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Changing of Styles Since the Cup Run

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Old
03-19-2013, 03:03 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Hammer79 View Post
I can't believe so many people are pushing the panic button. This team has been in this position before, lots of teams go through these ups and downs. Look at the rest of the conference standings. Vancouver has the 3rd least amount of regulation losses. Wild, Red Wings, Kings, Blues, Sharks all have 10 regulation losses. The Canucks aren't exactly a lottery team.

Do they have issues? Clearly, they could use a 3C and a RHD. Missing Kesler for a majority of the season hasn't helped either. Is it time to blow up the roster, fire all the coaches and rebuild? Not by a long shot.
The panic button for this season is now. There are 8 games left until the deadline and only 12 games after. If we slump into the deadline it could all be over. I normally love Gillis waiting out other GMs but it's backfired pretty heavily this year.

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03-19-2013, 03:17 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Royal Canuck View Post
I think that Sundin's tenure in Vancouver was a lot like Messier's. And that's not a good comparison.
Seriously? Both Sedins have talked about how Sundin helped them raise their game and Kesler finally broke out. The idea of comparing Sundin to Messier is so completely and entirely laughable it is ludicrous.. Messier destroyed this team while Sundin taught them how to raise their games. Just a very very weird comparison.

Regarding the actual topic, I don't think the canucks have changed their approach at all. Gillis has been attempting to find a power forward like Kassian since day one, for example Bernier. The idea that Kassian isn't skilled is also very wrong. He can fight but he is hardly a goon. Also the idea that goons are new to the Gillis era canucks is a very strange notion. Has everyone forgotten Hordichuk? Glass? Hell, Rypien? Those last two aren't heavy weights but Rypien had one thing he was good at and it wasn't scoring... The problem is not that the canucks have changed it is that they haven't. The rest of the league have been watching tapes on how to beat the canucks for the last three years and guess what? They have figured it out! The canucks need new strategies.

On a different note I am trying to understand where this idea that Samuelsson was incredibly skilled while Booth is a turd on skates comes from. Booth has been injured not unskilled. Booth is fast with the ability to score. He would have fit in very well on the first President's trophy winning team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErxPFip05r4

Seriously the guy has a hard time getting started from being injured and he is injured a lot. But to make the claim that he isn't skilled?


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Old
03-19-2013, 03:46 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Don't really see the personnel as the main driver behind the change in style. The long pass that got us our great scoring by forcing teams on their heels simply is not viable anymore. In 09-10 and 10-11 we could break out with that long pass for most of the game, with few exceptions. Now, we're lucky if we can successfully complete it once a game and the rest of the time a standing forward is chipping it in.

We went through the 10-11 season and absolutely destroyed everyone in the league. It's foolish to think that teams wouldn't eventually catch on and they did. When you're that type of a team you have to keep pushing the envelope, rather than sit back and hope things magically click back into place.

The loose standards on what consitutes interference have also impacted the viability of our transition game. People are pining for a style of hockey that this team (or any team) simply can't employ for the foreseeable future (not that it's stopping AV from trying).
Just take one look at where that 'long pass' typically came from...Hint. It's Ehrhoff. It radically altered the dynamic of how our team could play. We could play an AV style defensive game while still having an elite transition game that teams around the league envied. And it was largely on Erhoff being able to make the 'difficult' long pass. We no longer have any defencemen who can even pretend to come close to the sort of 'first pass' Ehrhoff was able to make. Yes, he ****ed it up royally on occasion...but that's what our supposed 'elite' goaltending was for. And it worked pretty darn well.

The absence of a true PMD like Ehrhoff is a lot more likely a culprit than this crusade you're on where suddenly AV has completely changed his breakout and teams have completely figured it out and now he's the guy we need to burn at the stake.

You're completely missing the fact that Ehrhoff wasn't a typical 'AV-style' blueliner...he didn't always make the exact same breakout pass. He didn't always make the same set play on the PP. He didn't always react the same way. He had some legitimate creativity to his game...a guy who thinks the game at a much higher level than any defenceman we have currently. MUCH higher. The unpredictability and creativity of a guy like Ehrhoff made our 'attacking style' work. You really think that teams 'figuring out our coaches gameplan' strictly coincided with the loss of Ehrhoff? Ehrhoff was to the defence what the Sedins are to the forwards...a guy who was allowed to freelance because he legitimately had the skills to to so as a net positive.

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Originally Posted by Royal Canuck View Post
Just watch the first minute.

Look at the puck movement.

The smoothness, the crashing of the net, the finish.

Where is that?
It's gone. Because...Toughness has replaced it.

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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
I call BS. We should be able to at least come close to 2010 with the group we have.

Yes, we have gotten bigger, but if you look at our drafts and our acquisitions in general (including Kassian) we've clearly tried to get guys who are big AND can skate. We didn't suddenly become some lumbering team where every guy is Brian Boyle or Hal Gill.

Here's a novel concept - instead of clinging to a system that has been long figured out that also happened to complement Ehrhoff well...why not try tailoring your system to the players you DO have?

Of course, let's ignore the fact our D is virtually untouched since 2010, and they had a decent (if not totally up to potential IMO) last year without Ehrhoff.

Even if you do maintain the system, why not try Ballard in the same role as Ehrhoff as a PMD? He can rush it, and his first pass is good. Except we've never tried that, ever.

The personnel argument just holds no water for me because we have NEVER tried putting our guys in the best position to succeed.
And the 'coaching argument' just holds little water for me because we've seen AV succeed to presidents trophy levels with all kinds of different rosters.

And our defence is absolutely NOT 'virtually untouched' since 2010. It's absurd to say it is...and chemistry is such a huge part of success in the NHL.

I also take issue with this idea that Kassian is some sort of uber-skilled skating menace. I love his upside, yeah...but right now, he's a sub-par skater who very rarely demonstrates skill.

I've seen ****ing Steve Pinnizzotto make 'skilled plays' in the same capacity of Kassian. I really hope Kassian comes around and develops into the player we all hope he can become...but right now...he's a goon with inconsistent effort and give a **** levels who occasionally flashes a bit of skill that makes you double-take. The reason it makes you double-take...is because it's so rare.

there is absolutely no logical way to deny that Gillis has tried to transition this team from 'extremely skilled' to 'big'. in many cases at the expense of the former. Get back to me when Kassian is a PPG top line player.

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Old
03-19-2013, 03:49 AM
  #79
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We're like Ottawa after they lost to Anaheim.

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Old
03-19-2013, 04:15 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by me2 View Post
The panic button for this season is now. There are 8 games left until the deadline and only 12 games after. If we slump into the deadline it could all be over. I normally love Gillis waiting out other GMs but it's backfired pretty heavily this year.
I don't think he's waiting anyone out, I just think there is a lack of sellers. In the west, the last place team is only 6 points out of a playoff spot. In the east, only Florida is done for sure. Buffalo and Washington are close to throwing in the towel, but I don't think they are in the sellers camp yet.

Where does that leave MG? With a lack of sellers, the options that I see are; move a roster player (ie. A LHD for a RHD) for another roster player which is difficult with a shrinking cap, or make due with what they have and hope Kesler's eventual return gets the PP back on track.

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03-19-2013, 04:35 AM
  #81
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I would buy a DVD box set of the Canucks regular season/post-season victories in 2010/2011 and watch that from start to finish. That was "a storybook season just not the storybook ending." That Jim Hughson quote has lingered in my mind since the game 7 loss.

Ah, to be a Canucks fan

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Old
03-19-2013, 05:12 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by biturbo19 View Post
Just take one look at where that 'long pass' typically came from...Hint. It's Ehrhoff. It radically altered the dynamic of how our team could play. We could play an AV style defensive game while still having an elite transition game that teams around the league envied. And it was largely on Erhoff being able to make the 'difficult' long pass. We no longer have any defencemen who can even pretend to come close to the sort of 'first pass' Ehrhoff was able to make. Yes, he ****ed it up royally on occasion...but that's what our supposed 'elite' goaltending was for. And it worked pretty darn well.

The absence of a true PMD like Ehrhoff is a lot more likely a culprit than this crusade you're on where suddenly AV has completely changed his breakout and teams have completely figured it out and now he's the guy we need to burn at the stake.

You're completely missing the fact that Ehrhoff wasn't a typical 'AV-style' blueliner...he didn't always make the exact same breakout pass. He didn't always make the same set play on the PP. He didn't always react the same way. He had some legitimate creativity to his game...a guy who thinks the game at a much higher level than any defenceman we have currently. MUCH higher. The unpredictability and creativity of a guy like Ehrhoff made our 'attacking style' work. You really think that teams 'figuring out our coaches gameplan' strictly coincided with the loss of Ehrhoff? Ehrhoff was to the defence what the Sedins are to the forwards...a guy who was allowed to freelance because he legitimately had the skills to to so as a net positive.
I agree with what you say here in a couple of respects. Ehrhoff was, to my mind, the best exponent of the stretch pass breakout that we use(d), very much for the reasons you state. Likewise, the PP set-up that we utilised in the last two years, and still do to an extent, relied upon the creativity of Ehrhoff. His passing was quicker than any of our other d-men, he took shots more often or set up Edler more often, and he wasn't static on the point - he wandered into the slot or up to the side of the net as he saw fit.

However, while he was the best exponent of these plays, he isn't the only one. Hamhuis and Tanev both have an very good stretch pass, while Bieksa and Edler are also pretty decent at it. I think we still have the capability to execute this breakout, if it is used sparingly given that other teams now plan for it.

Nor do I see anyone making the point, as you contend, that 'av has suddenly changed his breakout'. The opposite is in fact being argued. It is that he has not adjusted it to compensate for a) the loss of a true PMD and b) the fact that teams have figured it out.

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And the 'coaching argument' just holds little water for me because we've seen AV succeed to presidents trophy levels with all kinds of different rosters.
This is where you lose me. If one is going to complain about losing personnel who made a system work, is it not the coaches job to adjust for that lack of personnel and change the system accordingly?

Moreover I would contend that we have certainly *not* seen AV succeed to president's trophy levels with 'all kinds of different rosters'. We've had two president's trophys, with teams that differed by a single top-4 d-man and a couple of bottom-6 forwards. Importantly, both of those teams played in almost exactly the same manner.

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Old
03-19-2013, 06:02 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Yossarian54 View Post
I agree with what you say here in a couple of respects. Ehrhoff was, to my mind, the best exponent of the stretch pass breakout that we use(d), very much for the reasons you state. Likewise, the PP set-up that we utilised in the last two years, and still do to an extent, relied upon the creativity of Ehrhoff. His passing was quicker than any of our other d-men, he took shots more often or set up Edler more often, and he wasn't static on the point - he wandered into the slot or up to the side of the net as he saw fit.

However, while he was the best exponent of these plays, he isn't the only one. Hamhuis and Tanev both have an very good stretch pass, while Bieksa and Edler are also pretty decent at it. I think we still have the capability to execute this breakout, if it is used sparingly given that other teams now plan for it.

Nor do I see anyone making the point, as you contend, that 'av has suddenly changed his breakout'. The opposite is in fact being argued. It is that he has not adjusted it to compensate for a) the loss of a true PMD and b) the fact that teams have figured it out.



This is where you lose me. If one is going to complain about losing personnel who made a system work, is it not the coaches job to adjust for that lack of personnel and change the system accordingly?

Moreover I would contend that we have certainly *not* seen AV succeed to president's trophy levels with 'all kinds of different rosters'. We've had two president's trophys, with teams that differed by a single top-4 d-man and a couple of bottom-6 forwards. Importantly, both of those teams played in almost exactly the same manner.

Right on. A lot of correct assertions in this post. Everything down to the system being in place and not being adjusted, rather than "suddenly" being put in place. You have the right of it.

Ironically, posters that advocate Ehrhoff being the linchpin D in the system fail to also cite that 2 PTs, not one, were won with a changing D corps. One with Ehrhoff, and one without. So how did be come so vital if that were that case?

Ehrhoff's absence is yet another red herring constructed by people to resolve what's actually going on here. It's an attempt to simplify something much more complex. There are multiple issues at play here, and missing a right side Dman like Ehrhoff is only one of them. A refusal to adjust is another. Lower sv % is yet another. And injuries again add to the pile. It's a culmination of factors, not just missing a guy like Ehrhoff.

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Old
03-19-2013, 09:12 AM
  #84
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I disagree with this thread title. We haven't changed styles at all. Rather, we've changed what kind of personnel we are bringing in while trying to play the same style. It doesn't work. You can't go big and tough and try to force those players into playing a finesse game. If you want to to big and tough then let the players mix it up and play that game. Or of you want to keep a finesse game then don't invest so heavily into going big and tough. Right now we are a team with a very confused identity.

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Old
03-19-2013, 09:26 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I disagree with this thread title. We haven't changed styles at all. Rather, we've changed what kind of personnel we are bringing in while trying to play the same style. It doesn't work. You can't go big and tough and try to force those players into playing a finesse game. If you want to to big and tough then let the players mix it up and play that game. Or of you want to keep a finesse game then don't invest so heavily into going big and tough. Right now we are a team with a very confused identity.
Then why are none of the lines capable of playing the hockey we did then even when we put together a pure-speed, skill line like Raymond - Schroeder - Hansen?

I'll say it again: that style of play is not viable anymore, it has nothing to do with personnel. Teams have adjusted to stop what was one of the most dominant teams for about two years and we haven't done anything worthwhile to answer them.

I think it's ridiculous that anyone expects us to be able to play the same long-pass game we did then. There are 29 other teams in the league, are they all coached by idiots? Somehow people defend AV because he's so brilliant but at the same time give no credit to the opposing coaches such as Babcock, Julien, Trotz, Tippett, and others that have broken down and picked apart our system, implying that those guys are incompetent at their jobs.

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03-19-2013, 09:29 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Then why are none of the lines capable of playing the hockey we did then even when we put together a pure-speed, skill line like Raymond - Schroeder - Hansen?

I'll say it again: that style of play is not viable anymore, it has nothing to do with personnel. Teams have adjusted to stop what was one of the most dominant teams for about two years and we haven't done anything worthwhile to answer them.

I think it's ridiculous that anyone expects us to be able to play the same long-pass game we did then. There are 29 other teams in the league, are they all coached by idiots?
I think the Raymond-Schroeder-Hansen line got the kind of production you'd want from a third line on a top team. Only problem is we needed them to be a good second line. These aren't top second liners.

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Old
03-19-2013, 09:39 AM
  #87
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Then why are none of the lines capable of playing the hockey we did then even when we put together a pure-speed, skill line like Raymond - Schroeder - Hansen?
Because Jannik Hansen said it 2+ years ago, he plays different when he plays with Raymond (and by different, I'm taking that to mean softer).

When is the last time we saw Jannik hammer somebody? We don't, he's a top 6 offensive forward now.


I said it last night, we're too easy to play against, even with the personnel shift to bigger players, we don't strike fear into anyone, nobody looks over their shoulder picking up pucks.

All our forwards, except maybe Weise, turn at the last second instead of finishing hits.

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Old
03-19-2013, 09:41 AM
  #88
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I think the Raymond-Schroeder-Hansen line got the kind of production you'd want from a third line on a top team. Only problem is we needed them to be a good second line. These aren't top second liners.
Saying they got 'production' doesn't mean that they were playing the same way the 10-11 team did.

The 2-man forecheck against us, the clogged neutral zone where opposition interferes with our players to the point they have to stop and wait for the breakout pass, resulting in us chipping the puck in instead of taking it in stride and beating other teams to their zone leaving them scrambling for position and coverage. The way teams have slowed down our breakout is having its effect on the rest of the game this team plays.

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All our forwards, except maybe Weise, turn at the last second instead of finishing hits.
Because they're afraid of being out of position. They play high-percentage hockey to a fault. Everything this team does is supposed to minimize a chance of turning the puck over and creating an odd-man situation against, yet as a result when players press outside of the system to try and generate offense it results in things going horribly wrong.


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Old
03-19-2013, 09:53 AM
  #89
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Gillis has probably made more bad moves than he's made good ones in recent years. Booth and Ballard are both high priced busts, Garrison looks to be the same. Don't even get me started on the 2 year 20 million dollar offer for Sundin several years back after he'd been sitting on his couch - though Sundin did help bring Kesler to the next level.

Hodgson for Kassian was a small gamble, and based on how we look this year, we could use the former - even if he's not great in his own end. Trading Grabner was stupid based on the return - though it was either him or Raymond at the time because we had no room left on the second line. As far as bang for your buck goes, Gillis hasn't done very well at all at assessing that. We're the exact opposite of a money ball team. The high priced players he's acquired are under performers and none of the lower end guys are over performers.

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03-19-2013, 09:53 AM
  #90
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We have two major changes in the roster this year from our successful ones.

President's trophy years
Hank - Kesler - Manny/Lappy (taking all the hard draws)

to
Hank - Ebbett - Lappy with the Sedins taking some very hard assignments. Leads to less offense.

President's trophy years
Hamhuis - Bieksa (two way shutdown pair)
Edler - Ehrhoff (great breakouts and superb offensively, teams couldn't collapse on the Sedins)

to
Hamhuis - Garrison (Hamhuis is now the more offensive player)
Edler - Tanev/Bieksa (not as lethal as Ehrhoff)

When injuries heal I expect this team to play very well, all Gillis needs to do is acquire a left hand 3C.
If he could deal Ballard for a right side offensive d-man like Viz (NYI) that would be ideal.

If Gillis can assemble that team it's the best of both worlds. Skill and speed from 10-11 with much more depth and toughness.

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03-19-2013, 09:54 AM
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Gillis has probably made more bad moves than he's made good ones in recent years. Booth and Ballard are both high priced busts, Garrison looks to be the same. Don't even get me started on the 2 year 20 million dollar offer for Sundin several years back after he'd been sitting on his couch.

Hodgson for Kassian was a small gamble, and based on how we look this year, we could use the former - even if he's not great in his own end. Trading Grabner was stupid based on the return - though it was either him or Raymond at the time because we had no room left on the second line. As far as bang for your buck goes, Gillis hasn't done very well at all at assessing that. We're the exact opposite of a moneyball team.
How does Garrison look to be a bust? He's shutting down other team's top lines (+7) and has 4 goals with little PP time

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03-19-2013, 10:03 AM
  #92
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How does Garrison look to be a bust? He's shutting down other team's top lines (+7) and has 4 goals with little PP time
Ya i'm mixed on Garrison.

He's actually been OKAY but he certainly isn't a PP quarterback by any stretch.

Edler is basically the only D-man the Nucks have that can do it now, and he's only okay at it.

Frustrating d-group.

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03-19-2013, 10:14 AM
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Ya i'm mixed on Garrison.

He's actually been OKAY but he certainly isn't a PP quarterback by any stretch.

Edler is basically the only D-man the Nucks have that can do it now, and he's only okay at it.

Frustrating d-group.
Which is no surprise because he wasn't brought in to be one. He's the weapon that a PP quarterback has at his disposal. No one to load the gun - no bullet to fire.

I was as critical as anyone else of Garrison's play his first 10-15 games - he wasn't excelling on the defensive side of the puck. But in the past 10 games or so he's been everything I hoped he would be at this point in his career as a Canuck. Not to mention if we were told he'd be a 13-15 goal scorer and see little to no PP time we would've been over the moon.

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03-19-2013, 10:16 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
Ya i'm mixed on Garrison.

He's actually been OKAY but he certainly isn't a PP quarterback by any stretch.

Edler is basically the only D-man the Nucks have that can do it now, and he's only okay at it.

Frustrating d-group.
Garrison was never acquired as one, that expectation was unrealistic.

PP QB is an overused term. To this day, Henrik is our PP QB, always has been. Ehrhoff was a part to a good PP, but wasn't the facilitator IMO.

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03-19-2013, 10:35 AM
  #95
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Don't really see the personnel as the main driver behind the change in style. The long pass that got us our great scoring by forcing teams on their heels simply is not viable anymore. In 09-10 and 10-11 we could break out with that long pass for most of the game, with few exceptions. Now, we're lucky if we can successfully complete it once a game and the rest of the time a standing forward is chipping it in.

We went through the 10-11 season and absolutely destroyed everyone in the league. It's foolish to think that teams wouldn't eventually catch on and they did. When you're that type of a team you have to keep pushing the envelope, rather than sit back and hope things magically click back into place.

The loose standards on what consitutes interference have also impacted the viability of our transition game. People are pining for a style of hockey that this team (or any team) simply can't employ for the foreseeable future (not that it's stopping AV from trying).
This.
The return of clutch and grab 2.0.

Our offense is okay 5 on 5.
We rely too much on our PP, goaltender bailouts ,
and offense from the back end.
Nice to have, but when building your team on this ...

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03-19-2013, 10:38 AM
  #96
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core of the team is very similar to the one that dominated the league two years ago and hasn't really aged, meaning this team with a healthy kesler has the personnel to get back to that level

i think it was mentioned in a previous post but hamhuis/bieksa as well as goaltending are playing nowhere near their potential right now and that is killing us in giving up at least 1-2 soft goals per game

but yeah, to beat a dead horse the main culprit when you have similar personnel but diminished results is coaching, especially when special teams are brutal and you have a speed-first team with good d-men playing dump and chase all game long

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03-19-2013, 10:53 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
Ya i'm mixed on Garrison.

He's actually been OKAY but he certainly isn't a PP quarterback by any stretch.

Edler is basically the only D-man the Nucks have that can do it now, and he's only okay at it.

Frustrating d-group.
IIRC, last night was his first real opportunity with the first unit. Pretty positive, IMO - yes, he missed a ton of shots, but is that any worse than the constant pass-pass-pass-around the perimiter that we were accustomed to over that stretch of futility?

Give Garrison a few games to settle in on the PP and I think he'll be productive there. It created one goal, and it kept the other team's defenders a bit more honest.

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Old
03-19-2013, 10:54 AM
  #98
moog35
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The old style of play was good while it lasted but teams had figured us out after the Boston series. We were exposed. Teams figured out that if they pushed us around we were just going to take it and beat them on the powerplay which only works if your powerplay doesn't suck like it did in the Boston series. The Bruins werent afraid to take penalties on us and therefor we able to take liberties on our top players.

Nothing wrong with changing the style of play to a grittier style for playoff success but your best players have to adapt and the top 6 hasn't. You still have the Sedins getting pushed around with no push back and no penalties being called, and you still have Kesler and Burrows starting stuff after the whistles and drawing their line mates into scrums only to have them get pushed around.

The old style of play of beating teams on the power play can only work for so long when you develop a reputation for whining and diving. Eventually the referees stop giving you the calls and unfortunately thats what happened to this team, we shot ourselves in the foot. Detroit's top players don't have the same reputation for diving like Kesler, Burrows and the Sedins (to an extent) have and they haven't had anyone on their team publicly call out an official which led to his dismissal.

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Old
03-19-2013, 11:12 AM
  #99
Viktri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
They haven't, which is why they're having trouble in the first place. Due to how other teams play us, it morphed into a dump-and-chase system. But in reality, AV is still working with all the same basics he did in that season.
I watched the video and it looked pretty similar to the system we have now, only that our system is constantly interrupted or pressured because they're not fast enough or not reading the play well enough.

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Old
03-19-2013, 11:37 AM
  #100
Karl Hungus
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The biggest loss was Ehrhoff. His arrival coincided with the explosion of this team and we've never found another player comes close to bringing what he did from the back end. Most of the great offensive teams have a skilled D feeding their forwards the puck, getting the puck into the offensive zone, and making plays at the point. We have some nice pieces but we don't have someone that can run the offense from the back end. Edler is a nice compliment to a player like that but he's not mobile enough to be a threat consistently in the offensive zone.

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