HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Gagner NEEDS to stay an Oiler . . .

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-15-2013, 03:10 PM
  #251
Senor Catface
Registered User
 
Senor Catface's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Country: Nepal
Posts: 6,225
vCash: 1937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
Again, injuries have determined Gagner's PK increase, that is extremely evident. Gagner's "defensive game" still needs a TON of work, anyone can see this, regardless of whether you want to take any other metric into account.



Line matching data and TOI data comes directly from the NHL. You are claiming in error who Gagner matches up against, and plays with, and when shown that your assertion is incorrect, you fault the data? Not the stronget argument.



Again, behindthenet does not create TOI data, the NHL does.



Again, you don't have to go down this road when there is so much about Gagner to like. I can't understand for the life of me discounting such simple data, it really hurts the credibility of your argument.



When you claim that this player play with this one or this player plays against this one, and your assertion isn't true, how can you possibly counter with "these were the circumstances under which this occured"?

Again, you didn't have to go down this road in defense of the value of the player, but it seems you wish to do so unabated. Your call, man, but it's really weakening your argument that Gagner is the player you are making him out to be.
Stats that don't support a position are garbage!

Senor Catface is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 04:17 PM
  #252
Ol' Jase
PLAYOFFS??
 
Ol' Jase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,785
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
being perfectly honest when I go look at data on hockey analysis the first thing I notice is columns like Fenwick, Corsi, Haro,, and Hard ratings and other such advanced stats garbage. Instantly I tend to think I'm in the land of contrived stats. What I want, and search desperately, is actual data, actual numbers, not derivations contrived through formulas I don't accept in the first place.

For instance I would prefer actual GF, GA, versus harder to work with GF20% broken down to several decimal pts.. honestly when I see something like that broken down for limited data (and this whole season is largely limited data) it makes me feel I'm perusing numbers designed by David Staples.

To be clear I have background in statistical analysis and years of training in the same. So when I say some stats are poorly conceived I'm expressing more than an opinion. In most instances the individuals compiling such hockey advanced stats have no specific training in statistical analysis or even scientific methodology. Most of the sites don't even offer the specific formulation that they used to derive a particular stat. Many of the advanced stats in use have been effectively and specifically rebuked.
For instance pay attention to the myriad development and changes in Corsi which begat many evolving attempts to make it useful but with this still being a work in progress.

So you end up having to trust in good faith that there numbers mean anything or point out anything useful. Even fewer sites offer a competent rational behind their advanced stats. Usually you just get a brief description of what the stat is.
I am absolutely numb. The fourth post in a row where you have referenced advanced stats when no such topic has once been presented here by myself.

When a player is on the ice is not an advanced stat. Who is on with him is not an advanced stat. Who is on the ice against him is not an advanced stat.

You are literally trying to undermine the discussion by referencing nothing relevant to the conversation, and in the process, have severely undermined your credibility in said discussion.

I can't continue this discussion another second in good faith. Cheers, enjoy the game tonight.

Ol' Jase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 04:22 PM
  #253
Replacement
Now with 9% more zen
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hockey Hell
Country: Canada
Posts: 38,652
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
I am absolutely numb. The fourth post in a row where you have referenced advanced stats when no such topic has once been presented here by myself.

When a player is on the ice is not an advanced stat. Who is on with him is not an advanced stat. Who is on the ice against him is not an advanced stat.

You are literally trying to undermine the discussion by referencing nothing relevant to the conversation, and in the process, have severely undermined your credibility in said discussion.

I can't continue this discussion another second in good faith. Cheers, enjoy the game tonight.
cheers good sir.

If you have a better site or way of obtaining matching data other than hockey analysis or behind the net let me know. I'm not particularly enamored with either of those sites although I use Behind the net for raw data.

I have a head cold btw. When my head starts hurting less maybe I can venture back to the above sites and not have it give me a migraine.

Replacement is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 04:30 PM
  #254
Ol' Jase
PLAYOFFS??
 
Ol' Jase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,785
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
cheers good sir.

If you have a better site or way of obtaining matching data other than hockey analysis or behind the net let me know. I'm not particularly enamored with either of those sites although I use Behind the net for raw data.

I have a head cold btw. When my head starts hurting less maybe I can venture back to the above sites and not have it give me a migraine.
You're a good joe, Replacement. I don't forget that during our exchanges.

I hate the way advanced stats are used as much as you do. They serve a purpose, but due to the nature of hockey not dealing with static situations like baseball, there is no end of room for error.

I like www.leftwinglock.com for some basic numbers that have nothing really manipulative about them.

Line production, line matchups, line combinations. Meat and potato stuff.

REL Corsi, Qualcomp, Fenwick, etc can say what it wants to who ever it wants. When I see Sam Gagner faced Keith and Seabrook 60% during a game, he faced the top dmen for the majority of that game. Cut and dry, and I find the best way to add context to the Holy Grail numbers.


Last edited by Ol' Jase: 03-15-2013 at 06:49 PM.
Ol' Jase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 04:36 PM
  #255
Replacement
Now with 9% more zen
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hockey Hell
Country: Canada
Posts: 38,652
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
You're a good joe, Replacement. I don't forget that during our exchanges.

I hate the way advanced stats are used as much as you do. They serve a purpose, but due to the nature of hockey not dealing with static situations like baseball, there is no room for error.

I like www.leftwinglock.com for some basic numbers that have nothing really manipulative about them.

Line production, line matchups, line combinations. Meat and potato stuff.

REL Corsi, Qualcomp, Fenwick, etc can say what it wants to who ever it wants. When I see Sam Gagner faced Keith and Seabrook 60% during a game, he face the top dmen for the majority of that game. Cut and dry, and I find the best way to add context to the Holy Grail numbers.
Thanks so much.

That site is so much better. Just meat and potatoes as you say and I don't stare at several columns of advanced stats while trying to get line matches and such. Oddly enough I had this link before but a couple unexpected computer reformats later and some of these treasures go missing.

Replacement is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 06:31 PM
  #256
Up the Irons
Registered User
 
Up the Irons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,666
vCash: 408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
In multiple posts in the thread I've stated I want both players on my team, I like both players on my team. But what I'm seeing here is more of a Datsyuk/Zetterberg type 1A/1B configuration. Its not always going to be clear who number 1 is and I don't feel its important. What I feel is important is the oilers retaining both of these players.
could be right. i'd be over the moon if you are. that is why it is important Tambo attempts to bulk up the top 6 with Hemsky, the 2013 and 14 first round picks, or by other means. I'm sure he intends to do just that. One would think those 3 assets would be enough to get at least 2 decent top 9 forwards with size, like Rene Bourque or Chris Stewart.

Up the Irons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-18-2013, 08:17 PM
  #257
Replacement
Now with 9% more zen
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hockey Hell
Country: Canada
Posts: 38,652
vCash: 500
Just to bump this its interesting that in the recent Detroit game Gagner was out against Pavel Datsyuk, the best pure center in the game, 75% of his minutes. It was the pure line on line matchup the Oilers picked. Gagner has seen one hell of a lot more of both Datsyuk and Zetterberg this season than RNH has.

In the same game RNH had Datsyuk for 26% of his toi. Nuge face Nyqvist, a raw rookie, for 50% of his toi.

This not being an isolated situation either. In fact since Horc is back our club has gone back to babysitting RNH(the right thing to do) and trying to get him the easiest possible minutes. Unfortunately this is still resulting in zero production.

But its quite clear in recent games, even with Horc back, Gagner is seeing the most difficult matchups. Not only is Gagner continuing to produce, but his GA has come steadily down through the season. Also interesting that Gagners pk minutes continue unabated even with Horc back in lineup.

Impressive stuff.

Replacement is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-18-2013, 09:15 PM
  #258
AM
Registered User
 
AM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,901
vCash: 500
Well, I hope Gagner stays, meaning that him and the Oilers can come to a mutually agreeable contract.

Hopefully there is a hometown discount, I don't think well be able to pay the "going rate".

AM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-18-2013, 09:19 PM
  #259
AM
Registered User
 
AM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,901
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Just to bump this its interesting that in the recent Detroit game Gagner was out against Pavel Datsyuk, the best pure center in the game, 75% of his minutes. It was the pure line on line matchup the Oilers picked. Gagner has seen one hell of a lot more of both Datsyuk and Zetterberg this season than RNH has.

In the same game RNH had Datsyuk for 26% of his toi. Nuge face Nyqvist, a raw rookie, for 50% of his toi.

This not being an isolated situation either. In fact since Horc is back our club has gone back to babysitting RNH(the right thing to do) and trying to get him the easiest possible minutes. Unfortunately this is still resulting in zero production.

But its quite clear in recent games, even with Horc back, Gagner is seeing the most difficult matchups. Not only is Gagner continuing to produce, but his GA has come steadily down through the season. Also interesting that Gagners pk minutes continue unabated even with Horc back in lineup.

Impressive stuff.
Gagner is doing one thing better this year than previous years. He's going to the net.

I cant say he's playing better defense then he was but you don't have to play d if you're on the offensive.

AM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 04:19 PM
  #260
Connor McOilers
We suck.
 
Connor McOilers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,192
vCash: 500
Tambo was on hockey central at noon on sports net and made is sound like wants to sign Gagner to a decent length deal and will pay him "what he deserves". Seemed like he wants to keep him around.

Connor McOilers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 04:22 PM
  #261
Koto
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,264
vCash: 500
good

Koto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 04:32 PM
  #262
Shanahanigans
Registered User
 
Shanahanigans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,569
vCash: 500
Also, his slapshot has improved greatly. He already has a couple of slapshot goals, and ripped one yesterday off the post the Neimi had no chance of getting. I'm pretty sure he worked on it in the offseason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLElq_dGsmc

Watch this Youtube video of Sam Gagner playing in Austria during the lockout. He was playing the point on the PP and a number of his goals came from unloading bombs from the point. Impressive.

Shanahanigans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 04:41 PM
  #263
Njoy Oilers
Registered User
 
Njoy Oilers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Southern Alberta.
Posts: 3,340
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Just to bump this its interesting that in the recent Detroit game Gagner was out against Pavel Datsyuk, the best pure center in the game, 75% of his minutes. It was the pure line on line matchup the Oilers picked. Gagner has seen one hell of a lot more of both Datsyuk and Zetterberg this season than RNH has.

In the same game RNH had Datsyuk for 26% of his toi. Nuge face Nyqvist, a raw rookie, for 50% of his toi.

This not being an isolated situation either. In fact since Horc is back our club has gone back to babysitting RNH(the right thing to do) and trying to get him the easiest possible minutes. Unfortunately this is still resulting in zero production.

But its quite clear in recent games, even with Horc back, Gagner is seeing the most difficult matchups. Not only is Gagner continuing to produce, but his GA has come steadily down through the season. Also interesting that Gagners pk minutes continue unabated even with Horc back in lineup.

Impressive stuff.
Agree with this line of thought of your post, and note that RNH has looked WAY better being sheldtered even though his scoring is still missing. My dad mentioned to me last night that they need to play meat & potatoes hockey. He likes Horcoff.

Njoy Oilers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-15-2013, 07:56 PM
  #264
KlimasLoveChild
Registered User
 
KlimasLoveChild's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: The Toilet of Canada
Posts: 1,675
vCash: 500
I'm thinkin Sammy has to be sweating bullets right about now. He looked a little worried in the locker room interview today. Apparently MacT has stated its pretty unlikely Ebs,hall, nuge, yak will be moving. That doesn't leave a whole lot of value to work with. I anticipate a big bodied second line center coming into the fold this summer.

KlimasLoveChild is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-15-2013, 08:03 PM
  #265
Psycho Dad
Oil Kings
 
Psycho Dad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sherwood Park
Posts: 10,754
vCash: 610
Quote:
Originally Posted by KlimasLoveChild View Post
I'm thinkin Sammy has to be sweating bullets right about now. He looked a little worried in the locker room interview today. Apparently MacT has stated its pretty unlikely Ebs,hall, nuge, yak will be moving. That doesn't leave a whole lot of value to work with. I anticipate a big bodied second line center coming into the fold this summer.
Whereas Tambi might have given him $5M a year and extra years because Sam wants to be a part of something big here :grin: , MacT is going to take his agent to school. Take $4M to stay or take your chances elsewhere where your deficiencies are scrutinized heavily.

Psycho Dad is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-15-2013, 09:32 PM
  #266
stratedge
Rebuild, year 4...
 
stratedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Calgary, AB
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,450
vCash: 500
Gagner is a luxury that the team can't afford to keep, salary-wise in a salary cap world. If you have to take a $4.5M+ player and turn him into multiple assets to use throughout the line up, he's the odd one out who gets the best return.

Main issue I can see is the contract he'll be looking for relative to what he actually brings. The Oilers need skill with grit, and Gagner is the most likely to go for that sake.

stratedge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-15-2013, 09:59 PM
  #267
Sloth Slothersons*
They cut my beard
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Planet Earth
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,329
vCash: 500
Yes, although I've always liked Gagner. Passionate, hard-worker, and sticks up for his teammates, we basically have a better version in Nugent-Hopkins. He doesn't fight (yet) and he's having a bad year, but we know he's capable at being everything Gagner is and better.

Sloth Slothersons* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-15-2013, 10:12 PM
  #268
AlowlyOilersfan
Comrade
 
AlowlyOilersfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,815
vCash: 50
I'd prefer if we kept him.

But if there is a great deal to make that gets us some size and/or D than you gotta make the deal.

AlowlyOilersfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:12 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.