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Alain Vigneault/coaching discussion thread - Part 4

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Old
03-19-2013, 09:24 AM
  #626
PRNuck
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Originally Posted by mrquincy27 View Post
One can hope Laviolette is fired soon
This is where I'm sitting right now too.

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03-19-2013, 09:32 AM
  #627
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you're completely discounting the talent level of the teams they play against. this league isn't static. please tell me you can see the difference in the talent level/chemistry of today's team versus the cup finalist team. you can right?
You still have to maximize the contributions you get out of your coaching, right now that's not even close to true. I don't understand how people watch how we play right now and are ok with these hail mary passes to static forwards who chip it in 9/10 times? Or the fact that AV's solution to the turnovers was to have the center come in deep which created even further gap between forwards on breakout which is now resulting in a less effective forecheck and more turnovers off of dump-ins. The lack of speed in transition is symptomatic of a coaching failure, not a personnel one.

The safe down-low cycle? Coaching. I can guarantee you that players left to their own devices would not be doing that.

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03-19-2013, 09:51 AM
  #628
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
You still have to maximize the contributions you get out of your coaching, right now that's not even close to true. I don't understand how people watch how we play right now and are ok with these hail mary passes to static forwards who chip it in 9/10 times? Or the fact that AV's solution to the turnovers was to have the center come in deep which created even further gap between forwards on breakout which is now resulting in a less effective forecheck and more turnovers off of dump-ins. The lack of speed in transition is symptomatic of a coaching failure, not a personnel one.

The safe down-low cycle? Coaching. I can guarantee you that players left to their own devices would not be doing that.
pure speculation. unless you have first-hand knowledge of the 'system' the coaches have put in place, you have no clue if the players are doing what they've been told or deviating from the game plan.

do you have first-hand knowledge?

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03-19-2013, 09:56 AM
  #629
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pure speculation. unless you have first-hand knowledge of the 'system' the coaches have put in place, you have no clue if the players are doing what they've been told or deviating from the game plan.

do you have first-hand knowledge?
Is this a serious argument? If it is, then how do teams scout other teams and why is video replay of other teams such a common coaching tool to prepare for games? You can absolutely tell what the system is from watching them and you can absolutely tell where the players deviate and where they don't.

You guys make it seem like hockey is this insanely complicated thing to watch when it truly isn't. You watch 20+ games a season and you can easily get an understanding of what system a team is playing.

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03-19-2013, 09:57 AM
  #630
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Hi there, Im very new and dont have all the faculties to navigate this huge board yet lol but seen it was an AV thread so wanted to ask. Im for,> Its time to move out AV b/c if we dont I think it will be a struggle to make the P/offs, not that it will matter much with our present roster, but, other than maybe Ruff, are there any other replacements out there? jus curious, hope im not in a wrong thread here, if so, apologies.

Thx
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03-19-2013, 09:59 AM
  #631
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Originally Posted by Janice2625 View Post
Hi there, Im very new and dont have all the faculties to navigate this huge board yet lol but seen it was an AV thread so wanted to ask. Im for,> Its time to move out AV b/c if we dont I think it will be a struggle to make the P/offs, not that it will matter much with our present roster, but, other than maybe Ruff, are there any other replacements out there? jus curious, hope im not in a wrong thread here, if so, apologies.

Thx
Janice
Jon Cooper
Dallas Eakins

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03-19-2013, 09:59 AM
  #632
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Originally Posted by stickside View Post
you're completely discounting the talent level of the teams they play against. this league isn't static. please tell me you can see the difference in the talent level/chemistry of today's team versus the cup finalist team. you can right?
Who the **** cares whether the team is "inferior" to the team that went to the Cup Finals. This team is being outworked (except last night even though they lost) for most of the game to teams that are at the very worst, equal to them on paper.

Unless you're of the opinion that teams like the Blue Jackets are above the Canucks. If you are, then I'd like to hear your reasoning for that.

Again, it's not so much the 'wins or losses', it's how they're losing. If the majority of games were like last night; I wouldn't be concerned (as you're going to sometimes lose games you should win). But if the team largely is playing uninspired/I don't give a **** attitude - you're going to lose even to the likes of lottery pick teams.

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03-19-2013, 10:04 AM
  #633
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Jon Cooper
Dallas Eakins
thank you for the names :*)

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03-19-2013, 10:09 AM
  #634
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Is this a serious argument? If it is, then how do teams scout other teams and why is video replay of other teams such a common coaching tool to prepare for games? You can absolutely tell what the system is from watching them and you can absolutely tell where the players deviate and where they don't.

You guys make it seem like hockey is this insanely complicated thing to watch when it truly isn't. You watch 20+ games a season and you can easily get an understanding of what system a team is playing.
do teams alter their system throughout the year? or do they stay static?

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03-19-2013, 10:15 AM
  #635
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do teams alter their system throughout the year? or do they stay static?
If I understand correctly, if you've won a Jack Adams, you never have to change anything ever.

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Old
03-19-2013, 10:20 AM
  #636
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do teams alter their system throughout the year? or do they stay static?
Watch the Canucks power play.

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Old
03-19-2013, 10:25 AM
  #637
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do teams alter their system throughout the year? or do they stay static?
They make adjustments. Nobody completely revamps their play during a season. AV has made adjustments this season too, just really bad ones that have made this team worse instead of better.

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Old
03-19-2013, 10:29 AM
  #638
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if this were a regular 82 game season and we were at the halfway point, i'd recommend without hesitation that gillis should do a complete staff overhaul and hire a promising ahl coach that can unlock the speed of the team and rediscover the transition game that made this team dominant two seasons ago

unfortunately we are in a lockout year and i think it's just too late to go that route...i think you just have to ride it out, hope that the players can overcome the shackles put on them, and maybe get that 1/1000 chance of a magical run...when that doesn't happen you clean house after the probable 1st round exit (assuming they actually make the playoffs)

it sucks for sure but a healthy kesler, a motivated schneider, assets from a luongo trade and most importantly a new coaching staff/system could make this a vastly improved team next october

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Old
03-19-2013, 10:33 AM
  #639
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Originally Posted by VeteranNetPresence View Post
gillis doesn't have the stones to fire AV. if he is going to get sacked than it's going to come from higher up
So true.And where is Gillis with all this,has he even said anything over the fact that this team is crap right now.Im tired of hearing him say,i believe in this team.I dont even think at this point a change in coach,es would do any good.The make up of this team is not that good.

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Old
03-19-2013, 10:36 AM
  #640
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So true.And where is Gillis with all this,has he even said anything over the fact that this team is crap right now.Im tired of hearing him say,i believe in this team.I dont even think at this point a change in coach,es would do any good.The make up of this team is not that good.
Even if I were GM, I'd say this team isn't good enough.

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Old
03-19-2013, 10:37 AM
  #641
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Even Scotty Bowman couldn't win with this group of players. This is not about Av it's all about Gillis.

Think about all the moves Gillis has made that have come back to bite this team. The Cup window is now closed and we may be in for years of watching a crappy Canucks team. It's all on Gillis.

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03-19-2013, 10:38 AM
  #642
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The other thing to keep in mind about AV: he was always a defensively-minded coach who played the percentages prior to the transformation Gillis brought about. The team is reverting back to its AV roots and does it suprise anyone that AV doesn't have a problem with that? That's HIS hockey, that's how he likes it.

Quote:
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Even Scotty Bowman couldn't win with this group of players. This is not about Av it's all about Gillis.
Convincing argument you have there. Sold.

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Old
03-19-2013, 10:40 AM
  #643
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
The other thing to keep in mind about AV: he was always a defensively-minded coach who played the percentages prior to the transformation Gillis brought about. The team is reverting back to its AV roots and does it suprise anyone that AV doesn't have a problem with that? That's HIS hockey, that's how he likes it.
Didn't something come out around the time of AV re-signing about Gillis and Vigneault disagreeing with the direction in which they wanted to take the club? I seem to recall Gillis wanting to push an uptempo style, while AV argued for a defense-first approach.

Am I making that up?

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03-19-2013, 10:42 AM
  #644
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Originally Posted by Finkle is Einhorn View Post
Didn't something come out around the time of AV re-signing about Gillis and Vigneault disagreeing with the direction in which they wanted to take the club? I seem to recall Gillis wanting to push an uptempo style, while AV argued for a defense-first approach.

Am I making that up?
I remember something like that, vaguely.

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Old
03-19-2013, 10:51 AM
  #645
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Even Scotty Bowman couldn't win with this group of players.
Against the current "powerhouses" sure. But we ain't talking about THOSE teams.

This team can't beat more the teams that - at least on paper - BELOW them right now. Sweet jebus, a third string goalie beat the Canucks (Flames game). Think about that.

You don't need a Scotty Bowman for that.

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Old
03-19-2013, 11:15 AM
  #646
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Against the current "powerhouses" sure. But we ain't talking about THOSE teams.

This team can't beat more the teams that - at least on paper - BELOW them right now. Sweet jebus, a third string goalie beat the Canucks (Flames game). Think about that.

You don't need a Scotty Bowman for that.
Danny Taylor's closer to fourth string :S

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Old
03-19-2013, 11:18 AM
  #647
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They make adjustments. Nobody completely revamps their play during a season. AV has made adjustments this season too, just really bad ones that have made this team worse instead of better.
ok good. then why is it in the teams best interests to completely show their hand before the playoffs? are the canucks going to be playing this game if they make the playoffs or are they going to adjust?

i seem to remember naslund being paired with the sedins a few years back in the playoffs. up until that point, they hadn't played together. harder to scout.

i also seem to remember claude julien slowly but surely playing tyler seguin more and more as the playoffs and especially the series versus the canucks went on. harder to scout.

is vigneault forcing the hand of gillis by telling him in not so subtle terms he needs better players? maybe so.

or is vigneault playing this system in a shortened, condensed season, where injuries are sure to happen and it's less taxing on the players? maybe so.

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03-19-2013, 11:20 AM
  #648
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or is vigneault playing this system in a shortened, condensed season, where injuries are sure to happen and it's less taxing on the players? maybe so.
Our system is one of the most taxing out there on the players. The notion that they can just switch to a different system for the playoffs is completely ridiculous.

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Old
03-19-2013, 11:22 AM
  #649
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Our system is one of the most taxing out there on the players. The notion that they can just switch to a different system for the playoffs is completely ridiculous.
oh, i'm sorry. i thought you said earlier hockey wasn't complicated.

so they're not able to adjust their system based on which teams they play? so much for pre-scouting.

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03-19-2013, 11:26 AM
  #650
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oh, i'm sorry. i thought you said earlier hockey wasn't complicated.
Recognizing a system and executing one effectively are two completely different things.

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