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Old
03-18-2013, 03:28 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
So the two options are "NHL capable" and "the answer to the Wings problems?"

That's like saying "because Tatar isn't Datsyuk, he's basically Emmerton."
This is an interesting point, though, because I think it's the organization's viewpoint. There's sort of a standard for small players where unless they're the next D/Z, they have to wait.

They can have Zetterberg, Datsyuk, and Brunner as small skill guys... and that's all. If you're smaller or less skilled than those guys, you can't make the lineup. That's because Z and D need big guys to play alongside them and because the third line and fourth lines are designed to be defensive in nature.

Realistically, where are Tatar and Nyquist going to go? They're not allowed to play on the 3rd line, whether that's Babcock's call or Holland's (I think it's both), but they're not allowed to play on the top 2 lines either. The 4th line is out of the question. What's more, where is Jarnkrok going to go if Filppula stays?

I think the Wings' lineup is completely hostile to more small skill guys. There's nowhere to put them based on this team design. The question then is, is this a smart move? I'd be concerned about next year, because there will be 3 small skill guys knocking on the door. I don't think the Wings organization can afford to say no to all 3 of them. Something will have to change between now and then.

and as final note, let's not pretend we're talking about Jiri Hudlers. Tatar can skate very well. Nyquist skates very well. Jarnkrok is a good skater. These are mobile guys who could have a scoring role at the NHL level and still get back to support the D. and they could all do it right now.

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Old
03-18-2013, 03:31 PM
  #52
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It gives us a look at what he could possibly do in a full season. Not my problem if you refuse to ignore it. 18 games is a decent sample size, and Tatar got quite a few chances. Maybe you didn't watch him play?
I would lie if I said that I am specifically watching him, I watch the Wings. Tatar didn't really stand out to me specifically positively or negatively. That's better than the limited impression of Nyquist, but it also wasn't so good that if Tatar isn't promoted to the top six or if he was sent down even I could only conclude that Stanley Cup-winning Mike Babcock is a complete idiot which seems to be the mindset some people here have cultivated.

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03-18-2013, 03:35 PM
  #53
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I would lie if I said that I am specifically watching him, I watch the Wings. Tatar didn't really stand out to me specifically positively or negatively. That's better than the limited impression of Nyquist, but it also wasn't so good that if Tatar isn't promoted to the top six or if he was sent down even I could only conclude that Stanley Cup-winning Mike Babcock is a complete idiot which seems to be the mindset some people here have cultivated.
If Tatar didn't stand out positively to you then I don't think you'll ever be impressed by him. He was one of our three best forwards for a good portion of his 18 game stint - some nights he was arguably our best forward.

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03-18-2013, 03:39 PM
  #54
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If Tatar didn't stand out positively to you then I don't think you'll ever be impressed by him. He was one of our three best forwards for a good portion of his 18 game stint - some nights he was arguably our best forward.
Maybe I missed the games he was that good, I don't know, I would lie if I said I got to watch every game as I've been working a lot since February but I think I saw enough games to think that if Tatar was playing at as high a level as you want to lead me to believe I would have noticed.

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Old
03-18-2013, 03:52 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
This is an interesting point, though, because I think it's the organization's viewpoint. There's sort of a standard for small players where unless they're the next D/Z, they have to wait.

They can have Zetterberg, Datsyuk, and Brunner as small skill guys... and that's all. If you're smaller or less skilled than those guys, you can't make the lineup. That's because Z and D need big guys to play alongside them and because the third line and fourth lines are designed to be defensive in nature.

Realistically, where are Tatar and Nyquist going to go? They're not allowed to play on the 3rd line, whether that's Babcock's call or Holland's (I think it's both), but they're not allowed to play on the top 2 lines either. The 4th line is out of the question. What's more, where is Jarnkrok going to go if Filppula stays?

I think the Wings' lineup is completely hostile to more small skill guys. There's nowhere to put them based on this team design. The question then is, is this a smart move? I'd be concerned about next year, because there will be 3 small skill guys knocking on the door. I don't think the Wings organization can afford to say no to all 3 of them. Something will have to change between now and then.

and as final note, let's not pretend we're talking about Jiri Hudlers. Tatar can skate very well. Nyquist skates very well. Jarnkrok is a good skater. These are mobile guys who could have a scoring role at the NHL level and still get back to support the D. and they could all do it right now.
The funny thing is, DHO (Detroit Hockey Ops) keeps drafting these players; Babcock just seems loathe to play them. The bigger guys don't seem to pan out as often as the smaller, more skilled ones...

... and no, I don't have any evidence for that, it's just how it seems to go.

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03-18-2013, 04:02 PM
  #56
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The funny thing is, DHO (Detroit Hockey Ops) keeps drafting these players; Babcock just seems loathe to play them. The bigger guys don't seem to pan out as often as the smaller, more skilled ones...

... and no, I don't have any evidence for that, it's just how it seems to go.
Right. I think what we have is an identity crisis in Detroit.

Draft small, play big?

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03-18-2013, 04:05 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
Right. I think what we have is an identity crisis in Detroit.

Draft small, play big?
Who wins the personality conflict though? Babcock or DHO?

I think Babcock goes first, but not anytime within the next year.

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03-18-2013, 04:17 PM
  #58
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According to Chuck Pleiness (@wingsfrontman) Helm left the ice early. I bet it takes him at least 3-4 weeks to find his stride, if he ever makes it back. No pun intended.

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03-18-2013, 04:22 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by JDrake View Post
According to Chuck Pleiness (@wingsfrontman) Helm left the ice early. I bet it takes him at least 3-4 weeks to find his stride, if he ever makes it back. No pun intended.
Anyone think they call up Sheahan or Ferraro -- or hell, even Jurco -- instead of Nyquist/Tatar?

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03-18-2013, 04:25 PM
  #60
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Anyone think they call up Sheahan or Ferraro -- or hell, even Jurco -- instead of Nyquist/Tatar?
They already had a full roster against the Canucks without Nyquist...

... don't have to call anybody.

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03-18-2013, 04:27 PM
  #61
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Anyone think they call up Sheahan or Ferraro -- or hell, even Jurco -- instead of Nyquist/Tatar?
I'm not sure how it would work logistically but I'd love to see what Sheahan can do. He's turned a corner (not to a one-way street) this year in Grand Rapids.

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03-18-2013, 04:34 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
The funny thing is, DHO (Detroit Hockey Ops) keeps drafting these players; Babcock just seems loathe to play them. The bigger guys don't seem to pan out as often as the smaller, more skilled ones...

... and no, I don't have any evidence for that, it's just how it seems to go.
By the time the Wings pick the big skilled guys are gone. Babcock understands this because he has input on who's drafted. He doesn't loathe small players either. He just seems to hate players because he's such a hard ass. He won't coddle players or cater to egos and he's set in his ways.

Now, if he's going to be fired it's going to be by a new GM who'll put his own guy behind the bench. I just don't see Holland parting with Babcock anytime soon, in spite of their suspected conflicts.

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03-18-2013, 04:39 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by GT500x View Post
By the time the Wings pick the big skilled guys are gone. Babcock understands this because he has input on who's drafted. He doesn't loathe small players either. He just seems to hate players because he's such a hard ass. He won't coddle players or cater to egos and he's set in his ways.
No no, "loathe to play them" not "loathe them."

Meaning he doesn't really want to play them, let alone where they might be effective.

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Now, if he's going to be fired it's going to be by a new GM who'll put his own guy behind the bench. I just don't see Holland parting with Babcock anytime soon, in spite of their suspected conflicts.
Fair enough.

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03-18-2013, 04:42 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
They already had a full roster against the Canucks without Nyquist...

... don't have to call anybody.
They don't have to, but they might anyway just to see what's what.

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Originally Posted by JDrake View Post
I'm not sure how it would work logistically but I'd love to see what Sheahan can do. He's turned a corner (not to a one-way street) this year in Grand Rapids.
Agreed, but between him and Ferraro it's a toss-up for me; I'd like to see if Ferraro can center the 4th line (or better) and what he can do on the PK.

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03-18-2013, 04:47 PM
  #65
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Maybe I missed the games he was that good, I don't know, I would lie if I said I got to watch every game as I've been working a lot since February but I think I saw enough games to think that if Tatar was playing at as high a level as you want to lead me to believe I would have noticed.
When Tatar got called up it took him a few games to score, and it's surprising that you wouldn't have noticed because at the time, basically nobody else in the bottom six had scored.

I also don't understand the attitude that fans can't question any decision by someone who works for an NHL franchise. Do you all know everything and never make mistakes or get criticized by others in your professions?

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03-18-2013, 04:51 PM
  #66
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Let's re-call Nyquist so we can scratch him again, no?

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03-18-2013, 04:51 PM
  #67
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According to Chuck Pleiness (@wingsfrontman) Helm left the ice early. I bet it takes him at least 3-4 weeks to find his stride, if he ever makes it back. No pun intended.
So they send Nyquist back for this? My guess is that Nyquist and his waiver eligibility are an asset and seeing the Wings are only playing again on Wednesday and the Griffins are playing on Tuesday, they sent him back because of this.

Either that or Helm is really close. He said earlier that he's good to go on Wednesday or earlier next week.

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03-18-2013, 07:43 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post

They can have Zetterberg, Datsyuk, and Brunner as small skill guys... and that's all. If you're smaller or less skilled than those guys, you can't make the lineup. That's because Z and D need big guys to play alongside them and because the third line and fourth lines are designed to be defensive in nature.
This isn't necessarily true. Our best line last year was Fil-Z-Huds. Who was the big guy on that line? I'm tired of people harping on that

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03-18-2013, 07:46 PM
  #69
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This isn't necessarily true. Our best line last year was Fil-Z-Huds. Who was the big guy on that line? I'm tired of people harping on that
I think Fil is a big, if short, guy. He's athletic and fast enough to not really count. So Z and Huds.

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03-18-2013, 07:52 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
I think Fil is a big, if short, guy. He's athletic and fast enough to not really count. So Z and Huds.
So a guy who is 6 feet tall and averages 1 hit every 2-3 games is what qualifies as a "big guy" that other skilled players need to be productive? So if you're big or tall or fast or any combination of the above, you can be the "big guy" on a line for skilled players?

In that case, our roster is packed with "big guys" like Filppula, Samuelsson, Miller, Emmerton, and Eaves.


The notion that Datsyuk or Zetterberg need anyone to be productive is ridiculous. Filppula has never been anything special when he wasn't next to Zetterberg or Hossa. If a skilled player has a strong hockey IQ, thats all it takes to make up for his physical shortcomings. Thats why guys like Hudler have been able to produce at every level despite having terrible skill sets.

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03-18-2013, 10:43 PM
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I think it should be Andersson but they did mention the other week that he just got an apartment in Detroit so that could mean he was told he'd be staying.
They had to get him an apartment because the CBA has rules about how long you can keep callups in hotels. He might also be staying for the duration, but the apartment thing isn't conclusive evidence.

Personally I think if Helm and Sammy and/or Bert come back, Andersson is on his way back to GR. They will need the roster spot and with Helm around, they won't need a 5th center.

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03-18-2013, 11:57 PM
  #72
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Tatar has an 'on pace' for around 15-20 goals, and 15-20 assists over a full season. For a guy that averaged about 1:50 of PP time and less than 12:00 of TOI/G total, that's some nice production.

Of course he has weaknesses, everyone does, but he has a nose for the net and is a guy who can put it in the net, a distinct NEED on this roster of grinders and playmakers.

With Helm coming back, I think Tatar fills a need more than either Nyquist or Andersson, and would look good playing beside Tatar rather than Abdelkater, who hasn't scored a goal with a goalie in net with his own power. Andersson should be sent down, Tatar up.

But oh wait, Anderssson is a big body and plays realgood. Don't get me wrong, I like Andersson and would like to see him slot in as the 4th center, getting rid of Emmerton, and have Tatar up, but right now Tatar would help this team more than Andersson in my opinion.
tatar has been one of the best offensive players on the team in my eyes, and i think his stats support that opinion.

he had the highest 5 on 5 corsi and fenwick (measures of shot differential) on the team. he also had the 4th highest points per minute at ES (after datsyuk, filppula and bertuzzi).

tatar obviously faced weak opposition, but that will be true of whoever plays in the bottom 6. he should at least be called up to play on the 3rd line.

PP usually looks a lot better with him, and his hunger for the puck and willingness to attack are qualities that the team needs, imo.

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The thing you look for in a guy who isn't one of your elite star type players is positioning, work ethic, intensity, physicality, decision-making off-the-puck, awareness. Tatar isn't bad at all of those things or else he would have been sent down already, but to say he has no weaknesses in any of those areas is flat out delusional.
imo, the bottom line is that tatar is better than the other bottom 6 players and i think contributes more to winning.

top 6 play against top opponents. imo, bottom 6 are basically there to not **** up until top 6 get back on the ice. tatar andersson line tended to drive play into the offensive zone and create chances, which also relieves pressure on the d-men.

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Well whatever we say/think the main reason he hasn't earned Babcock's full trust is his play without the puck. So in terms of getting more icetime it's defensive awareness. I'd rather he learned it the hard way by playing NHL minutes but it's not going to happen.
i think that is right, but i don't think tatar is worse than brunner defensively. brunner was demoted to 3rd line recently, but his TOI has not been nearly as limited as tatar's.

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Who wins the personality conflict though? Babcock or DHO?

I think Babcock goes first, but not anytime within the next year.
i would say top management. this was a conflict in '07, and babcock lost.

the other important thing is that DRW have been much better at drafting europeans than canadians and americans. those europeans have tended to be smallish skilled players.

i think as long as hakan andersson and other scouts in europe keep getting players like datsyuk, zetterberg, filppula, hudler, jarnkrok, nyquist, tatar, backman, etc, and scouts in NA keep getting mostly role players, i think a puck possession style of play will probably remain.

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03-19-2013, 01:32 AM
  #73
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No matter what guy goes out of the lineup getting Helm back is huge if he can play at 80% capacity or better.

If Abdelkader isn't going anywhere before Sammy's back I'd go with:
Filppula-Zetterberg-Brunner
Franzen-Datsyuk-Abdelkader
Cleary-Helm-Miller
Andersson-Emmerton-Tootoo
If you would switch franzen with brunner respectively that would be my current favorite forward lineup. I can only imagine the production Brunner would have setting up in the off wing back door like he did in the swiss league but actually having datsyuk dishing him great passes.

I also agree with what a couple have posters have said in that I also feel franzen plays best with Z. Old franzen would have been good with datsyuk but career contract franzen doesn't drive the net enough anymore.

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03-19-2013, 01:45 AM
  #74
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This whole size thing is crap. Obviously size is nice to have, but some players are capable of playing bigger than their frame. Look at Datsyuk. Guy is so clearly stronger on the puck than anyone on the team, more than Franzen. Look at Z, he protects the puck as well as any player in the league.

If a player plays big, stop worrying about his height and weight. Tatar had no issues due to size in his games up. None at all. People are making a big deal out of nothing. Would it be nice if he was 6'5 220 but Datsyuk isn't and he's fantastic every night.

Gauge how they play, not their stats sheet.

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03-19-2013, 08:53 AM
  #75
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This whole size thing is crap. Obviously size is nice to have, but some players are capable of playing bigger than their frame. Look at Datsyuk. Guy is so clearly stronger on the puck than anyone on the team, more than Franzen. Look at Z, he protects the puck as well as any player in the league.

If a player plays big, stop worrying about his height and weight. Tatar had no issues due to size in his games up. None at all. People are making a big deal out of nothing. Would it be nice if he was 6'5 220 but Datsyuk isn't and he's fantastic every night.

Gauge how they play, not their stats sheet.
Hey, something we can agree on!


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