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Which player had the best skillset in their prime?

View Poll Results: Player with the best skillset
Mario Lemieux 46 34.59%
Wayne Gretzky 50 37.59%
Sergei Fedorov 17 12.78%
Peter Forsberg 1 0.75%
Eric Lindros 5 3.76%
Pavel Bure 5 3.76%
Sidney Crosby 1 0.75%
Alexei Kovalev 2 1.50%
Jaromir Jagr 5 3.76%
Alex Ovechkin 1 0.75%
Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-18-2013, 02:59 PM
  #51
Darth Yoda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
No argument there. Lemieux was a better goal scorer than Gretzky in the 90s. But there again, Wayne was well past his prime at that point. And this thread is about their primes.
Yeah but for some reason Gretzkys prime was when he was 20 to 24 years old. Lets be serious here, he carnivoured on a league that was not ready for him. It happened at a time after rapid expansion and defence nor goaltending were where it should have been. He later adjusted accordingly and he's the best passer ever no doubt, but i just cant state the same about his goal scoring even if he has those records.


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03-18-2013, 03:14 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Yeah but for some reason Gretzkys prime was when he was 20 to 24 years old. Lets be serious here, he carnivoured on a league that was not ready for him. It happened at a time after rapid expansion and defence nor goaltending were where it should have been. He later adjusted accordingly and he's the best passer ever no doubt, but i just cant state the same about his goal scoring even if he has those records.
Your argument might have merit if Mario had scored over 100 goals in 88-89 instead of 85 goals. But the fact remains is that Gretzky scored MORE goals than Mario in a lower scoring year (in 83-84). I think the reason Gretzky's goal scoring dipped at age 25 has more to do with him scoring 163 assists than anything else. From that point on, he focussed on assists. And why the heck not? He set the single season scoring record (215 points) that year because of it....

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03-18-2013, 03:21 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Lets be serious here, he carnivoured on a league that was not ready for him.
Certainly a fair amount objective truth in what your saying, entering the league when he did on the heels of Expansion & Amalgamation with the WHA. A perfect storm. However, if even adjusted using whatever criteria & numerics', he'd still have produced jaw dropping numbers Im sure and still would today. An absolutely phenomenal talent that transcends era's, conditions & environment. What does make for an interesting debate is how he would have fared in the 06 era, and by that I mean would he have even made it to the NHL? He was lithe, almost frail, the lane-game an absolute dictate that if not followed you sat or wound up in the old WHL, maybe the PCHL, high scoring outliers populating a lot of those teams. Demanded that you have a defensive game & be willing to fight if required. No exceptions to the rule.

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Old
03-18-2013, 03:38 PM
  #54
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My vote goes to the player who holds the NHL record for goals, assists and points in a season and career. The way Gretzky gets underrated here is laughable, and I get where people might vote for Lemieux over Gretzky due to his size and the way he dominated the league in the late 80's and early 90's, but who in their right mind would vote for a guy like Alexei Kovalev over Wayne Gretzky?

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03-18-2013, 04:12 PM
  #55
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Certainly a fair amount objective truth in what your saying, entering the league when he did on the heels of Expansion & Amalgamation with the WHA. A perfect storm. However, if even adjusted using whatever criteria & numerics', he'd still have produced jaw dropping numbers Im sure and still would today. An absolutely phenomenal talent that transcends era's, conditions & environment. What does make for an interesting debate is how he would have fared in the 06 era, and by that I mean would he have even made it to the NHL? He was lithe, almost frail, the lane-game an absolute dictate that if not followed you sat or wound up in the old WHL, maybe the PCHL, high scoring outliers populating a lot of those teams. Demanded that you have a defensive game & be willing to fight if required. No exceptions to the rule.
no idea if it's true or not, but i've read here and there that little henri richard, the guy who played more games in a habs uniform (and won more cups) than anyone else, would never even have gotten a shot if his brother wasn't who he was.

interesting to wonder the same thing about gretzky in the 06, even if most of us agree he would have destroyed the league if given a shot.

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03-18-2013, 04:43 PM
  #56
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by frontsfan2005 View Post
My vote goes to the player who holds the NHL record for goals, assists and points in a season and career. The way Gretzky gets underrated here is laughable, and I get where people might vote for Lemieux over Gretzky due to his size and the way he dominated the league in the late 80's and early 90's, but who in their right mind would vote for a guy like Alexei Kovalev over Wayne Gretzky?
Keep in mind the topic here, skillset.

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03-18-2013, 04:48 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Keep in mind the topic here, skillset.
Are you saying Alexei Kovalev had a better skill set than Wayne Gretzky?

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03-18-2013, 05:00 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
..interesting to wonder the same thing about gretzky in the 06, even if most of us agree he would have destroyed the league if given a shot.
Ya, good point and comparison between those two, Henri Richard & Gretzky. I'd not actually heard that before, that perhaps some nepotism was involved in his getting a shot with the Habs. I know he was a high flying high scoring Jr. with the Nationales' & Junior Canadiens. Amusing stories of how in his first year playing the wing on a line with Olmstead he was all over the ice. Bert yelling at him to stick to his lanes, Henri either ignoring him or just not understanding, his english not the greatest. But sure, smallish size even for that era, great set of wheels, hockey smarts.

Likely with Gretzky had he somehow become property of Montreal its very probable he'd have played in the NHL, though with any of the other clubs, hard to say. Maybe the Rangers as well, seeing him as a novelty act to some extent. That club through the late 50's & early 60's not as regimented as say a Chicago or Toronto, Detroit. He certainly wouldve drawn the attention of the Scouts in the 50's as an amateur in Brantford with the kinds of numbers he was putting up. The Leafs sat on their hands over Orr & several others so Im not confident they'd have tried to sign him. Certainly under Conn Smythe, Hap Day etc likely wouldnt have been impressed. Flash in the pan, not big enough etc, scooped by someone else while waiting. There were some arcane territorial claims amongst the 6 clubs throughout Ontario. No idea where Brantford mightve fallen in that regard. And so ya, fun to contemplate, imagine.

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03-18-2013, 05:15 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Keep in mind the topic here, skillset.
Ya, I brought this up earlier in the thread. "Complete skillset". Underlining complete. When I think that, Im thinking the 2nd tier of great players, guys who played it both ways superbly. Henri Richard, Dave Keon, Doug Gilmour etc. Guys who didnt really put up super gaudy numbers but none the less impressive offensively, but equally so defensively. The players listed, all Superstars transcend the normal criterias, excelling offensively but each with deficiencies in other aspects of their games. That being said, their offensive skills of such magnitude that they overshadowed, over-compensated & in most cases negated the normal requirements of lets say their defensive game, pugilistic skill's or what have you. Not that Henri, Keon or Gilmour were noted for fighting, the thought in & of itself absurd, but by "skillset" I trend towards those types. Hard working Professorial types, Bob Gainey another. More temporal, corporeal.

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03-18-2013, 06:36 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
Your argument might have merit if Mario had scored over 100 goals in 88-89 instead of 85 goals. But the fact remains is that Gretzky scored MORE goals than Mario in a lower scoring year (in 83-84). I think the reason Gretzky's goal scoring dipped at age 25 has more to do with him scoring 163 assists than anything else. From that point on, he focussed on assists. And why the heck not? He set the single season scoring record (215 points) that year because of it....
Lemieux during the 80s/very early 90s showed he was at least in Gretzky's league. His 70 and 85 goal seasons with his weak wingers is at least in the same ballpark as what Gretzky was doing at his best with better wingers, his 69 in 60 is as good as anything too. If Gretzky has an advantage during their younger years in a high scoring era, it's only small. Where Lemieux really pulls ahead is his dominance past his prime when scoring was dropping. Gretzky was finished on the goal leaderboards before turning 30 and Lemieux kept clowning the league into his 30s. He scored 50, retired, came back years later and scored 35 in 43. He scored a goal a game at an age where Gretzky was jockeying for position with Petr Klima, Pat Verbeek and Dave Gagner. He was simply a much more able and versatile goal scorer, and unlike Gretzky he proved he could be the cream of the crop both at an advanced age and a different era. Put them both in today's league with the same skillsets they had and there's no comparison, goal-scoring-wise. Points-wise it would be a very close, they'd trade the Art Ross back and forth.

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03-18-2013, 07:08 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
If Fedorov had the best skill set it would have shown itself with more points. The only thing he did at an elite level vs most this list was play defence but his point production is very lacking vs most the names in this poll.
Well, I think I've seen "fastest skater" videos of Fedorov beating all of Jagr, Mogilny, and Bure, and was the winner at two All-Star comps in that category, so his skating was obviously damn close to the benchmark for everybody. I'd wager he was undoubtedly the best backwards skating forward in the NHL at that point (probably even beyond), but I'm armed with very little besides snippets of Youtube videos in support. Also among the very hardest (clocking a 101.5 mph at the 2002 All-Star) and most accurate shots. Stickhandling through traffic... I might have to give to someone like Kovalev or Lemieux, but Fedorov wasn't far off either of them in that regard. Very good passer as well, if not on the level of someone like Gretzky. Had a slap shot, had a snap shot, had a wrist shot, had a backhand. How much more of his skillset do you really need to "flesh out" to get an idea of how "elitely skilled" he was?

Oh yes, his defense was elite as well. Have always been impressed with that play of him chasing Gretzky (then on the Blues) down on what should have been a 2-on-1 break, pickpocketing him, and almost making Gretzky break an ankle trying to pursue him afterwards. Everyone in the stands that night knew immediately what they had seen, and erupted immediately upon seeing Gretzky left to circle beyond the net away from Fedorov and the puck.

If you look at all of the highest scoring seasons in the history of the NHL, I think the vast majority of those players will tell you with a straight face that they played in an environment where there were no consequences for risk taking as long as it turned into goals. Going beyond the usual suspects of Gretzky/Mario, how key was the defensive aspect of Yzerman's game when he hit 155? Esposito when he hit 152? Nicholl's 150? Jagr's 149? How about Lafontaine's 148? Selanne's 132? Dale Hawerchuk's 130?

When you get down to the 120s, you start seeing Messier, Crosby, Sakic, Fedorov - solid 2-way forwards even in those particular seasons of high scoring. Even Messier, despite playing on the 80s Oilers, only hit a number so high once in his career, and never even matched a lesser scoring year with a Selke. So how many points does that mean we should have expected from Fedorov during the DPE, for the bread crumbs of his talent to be easy enough for even the pedestrian hockey fan to find? I mean, he set his 2nd and 3rd highest career PPGs between his big year ('93/94) and the onset of the DPE and has the best statistical line for the playoffs during that period of anyone before or after that's not named Trottier or Bossy.

We know that Fedorov didn't play in a consequence-free environment and was asked to play differently - be a cog in the wheel, be predictable and reliable for the rest of your 5 man unit, etc. And it worked. Consecutive championships and three titles by the time he left town. It's not like he didn't pull off highlight reel plays/goals - Youtube is full of them post-1994 - he just didn't turn on the jets and do it every night; even if he was almost certainly capable of it. Maybe he saved himself for the playoffs too much for some people's liking, but what's the fewest number of points (or lowest points %, I suppose, since there's a lockout year in there) Detroit ever ended up with as a result during his tenure, 93 (0.567)? And never lower than 2nd in the division?

Maybe Fedorov's career value is overrated by some (perhaps including myself - I'm certainly putting time into the Fedorov-Selanne thread), but his skill set is almost impossible to overrate, imo.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 03-18-2013 at 07:18 PM.
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Old
03-18-2013, 07:15 PM
  #62
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This sort of thread is always a challenge, because I don't know how to treat Wayne Gretzky. There are some A+ scorers and A+ passers, but do I put Wayne Gretzky ahead of more physical players because he is an A+++++ scorer and an A+++++ passer? Wayne Gretzky is the best ever, and there are things that he could do that no one else could do, but unless I'm grading on a curve that turns all of the other elite players into C- students in some offensive categories, I'd go with the usual grouping of Howe, Orr, Messier, Trottier, and Clarke.

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03-18-2013, 07:19 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
If Fedorov had the best skill set it would have shown itself with more points. The only thing he did at an elite level vs most this list was play defence but his point production is very lacking vs most the names in this poll.
I can't believe you wrote that. What does SKILLSET have in common with ACHIEVEMENTS?

Quote:
As for Lemieux what skill set did he have that Gretzky didnt? Note that I dont consider being bigger to be a skill.
Again, this is not about who was the better player, but who was more talented. Fedorov and Lemieux were faster, stronger, and had better shot than Gretzky. Obviously, Gretz made up for all of those with his godlike vision and hockey sense, but as far as those skills listed, he can't hold a candle to either of them. Again: Gretzky was the best hockey player ever by a long shot, but as far as pure skill goes, 66 and 91 were better.

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03-18-2013, 07:37 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Fedorov and Lemieux were faster, stronger
Speed and strength are physical traits not skills.

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03-18-2013, 07:39 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Again: Gretzky was the best hockey player ever by a long shot
Maybe the late hour here and my current understanding of the english language right now is not so good, but Bobby Orr says Hi!

Edit: Yeah, i guess longshot means tight. Forget the above. I can add though that Gretzkys brain did him great, more than his physical skills which i guess this poll is about. Would be interesting to hear about Orr's brain though on some occasion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
But the fact remains is that Gretzky scored MORE goals than Mario in a lower scoring year (in 83-84).
It is not correct 83-84 was a lower scoring year than 88-89. Reverse it.


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03-18-2013, 07:55 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by frontsfan2005 View Post
My vote goes to the player who holds the NHL record for goals, assists and points in a season and career. The way Gretzky gets underrated here is laughable, and I get where people might vote for Lemieux over Gretzky due to his size and the way he dominated the league in the late 80's and early 90's, but who in their right mind would vote for a guy like Alexei Kovalev over Wayne Gretzky?
Here's how I would compare Kovalev to each of Gretzky, Lemieux, and Fedorov (the only three legit choices on this list IMHO, as explained above).

Kovalev vs. Gretzky
Skating: Kovalev
overall shooting ability: Kovalev
hockey sense: Gretzky
passing: Gretzky
playmaking: Gretzky
puck control: Kovalev
defense/checking: Kovalev

Kovalev vs. Lemieux
Skating: Kovalev
overall shooting ability: Lemieux
hockey sense: Lemieux
passing: Lemieux
playmaking: Lemieux
puck control: Lemieux
defense/checking: Kovalev

Kovalev vs. Fedorov
Skating: Fedorov
overall shooting ability: Fedorov
hockey sense: Fedorov
passing: Fedorov
playmaking: Fedorov
puck control: Kovalev
defense/checking: Fedorov

As you can see, the "Kovalev over Gretzky" argument is the most legitimate. And the reason for that is because Gretzky, as we all know, was a much more cerebral player. Lemieux and Fedorov, in addition to having better hockey minds, were simply more talented than Kovalev physically. With Gretzky, he doesn't have the strength or speed Lemieux, Kovalev, or Fedorov have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
No one does all of the above as well as Crosby.
How about a prime Steve Yzerman? Faster skater. Better and more versatile goal scorer. Double-shifted in a checking role pre-Fedorov (He received Selke votes in his 155 point year) and was used to shut down Gretzky in the 1987 conference finals. Not sure why Yzerman, Beliveau, Trottier, Howe were not included.

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03-18-2013, 08:09 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
Your argument might have merit if Mario had scored over 100 goals in 88-89 instead of 85 goals. But the fact remains is that Gretzky scored MORE goals than Mario in a lower scoring year (in 83-84).
Average goal scoring in 1988-89: 7.483 = x

Average goal scoring in 1983-84: 7.889 = y

y = 1.054x

If you use that as a factor to adjust Lemieux's numbers upwards, he comes out with ~90 goals. If you adjust it to that factor and also adjust the 76GP to 74GP (what Gretzky played in 83-84), it comes out at just above 87.

Now, if we look to Gretzky's 92-goal season...

Average goal scoring in 1981-82: 8.025 = z

z = 1.072x

Adjust by that factor, plus increase from 76 to 80 GP, and we get to 96 goals.

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03-18-2013, 08:12 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I can't believe you wrote that. What does SKILLSET have in common with ACHIEVEMENTS?



Again, this is not about who was the better player, but who was more talented. Fedorov and Lemieux were faster, stronger, and had better shot than Gretzky. Obviously, Gretz made up for all of those with his godlike vision and hockey sense, but as far as those skills listed, he can't hold a candle to either of them. Again: Gretzky was the best hockey player ever by a long shot, but as far as pure skill goes, 66 and 91 were better.
As someone else said and I alluded to earlier, size and speed are physical traits not skills. I might agree that Lemieux had a better shot, but the OP mentioned playmaking and hockey sense both of which Gretzky trumps him.

Regardless, I'm not saying Gretzky wins this by virtue of scoring more points I'm only saying that he had an amazing skillset. One of the most accurate shots ever with elite agility and the greatest playmaking skills of all time. He could score, dangle, pass, and was even a pretty good penalty killer. The stats are a reflection of his greatness, not the reason for it.

And my first point still stands - if Fedorov had a better shot than Gretzky why didnt he score more than he did? If he was an elite playmaker, why didnt he have more seasons with elite point production? He was one of the best skaters even and was excellent defensively. But compared to most the names on this list, he is well below in every other category listed by the OP.

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03-18-2013, 08:24 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Average goal scoring in 1988-89: 7.483 = x

Average goal scoring in 1983-84: 7.889 = y

y = 1.054x

If you use that as a factor to adjust Lemieux's numbers upwards, he comes out with ~90 goals. If you adjust it to that factor and also adjust the 76GP to 74GP (what Gretzky played in 83-84), it comes out at just above 87.

Now, if we look to Gretzky's 92-goal season...

Average goal scoring in 1981-82: 8.025 = z

z = 1.072x

Adjust by that factor, plus increase from 76 to 80 GP, and we get to 96 goals.
In what way does this differ from HockeyReference's formula? They tell us only Gretzkys 87-goal season per game was as good as Lemieux 85 goals 1988-89.

But i do wanna push for Lemieux's 95-96 as well. Dynamite!

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03-18-2013, 08:34 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Wayne Gretzky was...
Well, no. Wayne Gretzky may be the Best Ever to you and the majority, but to a lot of people, Orr, Gordie Howe, Lemieux, Lidstrom even, whomever is the Best Ever. If we throw out the numbers, like just forget about them and consider the players being discussed from a purely artistic perspective, as in how they played, skated, all of the nuances of their game, style, then it becomes interpretive, subjective, a matter of individual taste & preference, appreciation. Some like abstract paintings, others prefer realism. Some might like Howe over Gretzky because he was a far more proto-typical player, a beyond power power forward. Its whatever turns their cranks...

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03-18-2013, 08:50 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Here's how I would compare Kovalev to each of Gretzky, Lemieux, and Fedorov (the only three legit choices on this list IMHO, as explained above).

Kovalev vs. Gretzky
Skating: Kovalev
overall shooting ability: Kovalev
hockey sense: Gretzky
passing: Gretzky
playmaking: Gretzky
puck control: Kovalev
defense/checking: Kovalev

Kovalev vs. Lemieux
Skating: Kovalev
overall shooting ability: Lemieux
hockey sense: Lemieux
passing: Lemieux
playmaking: Lemieux
puck control: Lemieux
defense/checking: Kovalev

Kovalev vs. Fedorov
Skating: Fedorov
overall shooting ability: Fedorov
hockey sense: Fedorov
passing: Fedorov
playmaking: Fedorov
puck control: Kovalev
defense/checking: Fedorov

As you can see, the "Kovalev over Gretzky" argument is the most legitimate. And the reason for that is because Gretzky, as we all know, was a much more cerebral player. Lemieux and Fedorov, in addition to having better hockey minds, were simply more talented than Kovalev physically. With Gretzky, he doesn't have the strength or speed Lemieux, Kovalev, or Fedorov have.
Now in reality, heres how they rank:

Kovalev vs. Gretzky
Skating: Kovalev
overall shooting ability: Gretzky (you don't score 92 goals or 894 career goals without excellent shooting ability)
hockey sense: Gretzky (miles ahead)
passing: Gretzky (miles ahead once again)
playmaking: Gretzky (again, not even close)
puck control: Gretzky (again, not comparable)
defense/checking: Kovalev (HUGE maybe, although I'll take the guy who scored 12 and 11 shorthanded goals in a season over a guy who had 9 in his entire career and was never known to be a defensive player)

Overall best skillset in their prime: Gretzky, and it's not even remotely close.

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03-18-2013, 08:52 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
In what way does this differ from HockeyReference's formula? They tell us only Gretzkys 87-goal season per game was as good as Lemieux 85 goals 1988-89.

But i do wanna push for Lemieux's 95-96 as well. Dynamite!
HR has a complicated formula that involves removing the player's own individual stats and adjusting against the average of the rest of the league (a practice which hurts top players) as well as adjusting for season length (divide by number of team games, multiply by 82). This is why early NHLers have such high adjusted stats on HR; the GP adjustment has already been made. I just wish they had a column for "adjusted games played"; like if a guy plays 77 of his team's 84 games, that would be 75 AGP. Or if someone plays 17 this season, it would be 29 AGP.

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Old
03-18-2013, 08:57 PM
  #73
pdd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frontsfan2005 View Post
Now in reality, heres how they rank:

Kovalev vs. Gretzky
Skating: Kovalev
overall shooting ability: Gretzky (you don't score 92 goals or 894 career goals without excellent shooting ability)
hockey sense: Gretzky (miles ahead)
passing: Gretzky (miles ahead once again)
playmaking: Gretzky (again, not even close)
puck control: Gretzky (again, not comparable)
defense/checking: Kovalev (HUGE maybe, although I'll take the guy who scored 12 and 11 shorthanded goals in a season over a guy who had 9 in his entire career and was never known to be a defensive player)

Overall best skillset in their prime: Gretzky, and it's not even remotely close.
I said "most legitimate" and that's simply due to the fact that he has a physical advantage that he doesn't have over Fedorov or Lemieux. Also, I gave Kovalev the "defense/checking" category because neither were really significant defensive players, but Kovalev had the ability to be a monster physically.

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Old
03-18-2013, 09:08 PM
  #74
pdd
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Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
As someone else said and I alluded to earlier, size and speed are physical traits not skills.
Skating ability is at least as much a skill as "hockey IQ". For that example, I give you Zdeno Chara. He entered the league with the New York Islanders, and was a poor skater. Big, strong, knew what was happening on the ice but couldn't skate to save his life and was basically a pylon. A joke. Later in his career, he worked on improving his skating. This was around the same time he was traded to Ottawa. Suddenly Chara the pylon became Chara the first-pairing defenseman, riding shotgun for Norris contender Wade Redden. Then Redden signed with the NYR, and Chara was #1.

Quote:
I might agree that Lemieux had a better shot, but the OP mentioned playmaking and hockey sense both of which Gretzky trumps him.

Regardless, I'm not saying Gretzky wins this by virtue of scoring more points I'm only saying that he had an amazing skillset. One of the most accurate shots ever
That's not the only thing being considered with regards to shot, though. Fedorov and Kovalev both had 100mph slappers with quick releases.

Quote:
with elite agility and the greatest playmaking skills of all time. He could score, dangle, pass, and was even a pretty good penalty killer. The stats are a reflection of his greatness, not the reason for it.
The thread is still about who has the best skillset, not who put up the best stats.

Here's a good comparison, prime v. prime, that might snap some sense into you:
Skating: Coffey
overall shooting ability: Bourque
hockey sense: Coffey
passing: Coffey
playmaking: Coffey
puck control: Coffey
defense/checking: Bourque

Who's better? Who has the better skill set?

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Old
03-18-2013, 09:15 PM
  #75
LeBlondeDemon10
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Best skill set competitions are for All-star game competitions and media types to talk about because they got to fill an hour on TV/radio or pump out a magazine. I mean really, if you can't do it in a game, against the best players in the world, who cares? No one ever considered Moe Norman to be the best golfer ever. But he is considered the best ball striker. BIG difference.

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