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Old
03-18-2013, 08:54 PM
  #801
Jonimaus
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Jonimaus
Now you showed how you dont understand KHL and russian foreign policy/strategies in general. What seems a nonsense for outsiders is not nonsense for Russians who plan something for future. I could give you examples from 20th century but dont wan to be off topic.

Do you think KHL´s management are bunch of idiots who dont know what to do?
If yes, KHL will collapse within a few years. Amateurs can not govern such league. If no, why does KHL want club in Milan, Zagreb, Bratislava, Prague, projected Switzerland, Norway, Finland,Germany, Gdansk? Try to answer it. If you were KHL, why would you choose these locations?
1: No I don't understand Russian foreign policy. Judging by your post you don't either. If the Russian foreign policy is to invest a ton of money in things that probably won't pay off and even if it does it will still cost money and generate none, then I don't know what to say.

2: I do think KHLs management are idiots. If I was KHL I would not even consider half of the locations you mentioned. I can not think of any logical explanation to why they want to plant a team in Milan as an example. It makes 0 sense to me. As I've written, it's a high risk - low reward deal. I would not be surprised to see the KHL, not collapse, but cut several of the expansion teams.

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Aren't most of the AHL Swedes fairly young as well? They have plenty of time to get accustomed to the play in small rinks in AHL.
I wouldn't say fairly young, I'd say very young. Unless the KHL comes and throws a million dollar contract their way, they won't give up on their NHL dream to play in the KHL.

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Old
03-18-2013, 09:07 PM
  #802
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I wouldn't say fairly young, I'd say very young. Unless the KHL comes and throws a million dollar contract their way, they won't give up on their NHL dream to play in the KHL.
A lot of them area also high picks which means they'll get a chance in the NHL as well.

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Old
03-18-2013, 09:08 PM
  #803
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Old
03-18-2013, 10:10 PM
  #804
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Another misconception by certain poster that Finns and Swedes want to see their best players playing at home. No Finn (well maybe some fans of his former team) wanted Sami Vatanen to play another season in Finland because we recognize that he needs to play in a better league to develop better and fulfill his potential. We want our best players to play in the best league in the world so that we'd have a better national team.
Frankly, It just surprised me a bit. The way of thinking of Finns and Swedes is quite strange.
Because this situation (NHL-European leagues) until recently reminded me feudalism. There are master and vassals. Master always gets the best from the vassals almost for nothing. Do you think it is fair? When players Ovi's Malkin's caliber went for 200 thousand $. Have we to do something to change it or live with it?
I thought everybody in Europe would approve the foundation of the competitive league but I see reverse reaction.
In 1990s and 2000s I also thought that all good players eventually will follow overseas to play in the best league in the world. But now, look at Malkin. This season in the KHL he played excellent hockey, he played with Mozyakin, Kulemin. He enjoyed hockey. I don't talk about money. This line, I still think was most spectacular to watch both in the NHL and the KHL this season. Right now in the NHL he is struggling with left wingers carousel: Tangradi, Boychuck and others.
If you play in the NHL it doesn't automatically mean that you play your best possible hockey.


Last edited by od71: 03-18-2013 at 11:12 PM.
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Old
03-18-2013, 10:19 PM
  #805
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
1: No I don't understand Russian foreign policy. Judging by your post you don't either. If the Russian foreign policy is to invest a ton of money in things that probably won't pay off and even if it does it will still cost money and generate none, then I don't know what to say.

2: I do think KHLs management are idiots. If I was KHL I would not even consider half of the locations you mentioned. I can not think of any logical explanation to why they want to plant a team in Milan as an example. It makes 0 sense to me. As I've written, it's a high risk - low reward deal. I would not be surprised to see the KHL, not collapse, but cut several of the expansion teams.


I wouldn't say fairly young, I'd say very young. Unless the KHL comes and throws a million dollar contract their way, they won't give up on their NHL dream to play in the KHL.
Both of you raise some valid points:
-Is Milan the best place to place a KHL team, no and there are better places for expansion.
-However, the KHL has progressed well over the past several years and has become a much stronger league and the management is by no means stupid.
-Are some expansion teams going to fail, probably yes, not every attempt is going to be a success.
-However, if the KHL continues on the same track, they have a great chance to successfully integrate European teams into the system and strengthen the league even more.

A side note, for the KHL to expand more into Europe I think that the management should slowly transition itself to be viewed as a European league rather than a russian league.

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Old
03-18-2013, 10:22 PM
  #806
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post

2: I do think KHLs management are idiots. If I was KHL I would not even consider half of the locations you mentioned. I can not think of any logical explanation to why they want to plant a team in Milan as an example. It makes 0 sense to me. As I've written, it's a high risk - low reward deal. I would not be surprised to see the KHL, not collapse, but cut several of the expansion teams.

It seems we have a cultural disconnect here. I hate to go on a bit of a tangent and i don't want to offend any one but this needs to be said as it's the reason for our divergent view points.

You mind set is why The USSR, and not one of our short sighted Scandinavian neighbors, made it to space first. While Sputnik was flying overhead and Yuri Gagarin was floating in space, people like you said to them selves, "Pffft...why would you want to leave earth? We have always stayed on earth, no one will want to go to space! No reason to go! Who will pay for it?!?!" Luckily there are others in the world who understand that to gain something you need to risk something. Even our Latvian friends, who institutionally hate Russia as a country, are brave enough to venture into something bigger then the comfortable corners of their own land. What is your excuse? Honestly I think you guys are coming off as short sighted and cowardly and if you stay this way, the progression of European hockey will leave you in the dust.

Ok, You don't understand why the KHL is going to non traditional hockey markets. Why? Because you don't care about the expansion of our sport, you don't care about making a great league in Europe, you are content with your local team being a big fish in a small pond and having the NHL or the KHL taking all you best players out of your country. Then you say to your self when your best players leave, "well it's good for that player to be playing against better opposition!" like some sort of beaten wife that justifies why she deserves her harsh treatment.

The SEL is a great league, there are some great teams there so I won't be one of these guys that says that Amur and Vityaz will beat every team in the SEL. But lets look at it this way. Up until the KHL came to be, the SEL was the best league in Europe. It was flat out better than the RSL. I think in those days the SEL champs would beat all the teams in the RSL. But these days, just a few short years from the SEL's dominance, that is no longer the case. I don't think the SEL teams can beat the best Russian clubs, but that's not the shocking thing. The real question is that now can you beat Slovakia's best team Slovan? The Czechs best team Lev? Latvia's Dynamo? Belarus' Dynamo? Kazakhstan's Barys? Ukraine's Donbass? I wouldn't be so sure. What is it going to take for you guys to step it up? Are you gonna wait till the point where your clubs are worse then teams from Italy and Croatia?

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Old
03-18-2013, 10:46 PM
  #807
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About the space thing: It's because Russia/Soviet chose to invest money into it. Sweden and Finland as small countries can not fund such projects without taking money from other things, and neither could USA or Soviet. Soviet was a 3rd world country and the people were starving, and the government decided to spend billions of dollars on a space program. When you think about it, was that the best way to spend the money? You may say short-sighted, we here think about surpressed russians who could say nothing about it or they would get shot, while the poor starved to death because the money went to space or military. 3rd world countries should aim at feeding the people. Maybe you're a big fan of north korea, they seem to want to spend money on flashy buildings instead of the well being of the people.

Sweden can not compete with any sports league of bigger countries because of our population. Most of the income comes from TV deals and commercial, and because of the population, commercials generates less money in Sweden and TV deals do not pay as much.

Sweden follows its stars in NHL. It's exciting to see how they fare against the best players in the world. In 50 years from now no hockey interested person outside of Russia will remember Radulov, but everyone will remember Datsyk, Malkin, Ovechkin. To take your "big fish in a small pond", that's Radulov.

Sweden will never be left in the dust, because Sweden produces some of the best players in the world. SEL will never be the best league in the world due to population as I've mentioned, and during the next 50 years neither will KHL (who knows after that, I don't even care).

What comes off as funny is you seem to think KHL is doing this for the good of european hockey.

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Old
03-18-2013, 10:54 PM
  #808
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
About the space thing: It's because Russia/Soviet chose to invest money into it. Sweden and Finland as small countries can not fund such projects without taking money from other things, and neither could USA or Soviet. Soviet was a 3rd world country and the people were starving, and the government decided to spend billions of dollars on a space program. When you think about it, was that the best way to spend the money? You may say short-sighted, we here think about surpressed russians who could say nothing about it or they would get shot, while the poor starved to death because the money went to space or military. 3rd world countries should aim at feeding the people. Maybe you're a big fan of north korea, they seem to want to spend money on flashy buildings instead of the well being of the people.

Sweden can not compete with any sports league of bigger countries because of our population. Most of the income comes from TV deals and commercial, and because of the population, commercials generates less money in Sweden and TV deals do not pay as much.

Sweden follows its stars in NHL. It's exciting to see how they fare against the best players in the world. In 50 years from now no hockey interested person outside of Russia will remember Radulov, but everyone will remember Datsyk, Malkin, Ovechkin. To take your "big fish in a small pond", that's Radulov.

Sweden will never be left in the dust, because Sweden produces some of the best players in the world. SEL will never be the best league in the world due to population as I've mentioned, and during the next 50 years neither will KHL (who knows after that, I don't even care).

What comes off as funny is you seem to think KHL is doing this for the good of european hockey.
I suggest you look up the definition of the 3rd world. As you don't know what it means there is nothing much to say about the other nonsense in that part of your post.

I'm not saying you guys should compete with the KHL for which league is better, what I am saying it that now your club teams are inferior to clubs from Latvia, Slovakia, Czech, Kazakhstan, Belarus, Ukraine and soon to be worse than teams from Croatia and Italy. If that is not getting left in the dust I don't know what is.

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Old
03-18-2013, 10:55 PM
  #809
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I suggest you look up the definition of the 3rd world. As you don't know what it means there is nothing much to say about the other nonsense in that part of your post.

I'm not saying you guys should compete with the KHL for which league is better, what I am saying it that now your club teams are inferior to clubs from Latvia, Slovakia, Czech, Kazakhstan, Belarus, Ukraine and soon to be worse than teams from Croatia and Italy If that is not getting left in the dust I don't know what is.
No actually, I suggest you do that. I consider it that you have absolutely no counter argument to the rest of that part though, which is hilarious. You'll see the world better if you take off those white blue and red glasses.

If KHL keeps expanding like this, SEL teams will become even better compared to KHL teams than they are today. As I've mentioned previously, there are not enough players to support a league like that. It will become a watered down league with talent spread between way too many teams. Either that or it will become like the football leagues, 1-4 teams that domiante and win each year. In which case SEL teams will do even better.


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Old
03-18-2013, 11:00 PM
  #810
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
Sweden follows its stars in NHL. It's exciting to see how they fare against the best players in the world.
To watch the best from the remote corner. The hardest thing is to change psychology. In Russia we know it may be better than you when the time has changed from USSR to Russia. Some people will never change it.

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What comes off as funny is you seem to think KHL is doing this for the good of european hockey.
Please explain to us, less intelligent, how the KHL stops the progress of european hockey

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03-18-2013, 11:07 PM
  #811
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No actually, I suggest you do that. I consider it that you have absolutely no counter argument to the rest of that part though, which is hilarious. You'll see the world better if you take off those white blue and red glasses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_world

Why would I even discuss the Soviet Union with someone that thinks the USSR was a third world country, when that whole theory revolves around the USSR and it's allies being in the second world? I suggest you click that link and look at the countries in green (the 3rd world). Then tell the rest of the class where you live

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03-18-2013, 11:23 PM
  #812
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Originally Posted by VladNYC View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_world

Why would I even discuss the Soviet Union with someone that thinks the USSR was a third world country, when that whole theory revolves around the USSR and it's allies being in the second world? I suggest you click that link and look at the countries in green (the 3rd world). Then tell the rest of the class where you live
And you know aswell as I that this is not the definition of 3rd world we use anymore. But this has gone way off-topic, if you can't agree with me that Soviet was underdeveloped and poor compared to the western world then I don't know what to tell you.

But you're still avoiding like, 90% of my post because you disagreed with 10% of it. But hey, if you can't argue against it, I guess I win.

Quote:
Please explain to us, less intelligent, how the KHL stops the progress of european hockey
It doesn't. Did I write that? No, so why bring it up? Planting hockey teams in cities that can't afford one/doesn't care to have one does only good for european hockey, but it's not why KHL is doing it.

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Old
03-19-2013, 12:25 AM
  #813
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Please explain to us, less intelligent, how the KHL stops the progress of european hockey
Yeah, I mean look at all the success Latvia has enjoyed at the Worlds in recent years. Oh wait...

On a broader scale, dilution of talent in all leagues. Does any one really think there are enough quality players in Europe that a teams in Milan or Gdansk would be any better than the Ottawa Senator 20 years ago? If they manage to draw star players from other European leagues by overpaying them, than would in turn dilute those team or leagues of talent and then you'd end up with lesser competition in both the KHL and other leagues.


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Old
03-19-2013, 01:23 AM
  #814
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Yeah, I mean look at all the success Latvia has enjoyed at the Worlds in recent years. Oh wait...

On a broader scale, dilution of talent in all leagues. Does any one really think there are enough quality players in Europe that a teams in Milan or Gdansk would be any better than the Ottawa Senator 20 years ago? If they manage to draw star players from other European leagues by overpaying them, than would in turn dilute those team or leagues of talent and then you'd end up with lesser competition in both the KHL and other leagues.
KHL has existed 5 years there cannot be significant improvement because you cant raise young new hockey players in 5 years.

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03-19-2013, 01:47 AM
  #815
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Yeah, I mean look at all the success Latvia has enjoyed at the Worlds in recent years. Oh wait...

On a broader scale, dilution of talent in all leagues. Does any one really think there are enough quality players in Europe that a teams in Milan or Gdansk would be any better than the Ottawa Senator 20 years ago? If they manage to draw star players from other European leagues by overpaying them, than would in turn dilute those team or leagues of talent and then you'd end up with lesser competition in both the KHL and other leagues.
Care to explain why Latvia would have prospered without the KHL?
Mick Indrashis, one of the most talented young players in the KHL, plays in a high quality league. If he has possibility, if he is in demand he can move to the NHL. It's a free market, nobody can handcuff him to radiator. What's bad for him in the KHL?

To prosper on WC every country has to develop the system: build new ice rinks, draw in hockey more and more children. That's the problem, not the KHL.The KHL is just top of the iceberg, it's not panacea. If you think that all countries involved in the KHL immeduately become champions of the world, you are wrong. I see you want to put full responsibility on the KHL

Nobody says the KHL is ideal. Yes it has flaws, but it's only 5 yo.


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03-19-2013, 03:06 AM
  #816
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What comes off as funny is you seem to think KHL is doing this for the good of european hockey.
KHL does it in the first place for the benefit of Russian hockey, and then to Europe. And europa decides is best for them it will be or not. Apparently it is better for Europe if they themselves want the team to the league, and increased popularity in Slovakia and the Czech Republic. But the Finnish and Swedish championat generally does nothing to Europe, but his country. So it is not necessary here to blah blah blah. )))
Sry for my google translate)

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03-19-2013, 03:50 AM
  #817
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New interview with Mariusz Czerkawski (Olivia Gdansk)
http://www.sport-express.ru/newspape...6_4/?view=page
among other things, they want inaugurate bykov / zakharkin as coaches.

He said,
Members of the government,
Ministry of Sports,
and the National Olympic Committee, are all therefor and would support this project.

their current budget is about 8 mio. €. but he said this value will raise, when they get an official invitation.


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03-19-2013, 05:02 AM
  #818
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I can agree with you but it is not about what KHL should do, but what KHL has been doing Yes, KHL cares about Russia, therefore you have VHL, MHL. If KHL did not care, no VHL/MHL would be on place. KHL wants Vladivostok/Tyumen join league. Forget for 30 or so russian clubs in KHL, it is not reality.
Vorky, answer the question. How does it truely benefit Russian hockey. I am not asking for the reality of events, i am asking you to explain the benefits of these events. You can turn of MR PR man for one second?



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Yes, many fans outside Slovan/Lev care about these clubs since they play KHL. Media/television as well.
Any evidence for this?

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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
"It was for Russian fans to answer, and try and think from the other side"
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
That is your big problem. You try to think as ordinary fan. It is right, ok. But it is pointless. Does KHL change its aim if I dont agree with its steps? No. If you want to get KHL, you need to think like you were KHL. What does KHL want/need from Europe? 1) places which are good for living of european/american players. 2) lure as many talented players as possible. 3) get new markets=more revenue from tv deals etc. All this goals can be fullfill by creating a club lets say in Norway - you fullfill 1), 2), 3). Easy and simple. I have experiance with KHL, because I live in a country where KHL club is located, you dont.
I am not speaking from the KHL angle because i am not the KHL. The KHL motives are somewhat obvious, but i am asking you to think from the other side. Why would Sweden and Finland conform to this expansion? Where are the true benefits for them. Answer these questions please instead of going into KHL marketing mode everytime.




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You dont understand the topic. I talk about two things - 1) KHL as supporter of euro hockey in negotiations with NHL 2) KHL as league which want to be dominant in Europe. Two different things, you can not mixed them. Europe is feeder of KHL, I have written it for years.
I entitely understand the topic, and you entirely misunderstand and evade my points as usual. Instead of looking at every question from one angle, why don't you attempt to look at it from another angle. Where is the motivation and upside for Sweden/Finland here?

Europe is a feeder of everywhere on many levels. The best talent will be drained where the money is, and this process will happen on many talent levels. This is obvious. I am simply showing the irony here ; that Russian fans who feel ill will towards the NHL because of it's supposed European talent purge, want to do the same thing on the same level if they can. I have no problem with this ; it's how the market will always dictate things, rather, it's just great irony amongst some hypocrites.




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KHL is only league which can rival NHL. Can NHL increase its revenues? If there is football, basseball, basketball? If more and more latino-americans/africans/asians live in USA which dont care about hockey?
The KHL cannot remotely rival the NHL at this current time. The NA market is considerably bigger in population terms with considerably bigger consumer spending. Organisations are in some cases actually run to make considerable capital. NHL economics dwarf Russian hockey economics, and the strength of the Russain hockey economics come from a source that cannot and will not indefinitely back the building of infrastructure. If you think NHL capitalist model is flawed, well i couldn't even begin to think of an apt way to describe the KHL model, which is as close to self sustainable at the moment as i am to being made out of cabbage.

Your reference to different minority groups is somewhat irrelevant. The NHL doesn't have much influence on that group now, but has a solid set of consumers with considerably spending already. Plus, for those groups to really hurt the NHL, it's going to take 30-40-50 years plus. By that time Putin will be dead.

So the question isn't can the NHL increase it's revenues. The question is can the KHL be an actually sustainable business model? Nevermind the fact that for the KHL to truely compete with the NHL, it's needs a much bigger Russian economy, or much damaged North American economy.


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Do you know how russian plan? Do you know how big politics works? It is all very important, if you dont know it, you will not get KHL.
Are we discussing Stalinism? Vorky, you give the impression that you are some type of insider in the KHL, and that you possess this knowledge of politics and life that we cannot grasp. Stop being so naive.

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KHL is a proccess, many things has changed, new info appears etc. So of course, my point of view can change. Honestly, I would never think that polish club can join KHL. Now it is reality. I think I have a lot of info about KHL´s expansion, even infos which are not publicly available (my sources). So yes, I know I am talking about. All I say is a plan, not reality of next season. And all can be changed if something unforeseeable happens. It is not fair to insult me.
Vorky, the majority of the time your replies aren't even relative to the questions posed. I will ask this question time and time again until you give a response ; what are the benefits for Sweden and Finland? I know you're indoctrinated, but you can't be so blind to perpetually ignore what people ask you.

It's great that you have these KHL insider facts, but nobody has asked them from you.

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You write I did not answer your Qs.. I think I did. I have one simple Qs for you. Why Kurri plays exibitions for russian veteran´s team Gazprom Export? Why Kurri visits home matches of SKA? Why Fasel is a big friend of Medvedev and supporter of KHL´s expansion in last year or two? Why did Junior Club World Cup get IIHF sanction in 2nd year of existance?



sure.
I am asking for analytical reasons to why expansion is neccessary and prosperous for some nations. I understand that some things will happen, and that some things are somewhat inevitable. Still, whether they happen or not, i like to know why they should happen and what will be the impact.

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03-19-2013, 05:11 AM
  #819
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It seems we have a cultural disconnect here. I hate to go on a bit of a tangent and i don't want to offend any one but this needs to be said as it's the reason for our divergent view points.

You mind set is why The USSR, and not one of our short sighted Scandinavian neighbors, made it to space first. While Sputnik was flying overhead and Yuri Gagarin was floating in space, people like you said to them selves, "Pffft...why would you want to leave earth? We have always stayed on earth, no one will want to go to space! No reason to go! Who will pay for it?!?!" Luckily there are others in the world who understand that to gain something you need to risk something. Even our Latvian friends, who institutionally hate Russia as a country, are brave enough to venture into something bigger then the comfortable corners of their own land. What is your excuse? Honestly I think you guys are coming off as short sighted and cowardly and if you stay this way, the progression of European hockey will leave you in the dust.

Ok, You don't understand why the KHL is going to non traditional hockey markets. Why? Because you don't care about the expansion of our sport, you don't care about making a great league in Europe, you are content with your local team being a big fish in a small pond and having the NHL or the KHL taking all you best players out of your country. Then you say to your self when your best players leave, "well it's good for that player to be playing against better opposition!" like some sort of beaten wife that justifies why she deserves her harsh treatment.

The SEL is a great league, there are some great teams there so I won't be one of these guys that says that Amur and Vityaz will beat every team in the SEL. But lets look at it this way. Up until the KHL came to be, the SEL was the best league in Europe. It was flat out better than the RSL. I think in those days the SEL champs would beat all the teams in the RSL. But these days, just a few short years from the SEL's dominance, that is no longer the case. I don't think the SEL teams can beat the best Russian clubs, but that's not the shocking thing. The real question is that now can you beat Slovakia's best team Slovan? The Czechs best team Lev? Latvia's Dynamo? Belarus' Dynamo? Kazakhstan's Barys? Ukraine's Donbass? I wouldn't be so sure. What is it going to take for you guys to step it up? Are you gonna wait till the point where your clubs are worse then teams from Italy and Croatia?
We are asking for a non Russian-centric view. Why would Sweden, a hockey nation developing wonderful talents relative to their abilities, want to entirely change their eco system, and risk losing what they have?

Let me know when Latvia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Ukraine etc have more than one competitive team. Meanwhile, Sweden has many organisations that pump out excellent hockey talent within two competitive leagues.

Sweden can never keep it's best talent. The market dictates that. The best talent will always by and large go to the NHL. The problem you and many posters have is that you think Sweden/Finland are one big hockey collective. They are not. Fans of Brynas and AIK are not the same for instance. Unlike Latvia etc, Sweden has many good hockey organisations, and not all of them can join the KHL. It's funny that you mention Sweden needs to join the KHL to compete, yet what about the majority of organisations that are left behind?

Unlike smaller nations, Sweden has an eco system to worry about. It's sad, but no one really cares what happens in Latvia, Belarus etc outside of their KHL organisations because there are basically no other good organisations.

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03-19-2013, 05:43 AM
  #820
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Believe me, there are a lot of news from the KHL in Swedish media. And as an example, when they published the article about Stavanger Oilers from Norway joining the KHL, many Swedes commented "why can't we have a team in the KHL?", "This is wonderful, we can visit their games", "We should get one too" etc. etc.

www.hockeysverige.se, Swedens biggest hockey news website publish KHL-news frequently. Game-re-caps, analyses, best of the week etc.

Both Aftonbladet and Expressen(Swedens two biggest newspapers) has KHL-bloggers and sections that covers everything from the KHL. Most of it related to Swedish, Finnish and Norwegian players. And the Russian super stars.

So that Swedish guy who earlier moaned about 0 interest of KHL in Sweden and 0 attention in Swedish media must live under a rock.

I live in Sweden too, and I am for a Swedish team in the KHL, so he is wrong there too, by stating that no-one wants to see a KHL team from Sweden.

Swedish hockey won't loose anything with 1-3 teams in the KHL. The junior leagues will be intact, Elitserien will be intact, Allsvenskan will be intact along with everything else.

The only difference is that players that are too good for Elitserien and the very best Swedes at that level will more likely play for the Swedish KHL team, in Sweden, than in a completely different country. Be it NHL, AHL or the KHL or even NLA.

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03-19-2013, 05:53 AM
  #821
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I will reply your post #776, but I will want to start with this. Your arguments are short-sighted.

Quote:
How does it truely benefit Russian hockey.
More clubs from Europe which can lure better players, especially Europeans, will increase level of league. The russian players will benefit as well. The same like NHL did with Europeans in 90ers.

I am not Russian, why should I care about russian hockey? I care about following: 1) as many best Slovak/Czech players as possible to play in Slovakia/Czech rep instead of going to overseas. And I dont care if they stay to play slovak/czech league or europeans league or KHL. The most important thing is I can watch them live on regular basis. 2) hockey to grow in Europe, especially my country.

Quote:
I am not speaking from the KHL angle because i am not the KHL. The KHL motives are somewhat obvious, but i am asking you to think from the other side. Why would Sweden and Finland conform to this expansion?
Does KHL change its attitude if I talk what is ideal according to my point of view? Why should I think like that? Will I change something? No.

What is better for Sweden/Finland? I will quote this

Quote:
Originally Posted by metmag View Post
I think the point he was trying to make was, that you either have a Swedish club in the KHL and have your top players play there, or choose not to have a club and see your top players leave to neighboring countries like Norway or Poland(if they join)
If you think that top players of Elitserien do not opt KHL clubs in Gdansk, Oslo or so, you are naive. Of course, not immidiatelly, not everyone. It is all about money, level of play and living conditions. MONEY - bigger than in Elitserien, LEVEL of PLAY - better than in Elitserien (not every game of course), LIVING COND. - Oslo and Stockholm are not so different, right? If you dont get it, it is not my problem.



Stats of previous Elitserien´s season. Guy at 2nd possition is in NHL now, guys at 3,6,7,10, 11 are in KHL (some failed). Guys at 5,9 are rumoured to join KHL next season. So, this is how it works.. you are great in Elitserien, KHL/NHL clubs can lure you for next season. It is good for Elitserien if all best players leaving? Yes, it is good for developing juniors. I am all for it, I love junior playing huge minutes. If you want your league to be developing league, so ok. If you want to have real high level hockey, it is not so good.

I could screen SM-Liiga´s stats, but I will not waste my time for you. Sorry.

Yes, I dont like "exodus" of players from my league to another every year. This has been happening Elitserien/SM-Liiga for years, do you like it? Maybe finns/swedes have no problem with it, but I have. I give you an example of short-sighted point of view. Maybe comparable to Sweden/Finland´s choice to have or not an KHL team. Slovak hockey federation refused permission to one new slovak team to join MHL for 12/13 season. Ok, federation wanted to support domestic jr league. What happened? MHL team in Budapest was created and majority of roster consist of Slovaks. Slovaks who could play for slovak MHL team or slovak jr league but... but they they play MHL in Hungary. I can imagine the same in senior level in Sweden/Finland... nowadays a few best players of Elitserien/SM-Liiga choose KHL to play somewhere in Russia/Ukraine/etc where are not ideal living conditions for them. Can you imagine they refuse to play for KHL team in Norway or Denmark? I dont. Yes, not all.

Would be great if you stop insulting posters, me including. It is not fair from you. You might not agree with someone, but stop insulting people. That is a reason why I consider rest of your post not worthy to be replied. So please dont repeat yourself that I did not answer you. I will, when you change your behaviour.


Last edited by vorky: 03-19-2013 at 06:33 AM.
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03-19-2013, 06:06 AM
  #822
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Quote:
Unlike smaller nations, Sweden has an eco system to worry about.
Yes. On the other hand, why to sell best players for peanuts? or for free because players have opt out clause? I say you, it MIGHT ruin this swedish eco system. I dont say it happen, but it might.

I heard this sentence: "sweden is a nation on vacation". What is context? Sweden sold its resources to other countries for peanuts in past. It is their mentality, I accept it. I can see the same attitude in hockey, swedish clubs raise great players and sell them for peanuts. Not good for swedish clubs from long-term perspective.

Quote:
It's sad, but no one really cares what happens in Latvia, Belarus etc outside of their KHL organisations because there are basically no other good organisations.
If I was citizen of Latvia, I would care as hockey fan. Developing of players is job of KHL or hockey federation?

hockeyamateur
thx for evidence. It is interesting that swedish media care about KHL if Sweden dont have team here. It says about something... yes, it is normal that swedish media care about nordic players in KHL. Slovak/Czech media do the same with NHL and KHL (much more space in media than NHL)

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03-19-2013, 06:25 AM
  #823
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I'll add my two cents. I think Swedish KHL team(s) are only matter of time. Clubs like Slovan (yes, I'm aware there are no real comparable for them in Sweden) will be great inspiration to some club owners with a bit of ambition, that proves KHL team can actually be sustainable. Yes additional sponsor money will be necessary (and the teams will never boast budgets of most lunatic current Russian club owners) but if it can be found in Slovakia there's no reason for not to found in Sweden.

At risk of sounding cynical, I'll say that eventually KHL anyway will accept only teams from bigger cities, so fans of Modo can sleep tight, they will be able to enjoy their local rivalries with teams that will be participating in Elitserien after KHL expansion anyway. Even the biggest of sceptics amongst Swedes admit admit that Malmo eventually could pull a KHL move, also new team(s) can be placed in Stockholm or any other truly major Swedish city if current brands of the respective cities will stay orthodox. In whatever fashion this KHL expansion arrives to Sweden, I'm pretty sure it will take over Sweden pretty quickly just like it did with Slovakia this year. For better or worse, I don't know.

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03-19-2013, 06:39 AM
  #824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
J17 Vs Proclamation
I will reply your post #776, but I will want to start with this. Your arguments are short-sighted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
More clubs from Europe which can lure better players, especially Europeans, will increase level of league. The russian players will benefit as well. The same like NHL did with Europeans in 90ers.
The best Europeans will still go to the NHL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I am not Russian, why should I care about russian hockey? I care about following: 1) as many best Slovak/Czech players as possible to play in Slovakia/Czech rep instead of going to overseas. And I dont care if they stay to play slovak/czech league or europeans league or KHL. The most important thing is I can watch them live on regular basis. 2) hockey to grow in Europe, especially my country.
Fair enough.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Does KHL change its attitude if I talk what is ideal according to my point of view? Why should I think like that? Will I change something? No.
Just answer the damn question.

And top Swedish players won't play in a KHL club other NHL club.






Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
If you think that top players of Elitserien do not opt KHL clubs in Gdansk, Oslo or so, you are naive. Of course, not immidiatelly, not everyone. It is all about money, level of play and living conditions. MONEY - bigger than in Elitserien, LEVEL of PLAY - better than in Elitserien (not every game of course), LIVING COND. - Oslo and Stockholm are not so different, right? If you dont get it, it is not my problem.
Sigh Vorky. I have stated numerous times the market dictates where the players go I.E THE BEST WILL LEAVE THE SEL. Stop putting words in mouths.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post


Stats of previous Elitserien´s season. Guy at 2nd possition is in NHL now, guys at 3,6,7,10, 11 are in KHL (some failed). Guys at 5,9 are rumoured to join KHL next season. So, this is how it works.. you are great in Elitserien, KHL/NHL clubs can lure you for next season. It is good for Elitserien if all best players leaving? Yes, it is good for developing juniors. I am all for it, I love junior playing huge minutes. If you want your league to be developing league, so ok. If you want to have real high level hockey, it is not so good.
The SEL is and always will be a feeder league. This cannot be changed. Having 1/2 teams in the KHL from Sweden needs to be discussed in terms of all it's variable impacts. Something you repeatedly ignore and seemingly refuse to discuss/analyse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I could screen SM-Liiga´s stats, but I will not waste my time for you. Sorry.

Yes, I dont like "exodus" of players from my league to another every year. This has been happening Elitserien/SM-Liiga for years, do you like it? Maybe finns/swedes have no problem with it, but I have. I give you an example of short-sighted point of view. Maybe comparable to Sweden/Finland´s choice to have or not an KHL team. Slovak hockey federation refused permission to one new slovak team to join MHL for 12/13 season. Ok, federation wanted to support domestic jr league. What happened? MHL team in Budapest was created and majority of roster consist of Slovaks. Slovaks who could play for slovak MHL team or slovak jr league but... but they they play MHL in Hungary. I can imagine the same in senior level in Sweden/Finland... nowadays a few best players of Elitserien/SM-Liiga choose KHL to play somewhere in Russia/Ukraine/etc where are not ideal living conditions for them. Can you imagine they refuse to play for KHL team in Norway or Denmark? I dont. Yes, not all.
Money dictates where players play. Who knew ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Would be great if you stop insulting posters, me including. It is not fair from you. You might not agree with someone, but stop insulting people. That is a reason why I consider rest of your post not worthy to be replied. So please dot repeat yourself that I did not answer you. I will, when you change your behaviour.
Vorky, i will continue to be blunt with you, because you continue to be evasive and annoying to talk to. If you would give other people the courtesy of actually answering the questions at hand immediately rather than pointless PR, maybe people would give you the courtesy of respect.

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03-19-2013, 06:49 AM
  #825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
If I was citizen of Latvia, I would care as hockey fan. Developing of players is job of KHL or hockey federation?
The point is many clubs in Sweden produce players. Latvia has very few sources of good players. Sweden is a much much mucher large hockey eco system than Latvia, and should have no desire to form one or two superclubs in the KHL.

The discussion between strong domestic league or strong national team/development is interesting to me, since it's a current theme within English Premier league discussions. I personally, would prefer to watch a stronger domestic league, other a strong national team. However, a couple of Swedish teams joining the KHL isn't a domestic league. Hypothetically, say Malmo and Frolunda (Random selection) join the KHL, yes their fans arguably see slighlty higher level competition. However i dare say fans of other teams wouldn't care to watch.

Does the nation adopt the new KHL teams? How is the SEL that remains impacted?

Personally, i am skeptical on both. The Czech experiment in the KHL cannot be used as comparative data, since we are a year in and no strong conclusions can be formed. It will be interesting to re-visit the topic in 10 years assuming Slovan remains in the KHL, to see if any impact has been had on the domestic Slovak league, and if it makes things better or worse.

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