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Why aren't they trying Grabovski on the wing?

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Old
03-17-2013, 09:38 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post

I think a line of:
Kessel-Grabovski-JVR

Could possibly re-surge Grabovski's offensive prowess and put Bozak in a much more suitable position in the process (Centering a shutdown line of Kulemin-Bozak-MacArthur).
I hate to say this but the only way this happens is if Bozak is injured.

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03-18-2013, 11:06 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
While it is accurate to cite the 29+29 season Grabo had, that was a one off where 3 players snuck up on the league and had career years, it is also important to note those stats were achieved under a vastly different system where no defence was required. We are now seeing the effects of a coach that demands defence first on Grabo. Last 10 games last year Grabo finished with 3 points, some of us saw this coming, this year 29 games only 11 points. That's a 39 game sample where only 14 points were scored by Grabo. Some will say the sample is still too small, but to some it is clear this is the player he is under normal coaching where defence is required from a player.

Kadri is already a better #2C than Grabo and it took him what 29 games as a Center to prove this? kadri is a playmaker first, and thus far has made every player around him look better. It's not in Grabo's skillset to make players look better.

Unless Grabo is put with Kessel and JVR, there is no other place for him on this team, he has failed as the #3C, Kadri has displaced him as the #2C. So really where does RC play him? Do we trade kadri to make room for Grabo? The way I see it is Wing is the only place left for him on this team, right now he misses Ron Wilson's system more than anything. This is the only way to reignite him, but I don't see this team going back to the tommy gun no defence approach. Best to try him on the wing and hope he can have a resurgence like Jason Blake did. Then move him.
I'm 99% sure we're in agreement here. I said Grabo used to be a 30/30 player, I didn't mean to say I'd expect that out of him playing in a shut down role in Carlyle's defensive system. I said it's not like he has stone hands, he has proven in the past he can score. Going forward the best way to reignite him would be to put him on wing in a top 6 role, since the center spots are taken.

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03-18-2013, 11:12 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by TheSilencer View Post
i wouldn't wanna restructure the lines just to justify a bad contract/rejuvenate one's career.
There hasn't been a lot of structure to Kadri's line, here's a quick list of wingers that I can come up with that he's played with this season:

Lupul
MacArthur
Kulemin
Frattin
Komarov
Orr

I'm sure there's more. To say putting Grabo on Kadri's wing would be some major restructuring that would pose a threat to this team is a bit dramatic.

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03-18-2013, 11:16 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
I wrote this post on the Trade Rumors & Proposals forum and it seems pretty well suited for this thread:


This is a myth that was started by Ron Wilson and has been disproven by posters on the Leafs forum time and time again. Prior to this season, they had been kept apart in the same way that Phil Kessel & Nazem Kadri are currently being kept apart. Before this season, Mikhail Grabovski was our 2nd best scoring threat (behind Kessel) and he was able to generate offense on his own separate line alongside Nikolai Kulemin and Clarke MacArthur. However, with the emergence of offensive wizard, Kadri, the addition of JVR and return of Lupul we are now getting scoring from all over.

I think at the very least we need to try the two players (Kessel & Grabovski) on a line for an extended period of time before completing dismissing the theory as impossible. They both play an intense speed game, Grabovski is reliable defensively and Kessel has evolved into one of the league's elite playmaking wingers. Kessel is an equal threat to pass and shoot, Grabovski falls in the same boat but opts to shoot more and JVR thus far has been the best garbage scorer on our team. Moreover, I remember Grabovski being a pretty apt playmaker in his career season in the 10/11 campaign. Perhaps he opts to shoot because he has lost trust in his linemates to score? Kulemin hasn't looked the same on the offensive side of the puck since that season, Frattin was too green in his extended time on Grabovski's line last season and McClement is a defensive specialist.

I think a line of:
Kessel-Grabovski-JVR

Could possibly re-surge Grabovski's offensive prowess and put Bozak in a much more suitable position in the process (Centering a shutdown line of Kulemin-Bozak-MacArthur).
A myth is a story that's handed down. I stated my observations. I'm open to counter arguments, but you'll need to state or reference them. Just because they exist is not reason enough to discredit my opinion.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:22 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BallHockeyLegend View Post
A myth is a story that's handed down. I stated my observations. I'm open to counter arguments, but you'll need to state or reference them. Just because they exist is not reason enough to discredit my opinion.
That's fair. I'll have to do some HFBoards research later.. Or I'll look at their time together and make my own post.

I'll report back later today or tomorrow.. Got some real work to do too

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:35 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
That's fair. I'll have to do some HFBoards research later.. Or I'll look at their time together and make my own post.

I'll report back later today or tomorrow.. Got some real work to do too
Here's some to get you started:


Grabovski from Kessel.


Grabovski from Kessel.


Kulemin from Kessel & Grabovski.


Grabovski from Kessel & Liles.

Man, guys. It's like Kessel is using his playmaking ability so the sniper Grabovski can pot goals. Hmm...

Not to mention there have been many shifts during line changes where they've cycled strongly and created chances that weren't goals. These above goals are also from when they were worse players than they are now - there is no reason NOT to try them together.

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03-18-2013, 12:47 PM
  #32
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I remember one of the first games Carlyle coached in Toronto, Grabovski had a beast-mode game and RC was gushing about how he was a "warrior" in the post game conference. I could see how Grabovski could get in RC's doghouse, the coach has seen him play at that level and comes to expect it every game, and we all know Grabovski does not consistently bring the effort that he can and needs to every game.

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Old
03-18-2013, 03:40 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BallHockeyLegend View Post
Carlyle likes players on their strong side, when Lupul was in Anaheim Carlyle refused to play him on the left wing with Getzlaf and Perry because he's a right handed shot. When Lupul came to Toronto, he was put on the top line with Kessel regardless of it not being his strong side and put up a ton of points because he was playing on the top line and found chemistry with Kessel. If Kessel had been a left wing, there's little doubt in my mind that Lupul would have played right wing with the same level of effectiveness.
I think his best attributes are best suited for his off-wing. He doesn't have the speed to be as effective from the RW but he's not afraid to go to the dirty areas and his great shot is much better utilized from LW.

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Old
03-18-2013, 04:07 PM
  #34
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Classic Grabo quote today:


The Leafs forward was also asked if he is trying to live up to his contract and he had the quote of the year:

“I don’t spend the money, my wife spends the money…sorry wife.”

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03-18-2013, 04:39 PM
  #35
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It isn't being tried out, because it'd be foolish. Grabovski is actually quite strong as a centre. He is being tasked to take on the opposition's top line for a reason.

Kessel should have Grabovski as his centre. He doesn't need a playmaking-biased centremen, but rather a scorer. Most elite centres are not necessarily biased towards passing. It would be better if Kessel had a Eric Staal, Carter-type with size, but Grabs plays much bigger than his size and is stronger defensively imo.

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Old
03-18-2013, 04:52 PM
  #36
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I think Grabo needs to stop skating with his head down.
I think he's had one too many pops to the head and is starting to hear foot steps all over the ice.

He doesn't have that 'warrior' mentality anymore.

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03-18-2013, 04:57 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Trigger96 View Post
I think Grabo needs to stop skating with his head down.
I think he's had one too many pops to the head and is starting to hear foot steps all over the ice.

He doesn't have that 'warrior' mentality anymore.
Warriors take on top defensive tasks. He's done that, and has been trying to take the opposition zone at the same time.

Most, if not all, players are going to exhausted doing that. It is up to his linemates to capitalize on the lose pucks. The fact is, it's a LOT better than simply lobbing the puck to the opposition zone. A guy who can possess the puck, in traffic, isn't someone we should be trashing.

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Old
03-18-2013, 05:05 PM
  #38
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I am pissed off at Carlyle! They need to play a guy over $5M with better players and have grabo play more offensive roll! Ugh u Carlyle. I cant stand him.

What worth does a 5M player have not paying much? Hardly anything i bet. What a waste.

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Old
03-18-2013, 08:58 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonMorrison View Post
Here's some to get you started:

1.
Grabovski from Kessel.

2.
Grabovski from Kessel.

3.
Kulemin from Kessel & Grabovski.

4.
Grabovski from Kessel & Liles.

Man, guys. It's like Kessel is using his playmaking ability so the sniper Grabovski can pot goals. Hmm...

Not to mention there have been many shifts during line changes where they've cycled strongly and created chances that weren't goals. These above goals are also from when they were worse players than they are now - there is no reason NOT to try them together.
First of all, assuming these YT videos weren't copy/paste from somewhere else, let me say I appreciate you taking the time to dig up evidence for your case. With that being said, I don't want to come off like a jerk going through them one by one writing them off, but that's exactly what I'm going to do.

1. It was a 4-on-4 play, Dion gained the zone and held it in order to setup a play. 5-on-5 this wouldn't happen as often.

2. This one was a beauty pass from Kessel to Grabo. I don't doubt Kessel can setup his linemates with tap ins, and I don't doubt Grabo can find the back of the net. That's why I'd personally want to put him with Kadri, it's what Kadri does. Kessel needs someone to give HIM the tap ins, not the other way around.

3. This was a broken play from the get go. I dismiss this type of play not because it doesn't support what I believe, but rather because chemistry isn't about talented players finding the back of the net on a broken play. It's about how they play within the system that the coach wants them to play in.

4. This is another 4-on-4 play, so I have a hard time counting this. Again, the defensemen (this time I believe it was Komisarek) gains the zone for them then it turns into a broken play. Grabo goes behind the net on the boards to retrieve the puck, it happens to fly out to Kessel who's alone in front of the net, he draws two defenders, loses the puck, Liles is pinching because it's 4-on-4 and feeds Grabovski the puck where he crashes the net and scores on pure individual effort on a nifty goal.

I don't want to argue with moving goal posts, so let me make it clear - and for the record, I am open to education here, if my definition of chemistry lacks insight, please let me know - what I consider chrmistry is a line that is able to play well within a system. How to gain the zone, how to keep offensive pressure, how to break out in the neutral zone, etc. Broken plays, 4-on-4 and tap ins are pretty much the sum of what I don't consider legitimate chemistry.

Hope that makes sense.

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Old
03-18-2013, 08:59 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
That's fair. I'll have to do some HFBoards research later.. Or I'll look at their time together and make my own post.

I'll report back later today or tomorrow.. Got some real work to do too
Lol no prob, I work online myself and I find the productivity of my days is based on how much time I spend on here.

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03-18-2013, 09:04 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BallHockeyLegend View Post
First of all, assuming these YT videos weren't copy/paste from somewhere else, let me say I appreciate you taking the time to dig up evidence for your case. With that being said, I don't want to come off like a jerk going through them one by one writing them off, but that's exactly what I'm going to do.

1. It was a 4-on-4 play, Dion gained the zone and held it in order to setup a play. 5-on-5 this wouldn't happen as often.

2. This one was a beauty pass from Kessel to Grabo. I don't doubt Kessel can setup his linemates with tap ins, and I don't doubt Grabo can find the back of the net. That's why I'd personally want to put him with Kadri, it's what Kadri does. Kessel needs someone to give HIM the tap ins, not the other way around.

3. This was a broken play from the get go. I dismiss this type of play not because it doesn't support what I believe, but rather because chemistry isn't about talented players finding the back of the net on a broken play. It's about how they play within the system that the coach wants them to play in.

4. This is another 4-on-4 play, so I have a hard time counting this. Again, the defensemen (this time I believe it was Komisarek) gains the zone for them then it turns into a broken play. Grabo goes behind the net on the boards to retrieve the puck, it happens to fly out to Kessel who's alone in front of the net, he draws two defenders, loses the puck, Liles is pinching because it's 4-on-4 and feeds Grabovski the puck where he crashes the net and scores on pure individual effort on a nifty goal.

I don't want to argue with moving goal posts, so let me make it clear - and for the record, I am open to education here, if my definition of chemistry lacks insight, please let me know - what I consider chrmistry is a line that is able to play well within a system. How to gain the zone, how to keep offensive pressure, how to break out in the neutral zone, etc. Broken plays, 4-on-4 and tap ins are pretty much the sum of what I don't consider legitimate chemistry.

Hope that makes sense.
Fair points - all those goals were scored in the middle of line changes. My point is that people keep perpetuating the myth that they have no chemistry when they've literally spent 1.41% of their time together playing on the same line TWO years ago. I don't want to break that down but that's something like 4 to 5 games, again two years ago. I see no harm in testing their chemistry again.

1.41% is from http://www.leftwinglock.com/line-com...gametype=ALL#A

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Old
03-18-2013, 09:07 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by BallHockeyLegend View Post
I'm 99% sure we're in agreement here. I said Grabo used to be a 30/30 player, I didn't mean to say I'd expect that out of him playing in a shut down role in Carlyle's defensive system. I said it's not like he has stone hands, he has proven in the past he can score. Going forward the best way to reignite him would be to put him on wing in a top 6 role, since the center spots are taken.
The longer he struggles the less he is valuable on the open market, could have gotten a 1st rd pick last year for him, this year we are probably looking at a B prospect or a 2nd rd pick. This slide has gone all the way back to his last 10 games when Kule went out to injury, we can assume once RC put in his system, Grabo has just gone on a downward spiral.

When RC came in, he had a few big games, probably due to the fact the Leafs never had a chance to install a new system, but now that we have, he looks anything but the player he was. He needs a change to a higher pace style, I think he could look reasonable in Vancouver, a push the pace team.

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03-18-2013, 09:21 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
The longer he struggles the less he is valuable on the open market, could have gotten a 1st rd pick last year for him, this year we are probably looking at a B prospect or a 2nd rd pick. This slide has gone all the way back to his last 10 games when Kule went out to injury, we can assume once RC put in his system, Grabo has just gone on a downward spiral.

When RC came in, he had a few big games, probably due to the fact the Leafs never had a chance to install a new system, but now that we have, he looks anything but the player he was. He needs a change to a higher pace style, I think he could look reasonable in Vancouver, a push the pace team.
I understand the case for trade, and I don't violently disagree with it, but I am opposed to it simply because... buy low, sell high. Put him on a line with Kadri, give him some tap in goals, pad the stats, etc and then trade him for that first rounder. Someone on the main board offered David Booth and Jordan Schroeder for Mikhail Grabovski and a 2nd. I don't know a lot about David Booth or Jordan Schroeder other than what the typical HF knows (Booth from Florida, considered to have upside, traded to Vancouver, hasn't taken the next step, perhaps overpaid? and Schroeder being a first round pick with potential, centermen) but if a trade like that is available I'd take it. Schroeder is the first round pick and Booth is yet another winger, throw him on the third line with Bozak and Kulemin. I digress, point being I'd only rather play Grabo on Kadri's wing to try and reingnite because I don't like selling stock when it's at an all time low. I don't think Grabo's career is over, if he goes somewhere else that pursues him for the second line center role I believe he'll rebound nicely. I'd rather get value for that.

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03-18-2013, 09:23 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by BonMorrison View Post
Fair points - all those goals were scored in the middle of line changes. My point is that people keep perpetuating the myth that they have no chemistry when they've literally spent 1.41% of their time together playing on the same line TWO years ago. I don't want to break that down but that's something like 4 to 5 games, again two years ago. I see no harm in testing their chemistry again.

1.41% is from http://www.leftwinglock.com/line-com...gametype=ALL#A
I think part of them not even trying them together is because one of them would have to change their game big time. You can't just tell two players to go on the ice and do whatever they want (aside from Crosby/Malkin or Datsyuk/Zetterburg etc) so within their skill sets, what kind of game plan do you come up with for them? Now in addition to considering both Kessel and Grabo's somewhat narrow skill sets, you also have to factor in Carlyle's very stubborn coaching style.

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03-19-2013, 01:12 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by BallHockeyLegend View Post
[...]
2. This one was a beauty pass from Kessel to Grabo. I don't doubt Kessel can setup his linemates with tap ins, and I don't doubt Grabo can find the back of the net. That's why I'd personally want to put him with Kadri, it's what Kadri does. Kessel needs someone to give HIM the tap ins, not the other way around.[...]
Hockey has evolved greatly. We don't need pure playmakers anymore. We need players who can distribute and score. There is a reason why Crosby refined his shot after his first season.

Kadri needs to refine his shot as well. That's the more ideal player for Kessel. One that can pot his assists as well. Sure, he'll benefit from a crafty passer, but it'll have more to do with keeping the opposition zone busy. Otherwise, simply passing to Kessel is going to allow the opposition to neutralize scoring by marking him.

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03-19-2013, 01:49 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by The_Chosen_One View Post
Hockey has evolved greatly. We don't need pure playmakers anymore. We need players who can distribute and score. There is a reason why Crosby refined his shot after his first season.

Kadri needs to refine his shot as well. That's the more ideal player for Kessel. One that can pot his assists as well. Sure, he'll benefit from a crafty passer, but it'll have more to do with keeping the opposition zone busy. Otherwise, simply passing to Kessel is going to allow the opposition to neutralize scoring by marking him.
I think you may have misunderstood not only what you quoted, but my entire position in this thread.

I feel it's a smarter to move to put Grabo on Kadri's wing with the following lines:

JVR Bozak Kessel
Grabo Kadri Lupul
Komarov McClement Kulemin

I didn't (mean to) imply that Kadri should be Kessel's center on the first line. The reason for that is obvious, it's too much too quick. The Leafs showed tremendous patience with Kadri in the minors, he's been put in a place to succeed. A 30 game sample of sheltered minutes is not enough to throw him on the first line. He still has defensive deficiencies, he still turns over the puck, he's still not good enough on the faceoff, etc. It's a much better idea to leave him where he is with his sheltered minutes, allow him to get more experience and work on his game in the off season and work him into it. You have to account for the fact that Toronto is a pressure cooker, and he's come out of it alive so far, but what happens when he has a bad streak of 10 games? 20 games? As the first line center, he'd be crucified. He's not ready for that yet.

In the post I quoted I said that Kessel can give anyone on his line tap ins, and Kadri is the same for his line. The difference between the two is that Kessel is an undisputed first line winger, and Kadri is a young center men. I'd much rather put Grabo on Kadri's second line wing rather than have him as Kessel's first line centermen, for that reason.

It's getting late, hopefully I'm making sense.

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03-19-2013, 03:47 AM
  #47
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I perplexed by Grabo this season. I don't know if he really fits with this team anymore, but I still like him and what he brings to the table. Plus if we pick up any injury to centre we would look really thin without Grabo around. I dunno if his new role suits him although he's doing a decent job. Kadri's emergence and Bozak playing well (kinda, face-offs) is making lineups a bit difficult for RC at the moment.

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03-19-2013, 05:38 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by BallHockeyLegend View Post
I think you may have misunderstood not only what you quoted, but my entire position in this thread.

I feel it's a smarter to move to put Grabo on Kadri's wing with the following lines:

JVR Bozak Kessel
Grabo Kadri Lupul
Komarov McClement Kulemin

I didn't (mean to) imply that Kadri should be Kessel's center on the first line. The reason for that is obvious, it's too much too quick. The Leafs showed tremendous patience with Kadri in the minors, he's been put in a place to succeed. A 30 game sample of sheltered minutes is not enough to throw him on the first line. He still has defensive deficiencies, he still turns over the puck, he's still not good enough on the faceoff, etc. It's a much better idea to leave him where he is with his sheltered minutes, allow him to get more experience and work on his game in the off season and work him into it. You have to account for the fact that Toronto is a pressure cooker, and he's come out of it alive so far, but what happens when he has a bad streak of 10 games? 20 games? As the first line center, he'd be crucified. He's not ready for that yet.

In the post I quoted I said that Kessel can give anyone on his line tap ins, and Kadri is the same for his line. The difference between the two is that Kessel is an undisputed first line winger, and Kadri is a young center men. I'd much rather put Grabo on Kadri's second line wing rather than have him as Kessel's first line centermen, for that reason.

It's getting late, hopefully I'm making sense.
Grabovski on Kadri's wing would seem too stacked. Kadri has great chemistry with Frattin or MacArthur. I think someone like Lupul is required to legitimize the line.

JVR and Kessel seem to be the ones in a bind. Kessel isn't able to play an unrestricted game. JVR isn't allowed to obstruct the goalie, because he's the only one playing a remotely physical game. Bozak is a top six winger, but he isn't crashing the net, attacking, like Eric Staal. Grabs is more comparable even though he lacks his reach, size or the natural goal-scoring ability.

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03-19-2013, 02:39 PM
  #49
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Because we have lots of wingers.

But are weak up the middle. That $5.5 million a year pricetag will scare off a lot of GM's. What was his best season again? 47 pts,wow.

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03-19-2013, 03:09 PM
  #50
FreeBird
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[QUOTE=BallHockeyLegend;61856935]Grabo is on the checking line by default. When there's defensive zone starts, Carlyle doesn't put Kessel's line or Kadri's line out there for obvious reasons. Same goes for fourth line.

Grabo has no chemistry with Kessel, so he can't be on the first line and swap out Bozak.

Kadri has chemistry with whoever he plays with. Grabo doesn't have chemistry with Kessel because he's a shoot first player. Kadri is the best playmaker on the team this year, thus far.

Why not try this?

JVR Bozak Kessel
Grabo Kadri Lupul
Komarov McClement Kulemin
McClaren _____ Orr

Nonis can get a veteran fourth line center who can win face offs. Either keep MacArthur for injuries/playoffs or trade him since he's a UFA for picks or whatever.

Thoughts?[/Q

After playing Kadri on the wing for two years they learned their lesson, hopefully.

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