can play wing doesn't mean they should. Stamkos is clearly better than Getzlaf, which makes me wonder why he has to move over to the wing to accommodate Getzlaf. It would make sense if Canada had a shortage of centres and needed to take advantage of what was available, but that is not even remotely the case.

You have also been referencing Stamkos playing like a winger and just assuming that it will work. I would rather Canada not just make assumptions with the second best player on the team. If Stamkos loses a large part of his effectiveness due to moving to the wing, Canada loses a massive component of the team.

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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Crosby and Bergeron together would be wasting one of the two's faceoff ability. And wasting Crosby's offense. Would rather have Kunitz there honestly. Bergeron at RW makes no sense to me whatsoever. He's the perfect 4C.
I disagree that such a line would waste Crosby's offence. Crosby's best international tournament, by a mile, was the 2006 WC with Bergeron on his wing. We saw Crosby fail to click with highly skilled wingers in 2010 (and fail with an injured Bergeron), and at this point it seems like he works best with straightforward, responsible players.

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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
And I've explained my reasoning for not wanting Stamkos at centre. Also, if Stamkos is centre, then St. Louis will be on the team and I'm not sure I want him there at this point. St. Louis and Stamkos are very good offensively together - but defensively, not so much. They're horrible defensively and that's part of the reason why Tampa is so low in the standings. They score a lot, but give up as many goals as they score.

imo MSL was not there in 2010 because of his declining defensive play. He will also be 39 at the next Olympics... I'll pass on him.
St. Louis wasn't there in 2010 because Canada wanted to be big and gritty on NA ice. It had nothing to do with defensive ability, or even overall ability as St. Louis had a tremendous year. If they tailor their selections for the ice surface again, Getzlaf is in trouble.

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Old
03-16-2013, 06:03 PM
  #1028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Crosby and Bergeron together would be wasting one of the two's faceoff ability. And wasting Crosby's offense. Would rather have Kunitz there honestly. Bergeron at RW makes no sense to me whatsoever. He's the perfect 4C.

And I've explained my reasoning for not wanting Stamkos at centre. Also, if Stamkos is centre, then St. Louis will be on the team and I'm not sure I want him there at this point. St. Louis and Stamkos are very good offensively together - but defensively, not so much. They're horrible defensively and that's part of the reason why Tampa is so low in the standings. They score a lot, but give up as many goals as they score.

imo MSL was not there in 2010 because of his declining defensive play. He will also be 39 at the next Olympics... I'll pass on him.


My locks

Tavares - Crosby - Stamkos
X - X - Giroux
Staal - Toews - Nash
X - Bergeron - X
X
We lose nothing by having Bergeron there; in fact, we gain quite a bit by not having Crosby or Tavares worry as much about the defensive side of things or having to muck around in the corners. As you know, Bergeron is among the best in the world at working the corners and the boards, and he can hold his own offensively with the big guns. He'd most likely be a 70+ point player on another team (and was at that level before his concussion issues). We lose nothing by having him, and in fact he's one of the few guys in the running for Team Canada with the hockey IQ to work effectively with Sid and JT.

With respect to faceoffs - you do realize its much more difficult to win faceoffs cleanly on your weak side, right? Bergeron wins FOs at a 62% clip, but I can pretty much guarantee he's at 70%+ on his strong side and near 50% on his weak side. We'll always have Bergeron and one of Toews or Crosby out in key faceoff situations anyway, and whoever is on their strong side will take it.

And what makes no sense to me is loading up our top line with our three best offensive players. If I'm Bylsma, looking at Backes, Callahan, Oshie, Suter and McDonagh on my bench, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who to match them up against. By splitting the two up, you force the other team to make hard decisions that should create opportunities for the other line to exploit. Having a strong balance amongst all four lines is critical, and is what allowed us to be successful in 2010. And that's why I like Bergeron as something other than the #4C - moving a Giroux (or Getzlaf) down keeps the opposition honest.

I don't see an issue with MSL or Stamkos anchoring a line, so long as a more physical, responsible player like Staal plays with them. They're not horrible defensively, as you claim, more of a product of their environment. MSL has received Selke votes in the past. And look past his age; until there's evidence to the contrary, he's still one of our best wingers and deserves a spot on the team, as of right now at least. He's shown no signs of slowing down as far as I can tell, and we can use his speed on the larger ice and chemistry with Stamkos. Its a no-brainer, IMO.

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Old
03-16-2013, 06:11 PM
  #1029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
St. Louis wasn't there in 2010 because Canada wanted to be big and gritty on NA ice. It had nothing to do with defensive ability, or even overall ability as St. Louis had a tremendous year. If they tailor their selections for the ice surface again, Getzlaf is in trouble.
Correct, as MSL, Brad Richards, and Stamkos were three of our top five scorers in December 2009 and none were selected for Team Canada. Common denominator amongst the three is obvious.

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Old
03-16-2013, 06:38 PM
  #1030
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Originally Posted by 86Habs View Post
Correct, as MSL, Brad Richards, and Stamkos were three of our top five scorers in December 2009 and none were selected for Team Canada. Common denominator amongst the three is obvious.
Yep. I do think that leaving St. Louis off was a mistake, not that I would change things given what happened. It will be interesting to hear if Yzerman has such a specific vision for the team this time around.

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Old
03-17-2013, 03:40 AM
  #1031
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If the Olympics were to start today -

Stamkos - Crosby - St. Louis
Nash - Toews - Giroux
Perry - Getzlaf - Tavares
Staal - Bergeron - Lucic
Eberle/Neal or Benn

Keith - Webber
Doughty - Petrangelo
Letang - Byfuglien
Subban/Seabrook/ or Staal

Price
Ward
Fluery

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Old
03-17-2013, 11:20 AM
  #1032
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unitedstars View Post
If the Olympics were to start today -

Stamkos - Crosby - St. Louis
Nash - Toews - Giroux
Perry - Getzlaf - Tavares
Staal - Bergeron - Lucic
Eberle/Neal or Benn

Keith - Webber
Doughty - Petrangelo
Letang - Byfuglien
Subban/Seabrook/ or Staal

Price
Ward
Fluery
At first blush... Very good except for...

1) Lucic on the big ice??? Reminds me of Bertuzzi in 2006.
2) Big Buff is an American. I am sure he wishes he wasn't, but he is.

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Old
03-17-2013, 11:27 AM
  #1033
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With so much offensive talent to choose from, picking forwards is a roll of the dice. So many scorers, it is just a matter of chemistry.

On the back end, ~5 players are obvious but after that it gets tight. Not as deep as 2010.

In goal, it is the lesser of the evils.

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Old
03-17-2013, 01:41 PM
  #1034
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E.Staal-Crosby-Tavares
Giroux-Stamkos-St.Louis
M.Richards-Toews-Nash
Benn-Bergeron-Sharp
Neal

- I built my lines around a framework of Crosby-Stamkos-Toews-Bergeron as the centers. Getzlaf is having a great year but I wouldn't feel comfortable bringing him to play on the big ice. We've brought too many big slow lumbering guys in the past.
- St. Louis has to be on the roster at this point. With Stamkos.
- Keep that Toews line together to start.
- I wanted a 4th line with good shutdown ability. Bergeron as the center, Sharp as the RW (who can slot in on a line with Toews too). I honestly know nothing of Benn's defensive skills but I put him in at LW.
- My 13th forward goes to a winger. Neal could be changed for Eberle, Perry, Seguin... any number of guys.


Keith-Doughty
Hamhuis-Weber
Staal-Letang
Pietrangelo

- My focus here is having 3 LD. Hamhuis may be the surprise pick to some but he's so steady and with the Preds link he can play with Weber.

Price
Luongo
Whoever is hottest at the time for #3

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Old
03-18-2013, 02:31 PM
  #1035
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Kunitz-Crosby-Tavares
Stamkos-Giroux-St-Louis
Getzlaf-Toews-Perry
Benn-Bergeron-E.stall
Nash

Pietrangelo-Weber
Doughty - Letang
Pernell Karl Subban-Keith
Seabrook


Price
Luongo
Fleury


golden team !

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Old
03-19-2013, 03:59 PM
  #1036
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dangle6 View Post
Kunitz-Crosby-Tavares
Stamkos-Giroux-St-Louis
Getzlaf-Toews-Perry
Benn-Bergeron-E.stall
Nash

Pietrangelo-Weber
Doughty - Letang
Pernell Karl Subban-Keith
Seabrook


Price
Luongo
Fleury


golden team !
I know there is a lot of love right now for Kunitz, and he has been playing good hockey, but maybe it is just me, but i am not sold on the guy for Sochi, and there are better guys out there on the LW position. I know he has a lot of points, but those points will come when you are playing with one of the leagues best player.

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Old
03-19-2013, 04:24 PM
  #1037
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mehar View Post
I know there is a lot of love right now for Kunitz, and he has been playing good hockey, but maybe it is just me, but i am not sold on the guy for Sochi, and there are better guys out there on the LW position. I know he has a lot of points, but those points will come when you are playing with one of the leagues best player.
and if he goes to Sochi he'll still be playing with one of the leagues best players.

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Old
03-19-2013, 05:48 PM
  #1038
Cory Trevor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mehar View Post
I know there is a lot of love right now for Kunitz, and he has been playing good hockey, but maybe it is just me, but i am not sold on the guy for Sochi, and there are better guys out there on the LW position. I know he has a lot of points, but those points will come when you are playing with one of the leagues best player.
You are correct.

I'm sorry to say this but it needs to be said, taking Kunitz would be a HUGE mistake. In no way should he make this team. Sidney's propping up his value to an absurd degree. The only time you would take linemates is if they both have chemistry and belong in that extreme: Joey T and Heatley, Perry and Getzlaf, Stamkos and St. Louis(given that St. Louis is up to it)

As an opposing fan, I honestly hope that Canada would take him. It would be a colossally under-analyzed aspect. Giving Sid his winger just because you want a bit of chemistry or making him feel comfortable seems quite unlike a Hockey Canada move. If Canada were to bring him, I honestly feel better matching up with them if they were to carry him instead of, say, Benn and I dislike Benn.
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
and if he goes to Sochi he'll still be playing with one of the leagues best players.

On Olympic ice with different rules and in a short tourney, roster spots cannot be wasted. Really not comparable to the NHL other than a bit of chemistry. I don't like Crosby but you could put him with an actual rocking chair and the chair will get 3 years 12 mill because it just put in 28 goals and is a 'a great net front presence'.

It Worked for Marleau, Thornton, and Heatlhey because they all were suited for that type of game and had the talent/pedigree to belong there. And that was on NHL ice to boot with, IMO of watching Olympic hockey the most unlike Olympics I've seen in a long time.

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