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Which player had the best skillset in their prime?

View Poll Results: Player with the best skillset
Mario Lemieux 46 34.59%
Wayne Gretzky 50 37.59%
Sergei Fedorov 17 12.78%
Peter Forsberg 1 0.75%
Eric Lindros 5 3.76%
Pavel Bure 5 3.76%
Sidney Crosby 1 0.75%
Alexei Kovalev 2 1.50%
Jaromir Jagr 5 3.76%
Alex Ovechkin 1 0.75%
Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-18-2013, 09:16 PM
  #76
Killion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Here's a good comparison, prime v. prime,
that might snap some sense into you:

Skating: Coffey
overall shooting ability: Bourque
hockey sense: Coffey
passing: Coffey
playmaking: Coffey
puck control: Coffey
defense/checking: Bourque

Who's better? Who has the better skill set?
As a more Defensive Defenceman, Bourque.
As an Offensive Defenceman, Paul Coffey...

you see eva unit zero, I can have my cake & eat it too.

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03-18-2013, 09:17 PM
  #77
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Skating ability is at least as much a skill as "hockey IQ". For that example, I give you Zdeno Chara. He entered the league with the New York Islanders, and was a poor skater. Big, strong, knew what was happening on the ice but couldn't skate to save his life and was basically a pylon. A joke. Later in his career, he worked on improving his skating. This was around the same time he was traded to Ottawa. Suddenly Chara the pylon became Chara the first-pairing defenseman, riding shotgun for Norris contender Wade Redden. Then Redden signed with the NYR, and Chara was #1.



That's not the only thing being considered with regards to shot, though. Fedorov and Kovalev both had 100mph slappers with quick releases.



The thread is still about who has the best skillset, not who put up the best stats.

Here's a good comparison, prime v. prime, that might snap some sense into you:
Skating: Coffey
overall shooting ability: Bourque
hockey sense: Coffey
passing: Coffey
playmaking: Coffey
puck control: Coffey
defense/checking: Bourque

Who's better? Who has the better skill set?
How can anyone feel Coffey had better hockey sense than Bourque?

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03-18-2013, 09:20 PM
  #78
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by frontsfan2005 View Post
Are you saying Alexei Kovalev had a better skill set than Wayne Gretzky?
If I wanted to say that, I would have said that.

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03-18-2013, 09:23 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Here's how I would compare Kovalev to each of Gretzky, Lemieux, and Fedorov (the only three legit choices on this list IMHO, as explained above).

Kovalev vs. Gretzky
Skating: Kovalev
overall shooting ability: Kovalev
hockey sense: Gretzky
passing: Gretzky
playmaking: Gretzky
puck control: Kovalev
defense/checking: Kovalev

Kovalev vs. Lemieux
Skating: Kovalev
overall shooting ability: Lemieux
hockey sense: Lemieux
passing: Lemieux
playmaking: Lemieux
puck control: Lemieux
defense/checking: Kovalev

Kovalev vs. Fedorov
Skating: Fedorov
overall shooting ability: Fedorov
hockey sense: Fedorov
passing: Fedorov
playmaking: Fedorov
puck control: Kovalev
defense/checking: Fedorov

As you can see, the "Kovalev over Gretzky" argument is the most legitimate. And the reason for that is because Gretzky, as we all know, was a much more cerebral player. Lemieux and Fedorov, in addition to having better hockey minds, were simply more talented than Kovalev physically. With Gretzky, he doesn't have the strength or speed Lemieux, Kovalev, or Fedorov have.



How about a prime Steve Yzerman? Faster skater. Better and more versatile goal scorer. Double-shifted in a checking role pre-Fedorov (He received Selke votes in his 155 point year) and was used to shut down Gretzky in the 1987 conference finals. Not sure why Yzerman, Beliveau, Trottier, Howe were not included.
Wasn't a choice.

If we can pick anyone, period, then Bobby Orr should be the runaway winner.

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03-18-2013, 09:24 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Skating: Coffey
overall shooting ability: Bourque
hockey sense: Coffey
passing: Coffey
playmaking: Coffey
puck control: Coffey
defense/checking: Bourque
Skating: Coffey
overall shooting ability: Bourque
hockey sense: Bourque
passing: Coffey
playmaking: Bourque
puck control: Bourque
defense/checking: Bourque

Much better.
Bourque was the king of puck control. He was east-west, give and go and ate up incredible minutes with the puck on his stick. His rushing of the puck was controlled, as were his pinches.
Coffey was north-south, he just went. His rushing was more of the take the puck as deep as he could, as fast as he could. His pinching was often and could be considered reckless.

Either way, as for the poll I had to go with Lemieux by a hair over Gretzky due to his edge physically.

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Old
03-18-2013, 09:27 PM
  #81
Fred Taylor
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I would have to go with Mario Lemieux.

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Old
03-18-2013, 09:29 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
Gretzky - agreed

Lemieux - agreed

Fedorov - while everything you say is technically true, he's also one of the worst forwards on the list. He never won a scoring title, only came close once (and that was to Gretzky playing like his 15 or 16th year of professional hockey or something silly), and was never even the clear choice for best player on his own team. Yes he was good in the playoffs, but so were Gretzky and Lemieux.

Fedorov's playoffs get him treated like he was Patrick Roy winning Con Smythes hand over fist or something. He was a really good playoff performer on the best team in hockey. You could try to say the same about Gretzky, except he has the Smythes to go with it, numerous playoff records, and took a sub par team to the finals once while scoring more assists than anyone else on his team had points.

Fedorov also had a habit of coasting through the regular season. He's more overrated than Forsberg lately.
Spot on regarding Federov. It's a testament to his talent he could accomplish so much without ever really going into top gear. When he did so in the playoffs he was obviously one of the best in the world, but it's a shame ge didn't treat the regular season the same.

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Old
03-18-2013, 09:45 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
hockey sense: Bourque
Second only to Gretzky since they came into the league, in my opinion.

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Old
03-18-2013, 09:52 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Well, no. Wayne Gretzky may be the Best Ever to you and the majority, but to a lot of people, Orr, Gordie Howe, Lemieux, Lidstrom even, whomever is the Best Ever. If we throw out the numbers, like just forget about them and consider the players being discussed from a purely artistic perspective, as in how they played, skated, all of the nuances of their game, style, then it becomes interpretive, subjective, a matter of individual taste & preference, appreciation. Some like abstract paintings, others prefer realism. Some might like Howe over Gretzky because he was a far more proto-typical player, a beyond power power forward. Its whatever turns their cranks...
I think I touched on that when I named Howe and Orr in my list of five that did everything well (and we can probably add early Mikita, when he was more violent) - rather than just doing the offensive skills at a significantly higher level.

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03-18-2013, 10:03 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
...and we can probably add early Mikita, when he was more violent.
Ya, thats a great pick right there. Very smart, skilled hockey player. Pretty much spit battery acid at people, cooling his jets significantly upon realizing he wasnt helping his teams efforts sitting in the Penalty Box. Some classic clashes with Ted Lindsay amongst others early in his career.

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Old
03-18-2013, 10:08 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I think I touched on that when I named Howe and Orr in my list of five that did everything well (and we can probably add early Mikita, when he was more violent) - rather than just doing the offensive skills at a significantly higher level.
It's not "early Mikita" it's "angry Mikita".

Don't make Stan angry. You wouldn't like him when he's angry...

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Old
03-18-2013, 10:25 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
It's not "early Mikita" it's "angry Mikita". Don't make Stan angry. You wouldn't like him when he's angry...
Usually when I weilded a hockey stick, it meant somebody was gonna get hurt.
Stan Mikita

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Old
03-18-2013, 11:41 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Maybe the late hour here and my current understanding of the english language right now is not so good, but Bobby Orr says Hi!

Edit: Yeah, i guess longshot means tight. Forget the above. I can add though that Gretzkys brain did him great, more than his physical skills which i guess this poll is about. Would be interesting to hear about Orr's brain though on some occasion.



It is not correct 83-84 was a lower scoring year than 88-89. Reverse it.
I stand corrected, but it is almost identical. Here is a list of the NHL's goals per game average, season by season:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...ad.php?t=97918

GPG average in 83-84: 7.88
GPG average in 88-89: 7.48

Therefore, my point still stands. If Lemieux was a better goal scorer, than how come he couldn't score more goals than Gretzky in a year that is almost identical in GPG? Gretzky actually missed 2 more games in 83-84 than Lemieux missed in 88-89 as well, yet Gretzky still scored 2 more goals than him despite this. Given the tiny differnece in GPG average between these two seasons, I really don't buy that Mario was a better goal scorer in their primes....especially if you consider all the goal scoring records Gretzky has. Moreover, Gretzky was able to score eleven straight 100 assist seasons while at the same time being the fastest to every goal scoring milestone. Lemieux only reached 100 assists once. Imagine if Wayne had not focussed so much on getting those 100 assist seasons? How much better of a goal scorer would he have been?? Hmmm......interesting stuff.

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Old
03-18-2013, 11:57 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
I stand corrected, but it is almost identical. Here is a list of the NHL's goals per game average, season by season:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...ad.php?t=97918

GPG average in 83-84: 7.88
GPG average in 88-89: 7.48

Therefore, my point still stands. If Lemieux was a better goal scorer, than how come he couldn't score more goals than Gretzky in a year that is almost identical in GPG? Gretzky actually missed 2 more games in 83-84 than Lemieux missed in 88-89 as well, yet Gretzky still scored 2 more goals than him despite this. Given the tiny differnece in GPG average between these two seasons, I really don't buy that Mario was a better goal scorer in their primes....especially if you consider all the goal scoring records Gretzky has. Moreover, Gretzky was able to score eleven straight 100 assist seasons while at the same time being the fastest to every goal scoring milestone. Lemieux only reached 100 assists once. Imagine if Wayne had not focussed so much on getting those 100 assist seasons? How much better of a goal scorer would he have been?? Hmmm......interesting stuff.
I mean that Lemieux adapted better when the league changed. That's all and is becouse he could score from everywhere.

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03-19-2013, 12:14 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
I mean that Lemieux adapted better when the league changed. That's all and is becouse he could score from everywhere.
That and he wasn't past-it like Gretz was? THAT wouldn't have anything to do with Gretz not "adapting" would it? Naw, couldn't be.....

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03-19-2013, 01:45 AM
  #91
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Gretzky, Mario 2nd. But Gretzky was too good.

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Old
03-19-2013, 01:52 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I can't believe you wrote that. What does SKILLSET have in common with ACHIEVEMENTS?



Again, this is not about who was the better player, but who was more talented. Fedorov and Lemieux were faster, stronger, and had better shot than Gretzky. Obviously, Gretz made up for all of those with his godlike vision and hockey sense, but as far as those skills listed, he can't hold a candle to either of them. Again: Gretzky was the best hockey player ever by a long shot, but as far as pure skill goes, 66 and 91 were better.
I am not sure about that. I think of this question as a overall ranking.

Fedorov has the best average, meaning that he can compete on a high level on basically every skill. But he falls so much behind on the few skills that Gretzky has that i would not put him ahead of Gretzky.

If Gretzky has hockey IQ points of 100/100 then Fedorov gets 75/100

If Gretzky has vision points 100/100 Fedorov gets 70/100

etc.

I just don't see Fedorov making up the gap in his other skills. He definitely closes the gap and this is basically the only time he can be argued to the same level as Lemieux/Gretzky, but i would not put him ahead of either.

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03-19-2013, 02:06 AM
  #93
Killion
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Originally Posted by DLR1970 View Post
Gretzky, Mario 2nd. But Gretzky was too good.
Ya, I agree. Mario was an incredible player, Gretzky however Supernatural in his prime, a skill set so far off the radar that it was Spooky.... oh, and Welcome to hf btw. Hope you enjoy.

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Old
03-19-2013, 08:02 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
How can anyone feel Coffey had better hockey sense than Bourque?
I was kind of either way on that; Coffey had better judgement of what was going on when his team had the puck, Bourque was the opposite. I gave it to Coffey but really could have gone either way; probably should have been a draw. More like "offensive sense" and "defensive sense" needed to be split up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I am not sure about that. I think of this question as a overall ranking.

Fedorov has the best average, meaning that he can compete on a high level on basically every skill. But he falls so much behind on the few skills that Gretzky has that i would not put him ahead of Gretzky.

If Gretzky has hockey IQ points of 100/100 then Fedorov gets 75/100

If Gretzky has vision points 100/100 Fedorov gets 70/100

etc.

I just don't see Fedorov making up the gap in his other skills. He definitely closes the gap and this is basically the only time he can be argued to the same level as Lemieux/Gretzky, but i would not put him ahead of either.
If we're ranking everything equally on a 100-point scale, and totaling them as the "final" verdict, I don't see how this can't go Fedorov. He gets 100 points in skating, 90-100 points in defense (the poll was limited to forwards); or if you prefer to consider a full overall defensive ranking despite that, probably closer to 85. Gretzky would be around a 60 in skating and a 70 in defense (forwards) or 40-50 (including defensemen).

So going based on the three established scores for the thread so far:

Skating: Fedorov 100, Gretzky 60
Hockey IQ: Fedorov 75, Gretzky 100
Defense: Fedorov 100, Gretzky 60

We need to establish scores for the other skills.

Overall shooting ability:
Fedorov had a hard and accurate shot, and could score every which way from Sunday. Gretzky had a very accurate shot, didn't have much in the way of a slapper, but was the most prolific goal scorer in league history because of how he used his shot.
Fedorov 85, Gretzky 80

Passing:
Fedorov was a very effective passer. Gretzky is Gretzky.
Fedorov 90, Gretzky 100

Playmaking:
Fedorov was able to create offensive plays that few in the league could have recreated. Gretzky could do things nobody could do, before nobody did them.
Fedorov 85, Gretzky 100

Puck control:
Fedorov was able to take the puck and do things with it; deke, dangle, and carry it through traffic two-handed and even one-handed and low-speed or high-speed (and I'm talking Fedorov-speed) without difficulty. Gretzky had the puck on a string, and was one of the best puckhandlers the game has ever seen.
Fedorov 85, Gretzky 90

Totaling that out, I come up with these averages:
Fedorov 88.6, Gretzky 84.3

Totaling everything except "Hockey IQ", and then multiplying the average by that number (as a percentage):
Fedorov 68.1, Gretzky 81.7

I think the first number answers the OP's question, and the second number is more indicative of actual performance.

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03-19-2013, 09:10 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I was kind of either way on that; Coffey had better judgement of what was going on when his team had the puck, Bourque was the opposite. I gave it to Coffey but really could have gone either way; probably should have been a draw. More like "offensive sense" and "defensive sense" needed to be split up.



If we're ranking everything equally on a 100-point scale, and totaling them as the "final" verdict, I don't see how this can't go Fedorov. He gets 100 points in skating, 90-100 points in defense (the poll was limited to forwards); or if you prefer to consider a full overall defensive ranking despite that, probably closer to 85. Gretzky would be around a 60 in skating and a 70 in defense (forwards) or 40-50 (including defensemen).

So going based on the three established scores for the thread so far:

Skating: Fedorov 100, Gretzky 60
Hockey IQ: Fedorov 75, Gretzky 100
Defense: Fedorov 100, Gretzky 60

We need to establish scores for the other skills.

Overall shooting ability:
Fedorov had a hard and accurate shot, and could score every which way from Sunday. Gretzky had a very accurate shot, didn't have much in the way of a slapper, but was the most prolific goal scorer in league history because of how he used his shot.
Fedorov 85, Gretzky 80

Passing:
Fedorov was a very effective passer. Gretzky is Gretzky.
Fedorov 90, Gretzky 100

Playmaking:
Fedorov was able to create offensive plays that few in the league could have recreated. Gretzky could do things nobody could do, before nobody did them.
Fedorov 85, Gretzky 100

Puck control:
Fedorov was able to take the puck and do things with it; deke, dangle, and carry it through traffic two-handed and even one-handed and low-speed or high-speed (and I'm talking Fedorov-speed) without difficulty. Gretzky had the puck on a string, and was one of the best puckhandlers the game has ever seen.
Fedorov 85, Gretzky 90

Totaling that out, I come up with these averages:
Fedorov 88.6, Gretzky 84.3

Totaling everything except "Hockey IQ", and then multiplying the average by that number (as a percentage):
Fedorov 68.1, Gretzky 81.7

I think the first number answers the OP's question, and the second number is more indicative of actual performance.
Basically that is the way i am looking at it.

But i disagree with your points.

If gretzky is 100 at playmaking it makes Lemieux around 90-95 and Oates and Thornton around 80 which i think gives Fedorov somewhere around 60-70

But yes, that would be my way of looking it too. This kind of comparison puts Fedorov in the same planet as Lemieux Gretzky. He has lower highs but he also has significantly lower lows. This evens the playfield in favor of Fedorov.

Now if the question would be about who utilized his skills to the best extend, the answer becomes different.

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03-19-2013, 09:35 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I was kind of either way on that; Coffey had better judgement of what was going on when his team had the puck, Bourque was the opposite. I gave it to Coffey but really could have gone either way; probably should have been a draw. More like "offensive sense" and "defensive sense" needed to be split up.



If we're ranking everything equally on a 100-point scale, and totaling them as the "final" verdict, I don't see how this can't go Fedorov. He gets 100 points in skating, 90-100 points in defense (the poll was limited to forwards); or if you prefer to consider a full overall defensive ranking despite that, probably closer to 85. Gretzky would be around a 60 in skating and a 70 in defense (forwards) or 40-50 (including defensemen).

So going based on the three established scores for the thread so far:

Skating: Fedorov 100, Gretzky 60
Hockey IQ: Fedorov 75, Gretzky 100
Defense: Fedorov 100, Gretzky 60

We need to establish scores for the other skills.

Overall shooting ability:
Fedorov had a hard and accurate shot, and could score every which way from Sunday. Gretzky had a very accurate shot, didn't have much in the way of a slapper, but was the most prolific goal scorer in league history because of how he used his shot.
Fedorov 85, Gretzky 80

Passing:
Fedorov was a very effective passer. Gretzky is Gretzky.
Fedorov 90, Gretzky 100

Playmaking:
Fedorov was able to create offensive plays that few in the league could have recreated. Gretzky could do things nobody could do, before nobody did them.
Fedorov 85, Gretzky 100

Puck control:
Fedorov was able to take the puck and do things with it; deke, dangle, and carry it through traffic two-handed and even one-handed and low-speed or high-speed (and I'm talking Fedorov-speed) without difficulty. Gretzky had the puck on a string, and was one of the best puckhandlers the game has ever seen.
Fedorov 85, Gretzky 90

Totaling that out, I come up with these averages:
Fedorov 88.6, Gretzky 84.3

Totaling everything except "Hockey IQ", and then multiplying the average by that number (as a percentage):
Fedorov 68.1, Gretzky 81.7

I think the first number answers the OP's question, and the second number is more indicative of actual performance.
And this is kind of what I was pointing out earlier about Fedorov being overrated. If he's got a score of 88.6 and Gretzky 84.3, you'd think he'd have more scoring titles, records, etc to go with it. You'd think that this incredible and diverse toolset with no real weaknesses would translate into some sort of super human results. Not necessarily more points than Gretzky because of the era, but surely he must have dominated his peers in similar fashion.

But he didn't. Howe had a diverse and amazing tool set, and look at the results. Orr did too. Look at those results. Lemieux had diverse offensive skills, but no defense ones. Still, they translated into statistical domination. Gretzky of course. And then we have Fedorov, who apparently has the most amazing skill set of everyone on this list, yet no scoring titles, only a couple top 10 finishes in points in his career, etc. Certainly he was a great player. Defensively he was probably the best on the list we were given. But he is behind in every offensive category IMO, and quite significantly when compared to Gretzky and Lemieux.

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03-19-2013, 10:27 AM
  #97
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That's because SKILLS have nothing to do with STATS.

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03-19-2013, 11:14 AM
  #98
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Fedorov is clearly the most popular character in here.

People either love him or hate him. This is another proof of his greatness.

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03-19-2013, 11:20 AM
  #99
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Datsyuk should be on that list over Kovalev for sure. All Kovalev had was puckhandling and a shot...

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03-19-2013, 11:20 AM
  #100
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That's because SKILLS have nothing to do with STATS.
And it doesn't have anything to do with potential either.

When I think of Fedorov, that's what I think; potential. Everyone says he was unbelievably talented but it only came out sometimes, usually the playoffs. His stats do mean something, if he had so much skill set, why did it never show on the stat sheets? Either way, Fedorov gets exposed as overrated or lazy, both of which has been common criticism of Fedorov. One season of elite like playing, is just not enough, to over take the Great One and list of others. Gretzky has 10 to 15 of those elite seasons, why not the most gifted player in Fedorov?

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