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All encompassing value of Mike Ribeiro thread

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Old
03-18-2013, 10:24 AM
  #101
Exit Dose
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
Or, the Caps could trade him to a team that wants to sign him longterm to maximize the return AND help the new team in the playoffs THIS season.

IF he's moved (and that's a BIG IF), he'll get a 1st and a decent prospect, minimum.
Are you implying that Jersey and Pittsburgh had no interest in signing Kovy and Hossa longterm? Because I seem to remember both trying to do exactly that. I'll ask again, what past trade are you using an example of the return that you're expecting?

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03-18-2013, 02:47 PM
  #102
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He will be worth a 1st rounder and decent prospect but then team would have to resign a 34 year old to a contract which would run until he was probably 39 to make that trade worth it. No way I would that. He's got a year left maybe 2 then his skills tank.

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03-18-2013, 04:40 PM
  #103
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"All-encompassingly!"

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03-18-2013, 05:27 PM
  #104
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Vancouver - Washtington

To WAS: Schroeder + Ballard + 1st + 2nd
To VAN: Ribeiro + Orlov/Green

Breaks down as Schroeder + 1st > Ribeiro; Ballard + 2nd < Orlov/Green.

Not sure how Caps fans view Green/Orlov but the Canucks need a RHD for the PP...give up the futures required for Ribeiro and a guy who needs a chance in Ballard (Ballard actually has really good advanced stats both this season and last playoffs but just can't get along with the coach)...feel free to switch the 2nd to Cory Schneider if you'll give us Carlson instead of Green/Orlov.

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Old
03-18-2013, 06:45 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
That is what it meant. I stand by the fact that no GM, no matter how bad they are, goes into trading those players saying to themselves, 'I want projects, spare parts, and maybe a pick or two'.
It's early and you're not making sense to me. You said rentals return projects. I said yeah, but they also return 1st round picks. etc. etc.....here we are. Obviously no GM says to himself "oh you know, that blue chip guy is going to ruin our farm system, how about we take your question mark player". Where I even implied something of the sort is beyond me but regardless, my point was that the main component of the three trades you mentioned was the 1st round pick with the prospect being secondary.

Since we're still talking about it Joe Colborne was viewed as a bit better than a full on project at the time he was traded. Esposito and Cormier were both one of many moving parts in their respective trades; Esposito was viewed as pretty much a full on bust at the time of the Hossa trade and Cormier was never viewed as much of a top 6 prospect anyways. In both of those cases Atlanta was clearly after the other commodities involved more than the prospects. It's possible they could have gotten a blue chip prospect (we'll never know) had they lowered expectations on the other assets in the trades.

Who exactly are the blue chip prospects being talked about in this thread? Certainly Devante Smithi-Pelley isn't, at least not in the greater hockey community outside of Anaheim.

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03-18-2013, 07:03 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
It's early and you're not making sense to me. You said rentals return projects. I said yeah, but they also return 1st round picks. etc. etc.....here we are. Obviously no GM says to himself "oh you know, that blue chip guy is going to ruin our farm system, how about we take your question mark player". Where I even implied something of the sort is beyond me but regardless, my point was that the main component of the three trades you mentioned was the 1st round pick with the prospect being secondary.
I'm contending that the first round pick is the best piece of those trades for a reason.

Looking back at your past comments, I think it's obvious that you misread what I said. You didn't look at the post I was quoting and therefore failed to put it into context. The person I was responding to said that they were going to get a 1st and a prospect and then listed off: McNeill, Karlsson, and Matteau. My contention was that those aren't the sort that end up in rental trades.

With all that said, you have implied that there are other options on the table, which is why I'll ask for the third time, which past trade of a rental brought a return where the picks weren't the most significant part, i.e. where the prospects were not projects or the roster player was something other than a spare part?

Quote:
Since we're still talking about it Joe Colborne was viewed as a bit better than a full on project at the time he was traded. Esposito and Cormier were both one of many moving parts in their respective trades; Esposito was viewed as pretty much a full on bust at the time of the Hossa trade and Cormier was never viewed as much of a top 6 prospect anyways. In both of those cases Atlanta was clearly after the other commodities involved more than the prospects. It's possible they could have gotten a blue chip prospect (we'll never know) had they lowered expectations on the other assets in the trades.
Colborne was considered a project when he was drafted. He had done nothing at that point to elevate himself above that status. All that he had shown at that point was that there hadn't been any setbacks.

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03-18-2013, 08:15 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
With all that said, you have implied that there are other options on the table, which is why I'll ask for the third time, which past trade of a rental brought a return where the picks weren't the most significant part, i.e. where the prospects were not projects or the roster player was something other than a spare part?
I didn't have the proper context, my bad. On the question you just asked I already answered that. It was never my contention that rentals return top prospects, simply that prospects received for rentals weren't the top priority, and perhaps if they were we would see more high end prospects traded as opposed to 1st round picks. We can't know that because 1st and 2nd round picks are the primary commodity at the deadline.

In any case, I've seen names like Schroeder, Devante Smith-Pelley, Mark McNeill mentioned for guys like Ribeiro and Roy. None of those are blue chip prospects to anyone and all could, by some measure, be legitimately called project prospects with either questionable ability of reaching high potential (Schroeder) or relatively subdued top end NHL potential (DSP and McNeill).

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03-18-2013, 08:40 PM
  #108
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Has McNeill slipped a bit recently? I haven't followed him much this season, but last I checked he was well above where DSP looked like he was headed(above average third liner).

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03-18-2013, 09:13 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Slappy View Post
This is probably a moot point because the Hawks probably wouldn't trade him anyway, but if the Caps really wanted Teravainen they would've taken him in the draft when they had a chance (and took Wilson instead).
That's like saying if the Oilers had even a passing fancy in Galchenyuk they'd have just drafted him, and since they didn't the couldn't care less about getting him if he were available.

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Old
03-18-2013, 09:14 PM
  #110
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How many pure picks (no projspects) could the caps get for him?

1st and a 2nd? 1st, 2nd and some 4ths scattered over the next 3 years? I'd rather max out on picks before getting projects.

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Old
03-18-2013, 09:20 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
Vancouver - Washtington

To WAS: Schroeder + Ballard + 1st + 2nd
To VAN: Ribeiro + Orlov/Green

Breaks down as Schroeder + 1st > Ribeiro; Ballard + 2nd < Orlov/Green.

Not sure how Caps fans view Green/Orlov but the Canucks need a RHD for the PP...give up the futures required for Ribeiro and a guy who needs a chance in Ballard (Ballard actually has really good advanced stats both this season and last playoffs but just can't get along with the coach)...feel free to switch the 2nd to Cory Schneider if you'll give us Carlson instead of Green/Orlov.
Terrible from a Caps perspective.

A more realistic valuation would be:

Schroeder + 1st = Ribeiro
Ballard + 2nd <<<< Orlov/Green

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Old
03-18-2013, 09:29 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
Has McNeill slipped a bit recently? I haven't followed him much this season, but last I checked he was well above where DSP looked like he was headed(above average third liner).
His top end has always been 2nd line center from what I understand. I'm not going to pretend to know exactly how he's done this year but judging by his junior career numbers #2 center is a ways off.

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