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2013 Leafs Trades/Proposals/Signings X - Steckel traded, next on the docket...

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Old
03-19-2013, 09:51 AM
  #501
The Podium
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Originally Posted by dubplatepressure View Post
Which drives the chance of a swap of Kessel for a top-20 pick working out for us down even further....

We're better off holding onto Kessel and trying to draft a gem in the 10-20 range IMO.
Are you for or against trading Kessel? Now im confused

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03-19-2013, 09:53 AM
  #502
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No, because the same thing would happen. The line would still give up goals, but would also score less. LOL

JVR in three years, and a true #1 center with Kessel and a better defense will go a long ways in helping that. Kessel alone is NOT the reason the line gets scored on more than it scores. I just don't see it. Still a team game. Kessel needs help, there is no denying that is there? Every team needs a #1 line player that can pot 30+ goals or more.

Look at the past 20 years of Stanley Cup champions. Has a team won without a 30+ goal a year player?

Sure trade Kessel. That's fine if the return is Awesome. But if not, where are the goals the rest of this year, next year and the year after going to come from?
It would score less but would still score more goals then it let in. Understand? That's how teams win hockey games, by scoring more goals then it lets in. I'd tone down the laughter if I wasn't 100% sure of my position but I guess that's just me.

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03-19-2013, 09:54 AM
  #503
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Originally Posted by northstarnicky View Post
That is the point I think most fans are missing. At least the ones that want to trade Kessel. More goals from other players will not just magically appear. Just won't happen. I get the argument that more ice time will help, as a blind squirrel will find a nut sometimes. But overall??? Cannot replace the goals. You cant.
Goals / Game:

Since Kessels been here
2011-2012: 2.77
2010-2011: 2.60
2009-2010: 2.56

Before Kessel
2008-2009: 2.98
2007-2008: 2.78 (though we had Sundin that year)

Scoring goals is a team effort. Our two highest goals/game team stats over the past 5 years have been in the two years we didn't have Kessel.

You subtract Kessel from the 1st line and bump MacArthur or somebody else up there? They will get slightly more goals than they would on the 2nd line, and the player bumped from the 3rd line to the 2nd line would get slightly more goals than they would on the 3rd line.

I don't think our overall goal output would take much of a hit. And our goals against should also go down slightly with more responsible 1st line wingers, and then the return on Kessel wouuld have the potential to give us a legitimate core piece.

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03-19-2013, 09:57 AM
  #504
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Originally Posted by Didact View Post
every year we hear from the draft junkies on this board that it's the deepest draft in years.
To be fair, it's usually only the years where we have kept our draft pick.

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03-19-2013, 09:57 AM
  #505
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On a side note, Cody Fransen. Damn! Where did he come from. Is it possible he can be a first line D-Man. Like to see him play more physical, as he does lay the body quite well. Just wish he had a nasty streak with his size. His play for us this year is like acquiring a great player for nothing. Love to see Gardiner get called up and be even better than advertised. It just sucks that Gunner is injured. A hip injury is something you really just cannot be effective with. Killed Mogilny didn't it. Doc's have said that after surgery he will be 100%.

Phaneuf Fransen
Gunner Gardiner

Looks good enough to me. Don't need a shut down pair if you have a top 4 like that, Healthy.

I don't see the need to trade for a top 4 d-man, given what it will cost.

Don't be surprised if Finn and Reilly initially make the team next year. You heard it hear first LOL


Last edited by northstarnicky: 03-19-2013 at 10:04 AM.
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Old
03-19-2013, 09:58 AM
  #506
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Goals / Game:

Since Kessels been here
2011-2012: 2.77
2010-2011: 2.60
2009-2010: 2.56

Before Kessel
2008-2009: 2.98
2007-2008: 2.78 (though we had Sundin that year)

Scoring goals is a team effort. Our two highest goals/game team stats over the past 5 years have been in the two years we didn't have Kessel.

You subtract Kessel from the 1st line and bump MacArthur or somebody else up there? They will get slightly more goals than they would on the 2nd line, and the player bumped from the 3rd line to the 2nd line would get slightly more goals than they would on the 3rd line.

I don't think our overall goal output would take much of a hit. And our goals against should also go down slightly with more responsible 1st line wingers, and then the return on Kessel wouuld have the potential to give us a legitimate core piece.
It is not worth it, there is nothing you can get back thatll guaranteed be worth it. Some Philly fans are now regretting the Richards trade already because its starting to look like they wont get back what they gave up, however are ecstatic with the Carter trade because they took a gamble and won. Its too risky, and a team in our position without a Giroux to soften the blow there is now way we can make a gamble like that.

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03-19-2013, 09:58 AM
  #507
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Goals / Game:

Since Kessels been here
2011-2012: 2.77
2010-2011: 2.60
2009-2010: 2.56

Before Kessel
2008-2009: 2.98
2007-2008: 2.78 (though we had Sundin that year)

Scoring goals is a team effort. Our two highest goals/game team stats over the past 5 years have been in the two years we didn't have Kessel.

You subtract Kessel from the 1st line and bump MacArthur or somebody else up there? They will get slightly more goals than they would on the 2nd line, and the player bumped from the 3rd line to the 2nd line would get slightly more goals than they would on the 3rd line.

I don't think our overall goal output would take much of a hit. And our goals against should also go down slightly with more responsible 1st line wingers, and then the return on Kessel wouuld have the potential to give us a legitimate core piece.
At this point in time I'd rather get JVR/Kessel a C that helps them outscore their other deficiency's.

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03-19-2013, 10:00 AM
  #508
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
It would score less but would still score more goals then it let in. Understand? That's how teams win hockey games, by scoring more goals then it lets in. I'd tone down the laughter if I wasn't 100% sure of my position but I guess that's just me.
I don't get it. Maybe I missed something.

By trading Kessel, your first line will score less. That was my point. By putting a current Leaf in his place on that line. Still will give up more than they score. JVR and Bozak? Gonna somehow score 30 goals each? Without Kessel?

Get a true #1 Center or a Brown type player on LW, and the line will be awesome. The line would then score way more than it gives up. You don't see that????

You want to trade the ONLY goal scorer we have? He is a piece that we cannot easily replace. He needs help, not moved.

If we add a Brown type or Clarkson type, and trade Kessel, our PP will suffer and we will lose a hell of a lot of goals is all I am saying. He cannot be easily replaced. And if you do trade all those points, you better be damn sure they can be replaced by someone we have in our system cause you sure are NOT gonna get that scoring from a UFA sir.


Last edited by northstarnicky: 03-19-2013 at 10:11 AM.
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Old
03-19-2013, 10:02 AM
  #509
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Originally Posted by northstarnicky View Post
I don't get it. Maybe I missed something.

By trading Kessel, your first line will score less. That was my point. Put a current Leaf in his place on that line. Still will give up more than they score. JVR and Bozak? Gonna somehow score 30 goals each?
Im with you on this, we can be 100% sure of our position together

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03-19-2013, 10:05 AM
  #510
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Meh, it shouldn't come as a surprise anymore that the best pending UFAs decide to re-up with their existing clubs. Other than Richards, Parise, and Suter, I can't recall any other examples of prime time players actually hitting the UFA market in recent years.

That being said, Kessel is not worth even close to what Anaheim antied up to keep Getzlaf and Perry.

In my opinion, if Kessel and Phaneuf have unreasonable contract demands, Nonis should deal them both for assets this off season or prior to next year's trade deadline.

The most I would offer on maximum term contracts for them is 6 million for Kessel, and 5 million for Phaneuf. Otherwise, GTFO.

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03-19-2013, 10:05 AM
  #511
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Originally Posted by northstarnicky View Post
I don't get it. Maybe I missed something.

By trading Kessel, your first line will score less. That was my point. Put a current Leaf in his place on that line. Still will give up more than they score. JVR and Bozak? Gonna somehow score 30 goals each?
I get your point, do you get mine? I don't care if a player scores 200 goals a year if his line is letting in 250. Replace that 200 goal player with a 20 goal scorer whose line only lets in 15 and we will still win more games than we lose. Understand?

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Old
03-19-2013, 10:08 AM
  #512
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
I get your point, do you get mine? I don't care if a player scores 200 goals a year if his line is letting in 250. Replace that 200 goal player with a 20 goal scorer whose line only lets in 15 and we will still win more games than we lose. Understand?
But thats not Kessels job.... As an offensively gifted player he should be placed with a defensively responsible C. Not to mention wingers usually dont carry the defensive load, i dont see why it has to be different for Kessel.

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03-19-2013, 10:14 AM
  #513
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Originally Posted by Clark4Ever View Post
Meh, it shouldn't come as a surprise anymore that the best pending UFAs decide to re-up with their existing clubs. Other than Richards, Parise, and Suter, I can't recall any other examples of prime time players actually hitting the UFA market in recent years.

That being said, Kessel is not worth even close to what Anaheim antied up to keep Getzlaf and Perry.

In my opinion, if Kessel and Phaneuf have unreasonable contract demands, Nonis should deal them both for assets this off season or prior to next year's trade deadline.

The most I would offer on maximum term contracts for them is 6 million for Kessel, and 5 million for Phaneuf. Otherwise, GTFO.
I agree. If the demands are such, gotta move them somehow. While I believe we need Kessel's goals and offense, 6 mil is reasonable for what he brings. If he was more of a leader and physical and great in his own end, he would be Corry Perry and deserve his $$$.


Last edited by northstarnicky: 03-19-2013 at 10:26 AM.
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03-19-2013, 10:14 AM
  #514
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Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
But thats not Kessels job.... As an offensively gifted player he should be placed with a defensively responsible C. Not to mention wingers usually dont carry the defensive load, i dont see why it has to be different for Kessel.
On a good team, defense is everyone's job. Nashville has won a lot more games than we have over past few years, who was their top scorer year to year? I'd rather the Leafs won more games then have a goal scorer in the top 10 in the league. Yes, with a player like Crosby you can have both but Kessel is not that type of player. That's why some people call him a complimentary piece rather than a guy you build around.

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03-19-2013, 10:16 AM
  #515
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But thats not Kessels job.... As an offensively gifted player he should be placed with a defensively responsible C. Not to mention wingers usually dont carry the defensive load, i dont see why it has to be different for Kessel.
Datsyuks an offensively gifted player. He plays absolutely great defensively. There are countless examples.

You want some examples of some elite wingers specifically that are good defensively? Hossa, Zetterberg, Parise, St. Louis, Iginla, etc.

The above are examples of elite two-way PPG wingers. But ignoring those names, I would even prefer to have wingers that put up ~55-60 points, who are solid defensively, and can play a physical game, then to have a ~75-80 point winger who is bad defensively and potentially the softest "star" player in the entire league.

So just saying Kessel is a winger, so he doesn't need to be good defensively, is a little silly. Plenty of good offensive wingers are also good defensively.

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03-19-2013, 10:16 AM
  #516
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Meh, it shouldn't come as a surprise anymore that the best pending UFAs decide to re-up with their existing clubs. Other than Richards, Parise, and Suter, I can't recall any other examples of prime time players actually hitting the UFA market in recent years.

That being said, Kessel is not worth even close to what Anaheim antied up to keep Getzlaf and Perry.

In my opinion, if Kessel and Phaneuf have unreasonable contract demands, Nonis should deal them both for assets this off season or prior to next year's trade deadline.

The most I would offer on maximum term contracts for them is 6 million for Kessel, and 5 million for Phaneuf. Otherwise, GTFO.
Hossa
Kovalchuk
Chara
Gaborik
Semin

Kessel will shoot for 7.5m per minimum

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03-19-2013, 10:19 AM
  #517
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
I get your point, do you get mine? I don't care if a player scores 200 goals a year if his line is letting in 250. Replace that 200 goal player with a 20 goal scorer whose line only lets in 15 and we will still win more games than we lose. Understand?
Yes I do get your point. I just think that Kessel is not THE ONLY reason the line is getting scored on. You don't see my point, if we had a top pairing D for example, plus Dustin Brown instead of JVR on his LW would help?

I just believe it is easier to get a Brown, Clarkson type of player than it is to get a player with the natural scoring ability that Kessel brings. As I said, the UFA pool will not help as those types of point a game players will already be signed and thus NOT available. And I can promise you this with all certainty..... To get the scoring Kessel gives us, WILL cost us roughly what we paid for him already. Trading for a Brown/Clarkson type, would cost half of that.

Teams just don't trade 30+ goal scorers who happen to be 25 or so years old. Kessel will have 200 goals at some point just after his 26th birthday. Let's trade the bum!


Last edited by northstarnicky: 03-19-2013 at 10:24 AM.
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03-19-2013, 10:19 AM
  #518
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Are you for or against trading Kessel? Now im confused

It's risky, and admittedly I'm on the fence. Killing time at work, I'll take a look at it.

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03-19-2013, 10:19 AM
  #519
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We aren't trading Kessel... not sure why people are talking about it.

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03-19-2013, 10:21 AM
  #520
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Datsyuks an offensively gifted player. He plays absolutely great defensively. There are countless examples.

You want some examples of some elite wingers specifically that are good defensively? Hossa, Zetterberg, Parise, St. Louis, Iginla, etc.

The above are examples of elite two-way PPG wingers. But ignoring those names, I would even prefer to have wingers that put up ~55-60 points, who are solid defensively, and can play a physical game, then to have a ~75-80 point winger who is bad defensively and potentially the softest "star" player in the entire league.
Iginla and MSL are not good defensively. Not even close.

Come on...sometimes I think these boards purposely hate on Americans/Russians.

I bet if Kessel was from London, Ontario instead of Minny he'd be a lot more appreciated.

Have you seen Stamkos play defense? He's a #1C and he's very lazy in his own zone, but nobody cares because he puts up points.

There are wingers that are good defensively like Hossa,Parise,Zetter etc but those are not the norm...they are the exception.

Look at Patrick Kane...he SUCKS defensively and is just as soft as Kessel but he is on a team that is very good defensively.

If he was on the Leafs, change "Kessel" to "Patrick Kane" and we're all talking about trading him.

Kessel's only flaw is that he goes invisible when he plays teams like the Bruins. He needs to be better in that department.

When Bozak/JvR aren't that good defensively, I can't expect Kessel to play at a Selke level..

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03-19-2013, 10:23 AM
  #521
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
Hossa
Kovalchuk
Chara
Gaborik
Semin

Kessel will shoot for 7.5m per minimum
Then he and his agent shouldn't let the door hit their greedy ----es on the way out of town.

I think that the two additional years that the Leafs can exclusively offer would more than compensate Kessel for what he and his agent perceive he would get on the open market.

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03-19-2013, 10:23 AM
  #522
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Yes I do get your point. I just think that Kessel is not THE ONLY reason the line is getting scored on. You don't see my point, if we had a top pairing D for example, plus Dustin Brown instead of JVR on his LW would help?

I just believe it is easier to get a Brown, Clarkson type of player than it is to get a player with the natural scoring ability that Kessel brings. As I said, the UFA pool will not help as those types of point a game players will already be signed and thus NOT available.
Well lets get real here folks, Boston would never have let Kessel be aviable if he was this well rounded player.

He is what he is, a offensive forward, one that can make good O forward even more productive.

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03-19-2013, 10:24 AM
  #523
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Boston would never have let Kessel be aviable if he was this well rounded player.


They didn't really have a choice.

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03-19-2013, 10:25 AM
  #524
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Then he and his agent shouldn't let the door hit their greedy ----es on the way out of town.

I think that the two additional years that the Leafs can exclusively offer would more than compensate Kessel for what he and his agent perceive he would get on the open market.
It's 1 extra year.

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03-19-2013, 10:26 AM
  #525
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Both Kessel and Phaneuff are in jeopardy.

We need a number one center and an upgrade at the 1D position.If either of them ask for too much we will have to trade them to make cap space.Phaneuff isnt worth 6.5 million and isnt a number one D man either.Kessel has a worth but if he asks for too much...bye bye.

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