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Alain Vigneault/coaching discussion thread - Part 4

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Old
03-19-2013, 12:28 PM
  #651
Tiranis
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Originally Posted by stickside View Post
oh, i'm sorry. i thought you said earlier hockey wasn't complicated.
It's an easy sport to grasp. But these guys have to execute without thinking due to how fast the game is. You switch the system in the playoffs and all you'll end up doing is losing all your games because players aren't making the right reads because they're not in sync and need an extra second to process.

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Originally Posted by stickside View Post
so they're not able to adjust their system based on which teams they play? so much for pre-scouting.
What do you think 'adjusting a system' means? They make minute adjustments to counter other teams within the structure that they've established and play within. For example, most teams in the league use a 2-man forecheck against the Canucks now because it takes away time from our D and allows them to cover the passing lanes better. They don't design a whole freaking gameplan from scratch that is completely different from the one they used against their previous opponent.

---

I don't even understand why the onus is on me to backup my opinion. I've done it a million times and others have posted similar stuff on this topic. Not a single AV supporter, except for Scurr a long time back, has done a decent job arguing for AV's system. I haven't seen one single argument that explains why the way AV has them playing will be successful in the long run and how the system he's running will allow us to maximize our chances.

Personally, I don't see a good argument for it which is why I'm in favour of firing AV. But I'm willing to listen, that's the whole reason I post on these boards — to discuss hockey. But you're going to have to do better than 'it's a good system because he's a good coach'.


Last edited by Tiranis: 03-19-2013 at 12:33 PM.
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Old
03-19-2013, 12:33 PM
  #652
stickside
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
It's an easy sport to grasp. But these guys have to execute without thinking due to how fast the game is. You switch the system in the playoffs and all you'll end up doing is losing all your games because players aren't making the right reads because they're not in sync and need an extra second to process.



What do you think 'adjusting a system' means? They make minute adjustments to counter other teams within the structure that they've established and play within. For example, most teams in the league use a 2-man forecheck against the Canucks now because it takes away time from our D and allows them to cover the passing lanes better. They don't design a whole freaking gameplan from scratch that is completely different from the one they used against their previous opponent.

---

I don't even understand why the onus is on me to backup my opinion. I've done it a million times and others have posted similar stuff on this topic. Not a single AV supporter, except for Scurr a long time back, has done a decent job arguing for AV's system. I haven't seen one single argument that explains why the way AV has them playing will be successful in the long run and how the system he's running will allow us to maximize our chances.

Personally, I don't see a good argument for it which is why I'm in favour of firing AV. But I'm willing to listen, that's the whole reason I post on these boards to discuss hockey.
and i haven't seen one reason why AV should be fired. a coach is only as good as its players.

the onus is on the GM

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03-19-2013, 12:34 PM
  #653
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a coach is only as good as its players.
Why even have a coach? Considering how Phoenix seems to beat the odds every year, I think that statement is very flawed.

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Old
03-19-2013, 12:35 PM
  #654
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stickside View Post
and i haven't seen one reason why AV should be fired. a coach is only as good as its players.

the onus is on the GM
Barry Trotz's tenure says hi.

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03-19-2013, 12:36 PM
  #655
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
The other thing to keep in mind about AV: he was always a defensively-minded coach who played the percentages prior to the transformation Gillis brought about. The team is reverting back to its AV roots and does it suprise anyone that AV doesn't have a problem with that? That's HIS hockey, that's how he likes it.



Convincing argument you have there. Sold.
Again I agree so much, and it is so evident at the moment. From just the combinations he puts on the ice to adjustments he makes.

I just go back, over and over again to that game in Edmonton a few years back, and I see it happening all over again.

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Old
03-19-2013, 12:38 PM
  #656
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Why even have a coach?
really? seriously?

i guess you want the GM to juggle lines when injuries happen? Or maybe the GM can argue with officials too. Just a second..the GM is faxing who he wants in the shootout. everyone wait...the GM is coming down from the rafters to draw up a plan while we've got the goalie pulled.

i'm being sarcastic here, but i think we all know why a coach is needed.

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03-19-2013, 12:38 PM
  #657
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I don't even understand why the onus is on me to backup my opinion. I've done it a million times and others have posted similar stuff on this topic. Not a single AV supporter, except for Scurr a long time back, has done a decent job arguing for AV's system. I haven't seen one single argument that explains why the way AV has them playing will be successful in the long run and how the system he's running will allow us to maximize our chances.
That's what I'm wondering as well. Those who are arguing personnel and injuries at centre being the overriding factor in the Canucks' play seem to be wilfully ignoring that this team looked much the same last year when they had an abundance of NHL depth at C.

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03-19-2013, 12:40 PM
  #658
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Originally Posted by stickside View Post
really? seriously?

i guess you want the GM to juggle lines when injuries happen? Or maybe the GM can argue with officials too. Just a second..the GM is faxing who he wants in the shootout. everyone wait...the GM is coming down from the rafters to draw up a plan while we've got the goalie pulled.

i'm being sarcastic here, but i think we all know why a coach is needed.
I do. Based on your description...

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03-19-2013, 12:41 PM
  #659
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Quote:
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and i haven't seen one reason why AV should be fired. a coach is only as good as its players.

the onus is on the GM
For the 100th time - we're not talking about beating the likes of the NHL team leaders right now - this team has difficulty with the likes of the Wild, Blue Jackets, and Flames.

How the **** is that on Gillis? Blame Gillis for the lineup but AV deserves his fair share of the blame for not getting the most of what he's got.

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03-19-2013, 12:44 PM
  #660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stickside View Post
really? seriously?

i guess you want the GM to juggle lines when injuries happen? Or maybe the GM can argue with officials too. Just a second..the GM is faxing who he wants in the shootout. everyone wait...the GM is coming down from the rafters to draw up a plan while we've got the goalie pulled.

i'm being sarcastic here, but i think we all know why a coach is needed.
What you've described probably makes up 10% of what it takes to be an effective coach in the NHL.

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03-19-2013, 12:45 PM
  #661
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It's funny that some of the same people that want AV retained seem to reduce his role to being a monkey who throws together some players to make lines and selects some guys for the shootout, with his apex of responsibility being drawing up an empty net game plan. Why in the world would the organization pay $2m or more for someone like that?

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03-19-2013, 12:48 PM
  #662
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Sedins Burrows
Raymond Ebbett Hansen
Higgins Lapierre Weise
Sestito Schroeder Pinni

There's the problem right there. That is not a lineup that can win NHL games.

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03-19-2013, 12:53 PM
  #663
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Originally Posted by stickside View Post
oh, i'm sorry. i thought you said earlier hockey wasn't complicated.

so they're not able to adjust their system based on which teams they play? so much for pre-scouting.
This is one of the most entertaining examples I've seen in awhile of arguing in bad faith..

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Old
03-19-2013, 12:58 PM
  #664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blendini View Post
Sedins Burrows
Raymond Ebbett Hansen
Higgins Lapierre Weise
Sestito Schroeder Pinni

There's the problem right there. That is not a lineup that can win NHL games.
With our defence and Luongo or Schneider in the net, that line up should be able to win games in the NW division.

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03-19-2013, 01:04 PM
  #665
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
For the 100th time - we're not talking about beating the likes of the NHL team leaders right now - this team has difficulty with the likes of the Wild, Blue Jackets, and Flames.

How the **** is that on Gillis? Blame Gillis for the lineup but AV deserves his fair share of the blame for not getting the most of what he's got.
Because are lineup is no better than those teams. We spend about 2.5 million on three centers. We spend 4 million on our backup goalie and 4.2 million on an extra d man. Is that a good use of resources? I think Gillis before this year has done a great job. This year he has left a glaring hole in the lineup. Ofcourse the team is struggling.

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03-19-2013, 01:08 PM
  #666
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Because are lineup is no better than those teams.
I respectfully disagree.

With the blueline & goaltending and a legit 1st line; this team should be better than those teams.

They're playing like a lottery pick team - a coach is suppposed to get the most out his team.

The Sens lost their #1 center, #1 defenseman and #1 goalie and they still have a greater compete level than the Canucks.

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03-19-2013, 01:08 PM
  #667
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Quote:
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Because are lineup is no better than those teams.
Reread the last sentence from the post you quoted.

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03-19-2013, 01:12 PM
  #668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catamarca Livin View Post
Because are lineup is no better than those teams. We spend about 2.5 million on three centers. We spend 4 million on our backup goalie and 4.2 million on an extra d man. Is that a good use of resources? I think Gillis before this year has done a great job. This year he has left a glaring hole in the lineup. Ofcourse the team is struggling.
Another failure to address the uninspired play of the latter half of last season. This isn't new.

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03-19-2013, 01:24 PM
  #669
Tiranis
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Just a small snippet from Friedman's 30 thoughts:

Quote:
25. One scout on Ottawa: "It's amazing how much they look like Detroit, the way they pressure the puck and support it." The Paul MacLean influence, of course.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...lationary.html

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03-19-2013, 01:25 PM
  #670
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
I respectfully disagree.

With the blueline & goaltending and a legit 1st line; this team should be better than those teams.

They're playing like a lottery pick team - a coach is suppposed to get the most out his team.

The Sens lost their #1 center, #1 defenseman and #1 goalie and they still have a greater compete level than the Canucks.
Agreed. The players want to compete but the system has been figured out by the opposition, and AV has no new ideas about how to implement changes that work for the team.

This is a situation we've all seen before. AV's had a good run here; time to move on now.

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03-19-2013, 01:28 PM
  #671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Tony View Post
Reread the last sentence from the post you quoted.
I guess i agree with the quote that there is blame for both. I just disagree who deserves more blame. I disagree with a GM who fires a coach without giving the coach a viable lineup. This is not a viable playoff lineup. With those three centers a team should not make the playoffs. I challenge others to find a worse group of centers lines 2 to 4 in the league.

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03-19-2013, 01:31 PM
  #672
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catamarca Livin View Post
I guess i agree with the quote that there is blame for both. I just disagree who deserves more blame. I disagree with a GM who fires a coach without giving the coach a viable lineup. This is not a viable playoff lineup. With those three centers a team should not make the playoffs. I challenge others to find a worse group of centers lines 2 to 4 in the league.
Smith
Turris
Zibanejad
Regin

That's not even mentioning their wingers or their D or that they have a prospect in net.

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03-19-2013, 01:46 PM
  #673
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
It's funny that some of the same people that want AV retained seem to reduce his role to being a monkey who throws together some players to make lines and selects some guys for the shootout, with his apex of responsibility being drawing up an empty net game plan. Why in the world would the organization pay $2m or more for someone like that?
i had a sneaking suspicion you'd take my sarcastic coaching comment literally

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Old
03-19-2013, 01:46 PM
  #674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blendini View Post
Sedins Burrows
Raymond Ebbett Hansen
Higgins Lapierre Weise
Sestito Schroeder Pinni

There's the problem right there. That is not a lineup that can win NHL games.
thank-you. it's not rocket science is it

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03-19-2013, 01:47 PM
  #675
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Originally Posted by Finkle is Einhorn View Post
What you've described probably makes up 10% of what it takes to be an effective coach in the NHL.
you don't say

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