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Desharnais signed to a contract extension (4 years @ $3.5M/yr)

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Old
03-19-2013, 11:11 AM
  #726
Kjell Dahlin
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Eller does not have tunnel vision. DD would excel in a role similar to what St. Louis has in Tampa Bay. Eller is a natural center. He's better defensively. He's a big body down the middle. He has some of the best hands on the team and as a result, he is able to stickhandle in traffic and gain the zone. He plays the entire ice surface.

You have to look at the center position far beyond just the offensive aspect of scoring goals or setting them up. Center has the most responsibilities. DD would be better sheltered away from the defensively responsiblities of being the center and focusing more on getting open and letting his vision shine through when he gets the puck. He won't be marginalized on the wing the same way Eller would be and has been.
Saint-Louis is thriving on wings because, among other things, he has insanely strong and powerful legs. Lower body strength is not one of Desharnais’ main qualities!

Because of their respective forces/weaknesses, Eller on wings and Desharnais at C would provide us with an optimal contribution.

We are currently rolling a tough minutes line (Plekanec’s) + 2 well balanced scoring lines (Desharnais’ and Eller’s) + a defensively reliable 4th line and, as a result, our Habs are currently one of the best teams in the league. Moving Eller on Plekanec’s LW, once Galchneyuk is ready to assume C duties, would only reinforce our tough minutes line.

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03-19-2013, 11:14 AM
  #727
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Saint-Louis is thriving on wings because, among other things, he has insanely strong and powerful legs. Lower body strength is not one of Desharnais’ main qualities!

Because of their respective forces/weaknesses, Eller on wings and Desharnais at C would provide us with an optimal contribution.

We are currently rolling a tough minutes line (Plekanec’s) + 2 well balanced scoring lines (Desharnais’ and Eller’s) + a defensively reliable 4th line and, as a result, our Habs are currently one of the best teams in the league. Moving Eller on Plekanec’s LW, once Galchneyuk is ready to assume C duties, would only reinforce our tough minutes line.
We haven't tried DD on the wing to know. It's my feeling that Eller at center and DD on the wing is a better use of their talents.

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03-19-2013, 11:17 AM
  #728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Saint-Louis is thriving on wings because, among other things, he has insanely strong and powerful legs. Lower body strength is not one of Desharnais’ main qualities!

Because of their respective forces/weaknesses, Eller on wings and Desharnais at C would provide us with an optimal contribution.

We are currently rolling a tough minutes line (Plekanec’s) + 2 well balanced scoring lines (Desharnais’ and Eller’s) + a defensively reliable 4th line and, as a result, our Habs are currently one of the best teams in the league. Moving Eller on Plekanec’s LW, once Galchneyuk is ready to assume C duties, would only reinforce our tough minutes line.
So we're going to put the weakest center (physically and defensively) at center and move our strongest center (physically) to the wing? You do know what the center's responsibilities are in the defensive zone right?

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03-19-2013, 11:18 AM
  #729
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
We haven't tried DD on the wing to know. It's my feeling that Eller at center and DD on the wing is a better use of their talents.
DD did not look bad on Gomez' wing but playing him on wings would not be an optimal utilisation of his main quality: his borderline elite vision. Plus I doubt he is physically strong enough to thrive, long terms, as a NHL winger.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
So we're going to put the weakest center (physically and defensively) at center and move our strongest center (physically) to the wing? You do know what the center's responsibilities are in the defensive zone right?
To make room, in 1-2 year(s), for Galchenyuk at C... yes. Plus it would give Plekanec 2 strong, big wingers.

Regarding "... You do know what the center's responsibilities are in the defensive zone right?"; you do know that an alert coach like Therrien, can use the Pacioretty/Desharnais entity as a surgical and deadly weapon right? Right now he is giving them more offensive zone starts and, based on their “scoring chance for: scoring chances against” ratio, it is working very well.


Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 03-19-2013 at 11:28 AM.
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03-19-2013, 11:20 AM
  #730
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
DD did not look bad on Gomez' wing but playing him on wings would not be an optimal utilisation of his main quality: his borderline elite vision. Plus I doubt he is physically strong enough to thrive, long terms, as a NHL winger.
Center is more physically demanding. DD can still use his vision from the wing. In fact, he'd be higher on break-outs.. less physically tired from being engaged in long board battles (since he's not strong enough to win them as cleanly as Eller does) and actually be able to use his vision to catch the trailers on the rush.

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03-19-2013, 11:34 AM
  #731
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Not sure I get your analogy.

Did he suggest playing Price on the wing or something?
I guess he has no confidence in Desharnais' abilities to succeed on wing and be versatile.

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03-19-2013, 11:38 AM
  #732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Saint-Louis is thriving on wings because, among other things, he has insanely strong and powerful legs. Lower body strength is not one of Desharnais’ main qualities!

Because of their respective forces/weaknesses, Eller on wings and Desharnais at C would provide us with an optimal contribution.

We are currently rolling a tough minutes line (Plekanec’s) + 2 well balanced scoring lines (Desharnais’ and Eller’s) + a defensively reliable 4th line and, as a result, our Habs are currently one of the best teams in the league. Moving Eller on Plekanec’s LW, once Galchneyuk is ready to assume C duties, would only reinforce our tough minutes line.
How does insanely strong legs benefit a winger more than a center?

There are plenty of wingers out there who rely on their vision more than anything else. Tanguay is a perfect example.

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03-19-2013, 11:52 AM
  #733
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How does insanely strong legs benefit a winger more than a center?

There are plenty of wingers out there who rely on their vision more than anything else. Tanguay is a perfect example.
Tanguay is average size.

I was just underlining the fact that Saint-Louis is small but he has powerful legs. Hence me disagreeing with WeThreeKings when he mentioned that “... DD would excel in a role similar to what St. Louis has in Tampa Bay...”. Desharnais is small and he does not have enough lower body strength to thrive, long terms, as a winger alongside the board.

Again: based on their respective forces/weaknesses, Eller on wings and Desharnais at C would provide us with an optimal contribution.

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Old
03-19-2013, 11:57 AM
  #734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Tanguay is average size.

I was just underlining the fact that Saint-Louis is small but he has powerful legs. Hence me disagreeing with WeThreeKings when he mentioned that “... DD would excel in a role similar to what St. Louis has in Tampa Bay...”. Desharnais is small and he does not have enough lower body strength to thrive, long terms, as a winger alongside the board.

Again: based on their respective forces/weaknesses, Eller on wings and Desharnais at C would provide us with an optimal contribution.
I'm sorry. I completely disagree.

A center has to battle along the boards in the defensive zone. He acts like a third defenseman. A center has to play the entire ice surface. His job is more physically demanding than the wing. A winger has to cover points and chip the puck out.

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03-19-2013, 11:57 AM
  #735
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Tanguay is average size.

I was just underlining the fact that Saint-Louis is small but he has powerful legs. Hence me disagreeing with WeThreeKings when he mentioned that “... DD would excel in a role similar to what St. Louis has in Tampa Bay...”. Desharnais is small and he does not have enough lower body strength to thrive, long terms, as a winger alongside the board.

Again: based on their respective forces/weaknesses, Eller on wings and Desharnais at C would provide us with an optimal contribution.
Only if you completely ignore the fact that Eller's primary contribution is excellent two way play, which would be marginalized on the wing.

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03-19-2013, 12:00 PM
  #736
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Tanguay is average size.

I was just underlining the fact that Saint-Louis is small but he has powerful legs. Hence me disagreeing with WeThreeKings when he mentioned that “... DD would excel in a role similar to what St. Louis has in Tampa Bay...”. Desharnais is small and he does not have enough lower body strength to thrive, long terms, as a winger alongside the board.

Again: based on their respective forces/weaknesses, Eller on wings and Desharnais at C would provide us with an optimal contribution.
My point about Tanguay is that his best/most useful asset is his vision and he's still able to use that on the wings. So it's certainly plausible that Desharnais will also still be able to use his vision on the wings hence his strength is not diminished by playing on the wing. Granted we have to try it to see if he can actually adapt.

If we want to look at his weaknesses, I think I'd rather have a less physically strong guy on the wing. A center battles along the boards arguably just as much if not more than the winger when we consider the defensive zone battles as well. Second his puck retrieval skills can be minimized by dumping it onto the other wingers side.

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03-19-2013, 12:14 PM
  #737
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
DD did not look bad on Gomez' wing but playing him on wings would not be an optimal utilisation of his main quality: his borderline elite vision. Plus I doubt he is physically strong enough to thrive, long terms, as a NHL winger.

EDIT:



To make room, in 1-2 year(s), for Galchenyuk at C... yes. Plus it would give Plekanec 2 strong, big wingers.

Regarding "... You do know what the center's responsibilities are in the defensive zone right?"; you do know that an alert coach like Therrien, can use the Pacioretty/Desharnais entity as a surgical and deadly weapon right? Right now he is giving them more offensive zone starts and, based on their “scoring chance for: scoring chances against” ratio, it is working very well.
You just admitted that DD and Pacs have to be sheltered. Why do that if you don't have to?

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03-19-2013, 12:16 PM
  #738
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Only if you completely ignore the fact that Eller's primary contribution is excellent two way play, which would be marginalized on the wing.
I am not ignoring it: optimisation does imply some sacrifices. Plus, as Plekanec’s LW, Eller would be receiving more TOI. The question is what would be the optimal scenario, from a team perspective, in terms of net contribution.

You underlined that his two ways play would be marginalised on wing but his weaknesses (pug hog, minor case of tunnel vision...) would also be attenuated. Plus, as I mentioned, his TOI would increase as Plekanec’s LW.

Anyhow, Galchnyuk is not ready yet to assume C duties so the status quo is great.

In 1-2 year(s), I can see:

Eller – Plekanec - Bourque
Pacioretty – Desharnais - Gallagher
Prust - Galchenyuk - Gionta

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03-19-2013, 12:17 PM
  #739
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There's a reason why teams covet size down the middle.
Why it is cited as a reason for success during the play-offs.

Removing size down the middle for something trivial is a really silly move. DD will be perfectly fine on the wing. Might even excel there where it removes more of his duties and allow him to concentrate more on pushing the offense.

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03-19-2013, 12:21 PM
  #740
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
I am not ignoring it: optimisation does imply some sacrifices. Plus, as Plekanec’s LW, Eller would be receiving more TOI. The question is what would be the optimal scenario, from a team perspective, in terms of net contribution.

You underlined that his two ways play would be marginalised on wing but his weaknesses (pug hog, minor case of tunnel vision...) would also be attenuated. Plus, as I mentioned, his TOI would increase as Plekanec’s LW.

Anyhow, Galchnyuk is not ready yet to assume C duties so the status quo is great.

In 1-2 year(s), I can see:

Eller – Plekanec - Bourque
Pacioretty – Desharnais - Gallagher
Prust - Galchenyuk - Gionta
Why do you insist on having Desharnais play center? You've admitted that Eller is the better two-way player and that DD and Pacs have to play sheltered minutes. It's obvious that Eller on the wing doesn't use his two-way ability. Why not:

x – Plekanec - x
Pacioretty – Galchenyuk - Desharnais
x - Eller - x

That uses everybody to their optimal abilities and provides a lot of depth. Can you comment on that please?

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03-19-2013, 12:24 PM
  #741
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
There's a reason why teams covet size down the middle.
Why it is cited as a reason for success during the play-offs.

Removing size down the middle for something trivial is a really silly move. DD will be perfectly fine on the wing. Might even excel there where it removes more of his duties and allow him to concentrate more on pushing the offense.
We are currently one of the best teams in the league; size upfront is not a problem.

In 1-2 year(s), 19 years old Galchenyuk will be what 6'2" and 210 pounds? A Eller/Galchenyuk swap at C would not be "removing size down the middle”. In fact, it would only add size on Plekanec’s wing!

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03-19-2013, 12:25 PM
  #742
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
We are currently one of the best teams in the league; size upfront is not a problem.

In 1-2 year(s), 19 years old Galchenyuk will be what 6'2" and 210 pounds? A Eller/Galchenyuk swap at C would not be "removing size down the middle”. In fact, it would only add size on Plekanec’s wing!
Size is a problem. We have Gallagher, Gionta and Desharnais in our top 6 That's not a recipe for playoff success

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03-19-2013, 12:27 PM
  #743
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
Size is a problem. We have Gallagher, Gionta and Desharnais in our top 6 That's not a recipe for playoff success
"Top 9" not "top 6" and the last time I checked we were one of the best teams in the league.

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03-19-2013, 12:29 PM
  #744
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
"Top 9" not "top 6" and the last time I checked we were one of the best teams in the league.
Cups aren't given out in the regular season old chap.

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03-19-2013, 12:29 PM
  #745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
We are currently one of the best teams in the league; size upfront is not a problem.

In 1-2 year(s), 19 years old Galchenyuk will be what 6'2" and 210 pounds? A Eller/Galchenyuk swap at C would not be "removing size down the middle”. In fact, it would only add size on Plekanec’s wing!
Another problem being that Galchenyuk will have to start out with soft minutes at C to develop into the player we need him to be. Desharnais also needs that soft opposition. You do not give yourself 2 soft opposition centers inside your top 9 unless you're forced to, which we aren't.

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03-19-2013, 12:29 PM
  #746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
We are currently one of the best teams in the league; size upfront is not a problem.

In 1-2 year(s), 19 years old Galchenyuk will be what 6'2" and 210 pounds? A Eller/Galchenyuk swap at C would not be "removing size down the middle”. In fact, it would only add size on Plekanec’s wing!
There's other ways to add size to Plekanec's wing rather than removing the better two-way center from his natural position that he excels at.

Eller has the better face-off percentage.
Eller has the better plus/minus.
Eller has more hits.
And somehow despite Eller's "tunnel vision" he has more assists than Desharnais despite playing less, playing the PP less and not having the quality line-mates that DD has had.

Eller is on his way to being a considerably better center than DD. This doesn't mean we should remove DD from the team. He has good chemistry with Patches. He should be moved to the wing and all is well.

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03-19-2013, 12:38 PM
  #747
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Another problem being that Galchenyuk will have to start out with soft minutes at C to develop into the player we need him to be. Desharnais also needs that soft opposition. You do not give yourself 2 soft opposition centers inside your top 9 unless you're forced to, which we aren't.
It was working earlier this season when Prust - Galchenyuk - Gallagher was our "3rd" line. Plekanec will always be the one facing our opponents' top line... we might as well give him a sound and big two ways player like Eller on his wing.

Also (1) more often than not, Desharnais and Pacioretty are playing against our opponents' top ES D pairing while Plekanec goes against our opponents' top line and (2) you should not underestimate the importance of our 4th line: this line is, big thanks to Moen, defensively reliable.

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03-19-2013, 01:26 PM
  #748
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
Why do you insist on having Desharnais play center? You've admitted that Eller is the better two-way player and that DD and Pacs have to play sheltered minutes. It's obvious that Eller on the wing doesn't use his two-way ability. Why not:

x – Plekanec - x
Pacioretty – Galchenyuk - Desharnais
x - Eller - x

That uses everybody to their optimal abilities and provides a lot of depth. Can you comment on that please?
I would swap Desharnais and Pacioretty. A passer benefits little from being on his off wing, whereas a shooter does.

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03-19-2013, 01:40 PM
  #749
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
I am not ignoring it: optimisation does imply some sacrifices. Plus, as Plekanec’s LW, Eller would be receiving more TOI. The question is what would be the optimal scenario, from a team perspective, in terms of net contribution.
There's such a thing as over-optimization. If you focus on making something extremely optimal for one scenario, ie offensive output, then usually it will perform badly at another scenario. Since hockey is such a fluid game where you transition between offence & defence having a less optimal offence but more robust team will produce better results.

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03-19-2013, 06:43 PM
  #750
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Size is a problem. We have Gallagher, Gionta and Desharnais in our top 6 That's not a recipe for playoff success
We went to conference finals with Cammalleri (5'9''), Gionta (5'5''), Plekanec (5'11'') and Gomez (5'11'') as our 4 more productive forwards.

It turned out to be a pretty good playoff team. A short player that is ultra productive in the playoffs (such as Gionta) is far more valuable than a tall dude who mails it. I expect Gallagher to be a playoff warrior and I think Desharnais is going to do well.

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