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Fedorov vs. Selanne

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Old
03-19-2013, 03:21 AM
  #401
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
What do you mean by this? It was 03/04 Season when Fedorov played with Ducks? Are you implying that it was the only time Fedorov played with bad linemates?
Who's lumping everything into the "bad linemates basket"? Between what he was asked to do, who he was asked to do it with, and who was doing the asking, in each city along the way mind you, there's a lot to look at if someone needs an explanation for how a Fedorov scoring only 30-some goals and 60-some points in his early 30s during the DPE could get underrated by spreadsheet warriors a decade after the fact.

But more specifically to that post, there are some who would have us re-remember history, and Fedorov as less than a superstar because of a string of 60 point seasons under Bowman. Well, the Ducks lost possibly the most talented player in their franchise history to free agency, and went out two weeks later to get that 60 point Fedorov to fill in that void because he was still that good.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 03-19-2013 at 03:35 AM.
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03-19-2013, 03:39 AM
  #402
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Who's lumping everything into the "bad linemates basket"? Between what he was asked to do, who he was asked to do it with, and who was doing the asking, in each city along the way mind you, there's a lot to look at if someone needs an explanation for how a Fedorov scoring only 60-some points in his early 30s during the DPE could get underrated by spreadsheet warriors a decade after the fact.
All-right. I guess i get where you are going on for now.

I just addressed the comment in which Eva gave Fedorov 100+ more points by just lumping him in Selanne's place post lockout. I am not saying it is impossible that Fedorov makes up for the 100 points he is behind Selanne. But I do think it is unfair to just make the claim like it is a fact.

I can also make a statement that Selanne would have been Fedorov's equal in play-offs given a chance. I don't like this kind of arguing and that is why i lifted it up.

I agree that Fedorov's offense suffered cause he often was asked to do something else than score. That is something Selanne can't say, cause he was basically useless when he was not scoring.

I still am not sure which one of these two should be considered higher on all-time list. Maybe i don't even need the answer if the next project is about wingers and centers differently. But these two are very comparable in the sense of overall career value.

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03-19-2013, 10:12 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Fedorov played with much better players than Selanne, but after 1995-96 in particular (when Coffey was traded Yzerman started getting the best linemates for good)
Have to jump in here. In 97 Yzerman played with Sandstrom and McCarty, hardly elite talent. Larionov played with Shanny and Lapointe, and Feds -- with Koz and Brown. Next year Yzerman got Holmstrom, and Fedorov got Gilchrist. Talent was spread very evenly. Up until 2002, when Detroit had the best line ever assembled (Yzerman-Fedorov-Shanahan)...on paper, that is

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03-19-2013, 10:17 AM
  #404
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Fedorov played with much better players than Selanne, but after 1995-96 in particular (when Coffey was traded Yzerman started getting the best linemates for good), Selanne was in a much more favorable situation to put up regular season offensive numbers.
Have to jump in here. In 97 Yzerman played with Sandstrom and McCarty, hardly elite talent. Larionov played with Shanny and Lapointe, and Feds -- with Koz and Brown. Talent was spread very evenly.

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03-19-2013, 11:48 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Sometimes it's like no one remembers that Fedorov was the guy that the Ducks went out to get after losing Kariya to free agency two weeks earlier (Col.), and that Fedorov was then moved out of Anaheim before Selanne was brought back to the Niedermayer/Getzlaf/Perry version of the Ducks.
Sometimes it's like you, specifically, don't remember that Fedorov was on the 2005-06 Mighty Ducks until mid-November. He didn't play well, got hurt, and Bob Murray told Brian Burke to move him for Francois Beauchemin in addition to the cap-space Burke wanted. And Selanne certainly wasn't brought back to any Getzlaf/Perry version of anything in 2005, since they were making lengthy mid-season trips to Portland during 2005-06 while the Selanne/McDonald combination went on to have back-to-back 80/90-point seasons.

Someone being targeted for free agency doesn't make them better; it means they didn't want 41-year-old Adam Oates at a $3.5 million option and mistakenly believed Fedorov was going to be an 80-point player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NHL In Depth, December 15, 2003
''It's no secret that Mike has called a number of people in Detroit, including myself, and asked what makes this guy tick,'' Bowman says. ''Personally, what I've noticed is that he seems to be trying to set up everyone and not skating with the puck and trying to make things happen. When he gets that straightened out -- and he will -- you'll see the same old Sergei that we enjoyed watching for so long in Detroit.''

Babcock says, ''We lost two of our best players (Paul Kariya and Adam Oates to free agency) and are looking for players to help lead us. The reality is: When you want to be the guy -- and show that you can be the guy, then the ice time will be there.''
Fedorov, who debuted with Anaheim at a -3 over 24 minutes, ended up playing less minutes-per-game with the Mighty Ducks than he did for the Red Wings in the previous season.

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03-19-2013, 02:07 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Sometimes it's like you, specifically, don't remember that Fedorov was on the 2005-06 Mighty Ducks until mid-November. He didn't play well, got hurt, and Bob Murray told Brian Burke to move him for Francois Beauchemin in addition to the cap-space Burke wanted. And Selanne certainly wasn't brought back to any Getzlaf/Perry version of anything in 2005, since they were making lengthy mid-season trips to Portland during 2005-06 while the Selanne/McDonald combination went on to have back-to-back 80/90-point seasons.
Sure he was. They both debuted that year, played in every playoff game that year, and led the Ducks to their Cup just one year later while MacDonald's playoff production, as usual (like Selanne), simmered down a lot from his regular season pace.

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Someone being targeted for free agency doesn't make them better; it means they didn't want 41-year-old Adam Oates at a $3.5 million option and mistakenly believed Fedorov was going to be an 80-point player.
To be fair, he DID score his 30 goals like he always did, and wasn't far off 80 points (65), all things considered. Since he got his 21 mins/night on average over the '03/04 season, presumably Babcock - even if not "impressed" - couldn't have been too disappointed with what he was getting from Fedorov individually. Problem, like others have already said, is the combination of players playing with him, and the style they were playing under Babcock. Sykora saw his icetime reduced compared to the year before, and had longer periods of being "snake bitten" than we had seen in previous years. Prospal was probably happy to come back to the offensive waters of the newly crowned champs, but too bad it turns out he just missed Cup rings in back-to-back cities.

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Fedorov, who debuted with Anaheim at a -3 over 24 minutes, ended up playing less minutes-per-game with the Mighty Ducks than he did for the Red Wings in the previous season.
Wait, we actually have season ice time averages for those seasons, and Fedorov's averages look like this:

'99/00: 20:05/game Detroit
'00/01: 21:05/game Detroit
'01/02: 19:33/game Detroit
'02/03: 21:11/game Detroit
'03/04: 21:05/game MDA

'05/06: 20:17/game MDA (5 games), 21:06/game CBJ (62 games)

Which was still tops among forwards on the MDA squads, so I don't know where you're going with the ice time point. 6 seconds/game on average points to something larger for you?

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03-19-2013, 02:13 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Sure he was. They both debuted that year, played in every playoff game that year, and led the Ducks to their Cup just one year later while MacDonald's playoff production, as usual (like Selanne), simmered down a lot from his regular season pace.
Yeah they debuted that year. They were 20 year old rookies. Not the Hart winning Corey Perry or prime Ryan Getzlaf.

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03-19-2013, 03:49 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Wait, we actually have season ice time averages for those seasons, and Fedorov's averages look like this:

'99/00: 20:05/game Detroit
'00/01: 21:05/game Detroit
'01/02: 19:33/game Detroit
'02/03: 21:11/game Detroit
'03/04: 21:05/game MDA

'05/06: 20:17/game MDA (5 games), 21:06/game CBJ (62 games)

Which was still tops among forwards on the MDA squads, so I don't know where you're going with the ice time point. 6 seconds/game on average points to something larger for you?
A point of contention was Fedorov having limited ice-time in Detroit because they were deep at center, hence sub-70-point seasons. Anaheim lacked depth, but Babcock felt Fedorov wasn't earning more than that same amount of ice-time - and Fedorov received typically less than 20 at the end of the season.


As for your Getzlaf/Perry point, maybe I'd buy that had they not been demoted to the AHL during the season - and had you not been wrong about Fedorov playing on the 2005-06 Mighty Ducks. I mean, thinking that Selanne signed AFTER Fedorov was traded suggests to me that you don't know that much about the 2005-06 team, hence your belief that Getzlaf/Perry deserved equal billing with Niedermayer. None of them played a game for the Mighty Ducks franchise prior to the commencement of Selanne's 90-point Masterton season.

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03-19-2013, 03:58 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
A point of contention was Fedorov having limited ice-time in Detroit because they were deep at center, hence sub-70-point seasons. Anaheim lacked depth, but Babcock felt Fedorov wasn't earning more than that same amount of ice-time - and Fedorov received typically less than 20 at the end of the season.


As for your Getzlaf/Perry point, maybe I'd buy that had they not been demoted to the AHL during the season - and had you not been wrong about Fedorov playing on the 2005-06 Mighty Ducks. I mean, thinking that Selanne signed AFTER Fedorov was traded suggests to me that you don't know that much about the 2005-06 team, hence your belief that Getzlaf/Perry deserved equal billing with Niedermayer. None of them played a game for the Mighty Ducks franchise prior to the commencement of Selanne's 90-point Masterton season.
Wow,so if Fedorov was being cut at the end of the season to less than 20 per game as you claim but still averaged 21:05 for the year...holy smokes, that means he was skating 25 plus before the alleged cut in ice time. That's a lot of ice time for a forward.

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03-19-2013, 05:10 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I have heard and thought about it myself too. Fedorov absolutely had his production hurt by playing with Red Wings in the 90's. They basically did not have the top-dog in that team and everybody was responsible to play both ends of the ice.

Selanne and Kariya were probably the most defensively free players of the 90's after Bure.

How much did his production take a hit, and how much is there merit to the idea that Fedorov was better offensively than his stats show? I find it difficult to rate him due to the stellar overall play and the fact that he did show capability of top offensive forward but never really cashed in the check.
If Fedorov was put in a situation where he was given more ice time to focus on offense, he probably has a few more seasons that resemble his 1996 and 2003 seasons, but the red wings fans want to believe his defensive responsibility hurt him from having jagr-esque offense, which is just ridiculous.

Even in his 1994 season, he was 4th in points per game and benefitted from the fact that so many players were injured that year. Its a great season, but its made out to be the best thing since sliced bread.

The what if game also applies to Selanne's knees, if he stayed healthy he would have continued to crack the top 10 year after year, at the end of the day thats the main job of a forward, to score. I forgot this is hfboards, they hate people who only score, but offensively challenged players that backcheck are loved.

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03-19-2013, 05:16 PM
  #411
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Up until 2002, when Detroit had the best line ever assembled (Yzerman-Fedorov-Shanahan)...on paper, that is
that's not even the best line in Detroit's history

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03-19-2013, 07:30 PM
  #412
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Yeah they debuted that year. They were 20 year old rookies. Not the Hart winning Corey Perry or prime Ryan Getzlaf.
1st round draft picks just a year away from leading the team in playoff scoring on the way to winning the Stanley Cup Getzlaf/Perry though. That means something, whether anyone is willing to admit that or not. And did I mention Scott Niedermayer added in '05/06 followed by Pronger in '06/07? 'Cause, yeah.

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03-19-2013, 07:42 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
A point of contention was Fedorov having limited ice-time in Detroit because they were deep at center, hence sub-70-point seasons. Anaheim lacked depth, but Babcock felt Fedorov wasn't earning more than that same amount of ice-time - and Fedorov received typically less than 20 at the end of the season.
I personally think that, despite being in a Babcock scheme, earning the most icetime among forwards is more significant than comparison to however he was used in Detroit previously. But is it not of note that he was an 83 point player under Lewis the very year before moving to Anaheim - where he got essentially the same average icetime, as we've just explored?

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
As for your Getzlaf/Perry point, maybe I'd buy that had they not been demoted to the AHL during the season - and had you not been wrong about Fedorov playing on the 2005-06 Mighty Ducks. I mean, thinking that Selanne signed AFTER Fedorov was traded suggests to me that you don't know that much about the 2005-06 team, hence your belief that Getzlaf/Perry deserved equal billing with Niedermayer. None of them played a game for the Mighty Ducks franchise prior to the commencement of Selanne's 90-point Masterton season.
Woah, woah, who put a timeline on anything? Perhaps bad wording on my part. Fedorov was moved before the forming of what I refer to as the "Getzlaf/Perry years" of the Ducks - which, like I just explained in another post, was in full flow by the next season, and continues to this day - which was assembled in front of Selanne shortly after coming back to Anaheim. That explanation seems even more poorly worded, but whatever, lol. Obviously there was a Niedermayer and a Pronger in there as, well, but the point is also that Fedorov didn't end his career with those guys moving pucks behind him, either. Nothing even remotely close. And it was Fedorov's turn to deal with injuries as it turned out, on top of that.

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03-19-2013, 10:06 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Woah, woah, who put a timeline on anything? Perhaps bad wording on my part. Fedorov was moved before the forming of what I refer to as the "Getzlaf/Perry years" of the Ducks
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Sometimes it's like no one remembers that Fedorov was the guy that the Ducks went out to get after losing Kariya to free agency two weeks earlier (Col.), and that Fedorov was then moved out of Anaheim before Selanne was brought back to the Niedermayer/Getzlaf/Perry version of the Ducks.
Probably just bad wording, but yeah, Selanne came back to a Mighty Ducks team in 2005-06 that still had Fedorov - and had yet to see the first franchise games for Niedermayer, Getzlaf, and Perry. So if Fedorov was moved prior to the forming of the "Getzlaf/Perry years," Selanne certainly did not come back to Getzlaf and Perry's Mighty Ducks, as those two didn't breakout for another 20 months or so - after Selanne's 94 points helped get them (58 points, 44 points) into the playoffs.

If you want to argue that they were of great benefit after Selanne returned to the team in February 2008, sure, but those first two seasons in which Selanne was flirting with the top-10 in scoring (3 points away in 2006; 1 point away in 2007) were not because of Getzlaf/Perry.

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03-19-2013, 10:11 PM
  #415
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Wow,so if Fedorov was being cut at the end of the season to less than 20 per game as you claim but still averaged 21:05 for the year...holy smokes, that means he was skating 25 plus before the alleged cut in ice time. That's a lot of ice time for a forward.
i don't feel like doing the math or the analysis, but here's fedorov's game-by-game ice time that year, btw. http://www.hockey-reference.com/play.../gamelog/2004/

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03-19-2013, 10:29 PM
  #416
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i don't feel like doing the math or the analysis, but here's fedorov's game-by-game ice time that year, btw. http://www.hockey-reference.com/play.../gamelog/2004/
21:05 average (20:44 median), but 14 of his last 16 were 20:00 or less. Definitely was getting played less by the end. BamBamCam's math is obviously not accurate, of course.

Again, the issue here is that Fedorov - without the coaches having the pressure to give the second and third-line centers equal minutes - did not earn more ice-time in Anaheim than he had been receiving in Detroit (though it was alleged that his offence was being limited by having to share minutes with other centers). Same minutes, same effort (with public criticism from Babcock), same sub-70-point production.

And it's not like he was purposefully saving his best stuff for April on that team...

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03-19-2013, 10:32 PM
  #417
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1st round draft picks just a year away from leading the team in playoff scoring on the way to winning the Stanley Cup Getzlaf/Perry though. That means something, whether anyone is willing to admit that or not. And did I mention Scott Niedermayer added in '05/06 followed by Pronger in '06/07? 'Cause, yeah.
Bringing up Niedermayer/Pronger to back up your argument is a cop out. They were great players, that's why I didn't comment on that. But Getzlaf and Perry were not star players when Selanne came back to the Ducks. Saying otherwise is re writing history after the fact. They were no better than Slava Kozlov in from 2005 - 07.

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03-19-2013, 10:37 PM
  #418
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Bringing up Niedermayer/Pronger to back up your argument is a cop out. They were great players, that's why I didn't comment on that. But Getzlaf and Perry were not star players when Selanne came back to the Ducks. Saying otherwise is re writing history after the fact. They were no better than Slava Kozlov in from 2005 - 07.
I think it's fair game to mention Niedermayer (though after Selanne's 2005-06 without Pronger, I don't think we can give Pronger much offensive credit for Selanne's 2006-07 - even though Pronger was the best player on the team). I just don't see why he said Getzlaf/Perry and not McDonald though (other than a visceral response to the marquee names that they have since become). McDonald was Selanne's center, and he had two really good seasons with Selanne.

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03-19-2013, 10:40 PM
  #419
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Sometimes it's like no one remembers that Fedorov was the guy that the Ducks went out to get after losing Kariya to free agency two weeks earlier (Col.), and that Fedorov was then moved out of Anaheim before Selanne was brought back to the Niedermayer/Getzlaf/Perry version of the Ducks.
Fedorov was traded five games into the 2005-06 season.

That's after Niedermayer and Selanne (again) were on the team.

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03-19-2013, 10:55 PM
  #420
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I think it's fair game to mention Niedermayer (though after Selanne's 2005-06 without Pronger, I don't think we can give Pronger much offensive credit for Selanne's 2006-07 - even though Pronger was the best player on the team). I just don't see why he said Getzlaf/Perry and not McDonald though (other than a visceral response to the marquee names that they have since become). McDonald was Selanne's center, and he had two really good seasons with Selanne.
McDonald was playing above his skill level and it was plainly obvious. He clicked well with Selanne because he was a swift-skating, playmakerish type. This brought similarity to the Kariya/Selanne combo. Kunitz brought a similar feel to what Rucchin did with the gritty fit, but instead it was McDonald providing the defense.

Getzlaf and Perry were given the chance to take over the team due to Selanne missing the start of the season in 2007-08. McDonald scored 16 points in 33 games before being traded. Selanne would never earn the first line job back. One wonders if Getzlaf/Perry could have happened sooner.

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03-19-2013, 11:02 PM
  #421
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Probably just bad wording, but yeah, Selanne came back to a Mighty Ducks team in 2005-06 that still had Fedorov - and had yet to see the first franchise games for Niedermayer, Getzlaf, and Perry. So if Fedorov was moved prior to the forming of the "Getzlaf/Perry years," Selanne certainly did not come back to Getzlaf and Perry's Mighty Ducks, as those two didn't breakout for another 20 months or so - after Selanne's 94 points helped get them (58 points, 44 points) into the playoffs.
So at least we're on the same page that Fedorov left the team before the "Getzlaf/Perry years" began. Let's just say that Selanne, in contrast, was brought back "in time for" the "Getzlaf/Perry years", then. Those two broke out much sooner than 20 months later, though. Just 12 months later Getzlaf started off on hot with 15 goals by Christmas (none assisted by Selanne, incidentally, although Getzlaf got one helper on a Selanne PP goal). Safe to say it was somewhere in that 12-16 month range (at worst) that a "break out" was pretty official.

By the end of January that year (so, the 17th month), those three names started appearing together on PP scoring plays regularly. Point is, though, that by 20 months later they had already earned the right to the most icetime in game 1 of the playoffs versus the Wild. They obviously broke out much earlier.

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If you want to argue that they were of great benefit after Selanne returned to the team in February 2008, sure, but those first two seasons in which Selanne was flirting with the top-10 in scoring (3 points away in 2006; 1 point away in 2007) were not because of Getzlaf/Perry.
Not right away, sure, but if we're directly weighing offensive production of two players here, over a period of time mind you, isn't it fair to look at the scoring plays over the entire period and take note of the relative abundance of which names appear next to whom, and furthermore take note of the difference between the Babcock Ducks of '03/04 and the Carlyle Ducks of '05/06 forward (of which Fedorov saw 5 games; before "everyone" started clicking/playing regularly, like we've said) - before we simply cease all discussion upon the rules of simple math 80>79>78, and so on?

Since we don't automatically assume that every 80 point guy is "better" than every 75 point guy, there's obviously a method to shifting the goal posts. I mean, this thread is an exercise in exactly that, right, and there are a lot of factors shifting those posts before any kind of "even footing" can be managed. I mean, if Getzlaf/Perry weren't directly impacting Selanne on the scoresheet, surely there's a stretch long before 2008 when Getzlaf/Perry getting first line minutes (most attention from defenses?) left Selanne with quality linemates (a quality centre, most importantly) and in a secondary scoring role. Under Babcock, that might not have manifest itself in many more points, but under Carlyle, in the new NHL, a 70 goal increase compared to '03/04 (184->254) was obviously part of the recipe for future success - what with Getzlaf/Perry highlighting the Ducks' 2003 draft, and ready to make an impact, luring Niedermayer out of NJ after the lockout, and landing Pronger in free agency after the '05/06 season...

Good on Selanne for being healthy and productive over the past years, but again, how many bonus points does Selanne get for them compared to the "demerit points" that I'm reading about surrounding Fedorov's offensive production under Bowman when they were winning Cups, and under Babcock with his rolling 4 hard-working defense-first lines pretty much devoid of supporting talent?

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03-19-2013, 11:02 PM
  #422
quoipourquoi
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Getzlaf and Perry were given the chance to take over the team due to Selanne missing the start of the season in 2007-08. McDonald scored 16 points in 33 games before being traded. Selanne would never earn the first line job back. One wonders if Getzlaf/Perry could have happened sooner.
*groan*

I'm sure that extra 150 seconds each game is why Selanne out-scored Getzlaf 94 to 58.

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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Fedorov was traded five games into the 2005-06 season.
18 games in. Fedorov just missed most of them.

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03-19-2013, 11:04 PM
  #423
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Fedorov was traded five games into the 2005-06 season.

That's after Niedermayer and Selanne (again) were on the team.
"What would soon become the Getzlaf/Perry Ducks".

I'll certainly keep adjusting it as required to avoid as many further pedantic explorations of this detail as possible.

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03-19-2013, 11:07 PM
  #424
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
McDonald was playing above his skill level and it was plainly obvious. He clicked well with Selanne because he was a swift-skating, playmakerish type. This brought similarity to the Kariya/Selanne combo. Kunitz brought a similar feel to what Rucchin did with the gritty fit, but instead it was McDonald providing the defense.
Pretty much what you're saying is Selanne made McDonald a better player but just giving the credit to McDonald for helping Selanne. Selamne was the best forward on the team from 2005 - 2007 despite being in his late 30s.
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Getzlaf and Perry were given the chance to take over the team due to Selanne missing the start of the season in 2007-08. McDonald scored 16 points in 33 games before being traded. Selanne would never earn the first line job back. One wonders if Getzlaf/Perry could have happened sooner.
Getzlaf and Perry weren't over taking Selanne coming out of the lockout. They would and did eventually because they were entering their Prime scoring years while Selannne was entering his 40s. Despite that Selanne still led the team in scoring at age 40.

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03-19-2013, 11:21 PM
  #425
quoipourquoi
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
So at least we're on the same page that Fedorov left the team before the "Getzlaf/Perry years" began. Let's just say that Selanne, in contrast, was brought back "in time for" the "Getzlaf/Perry years", then. Those two broke out much sooner than 20 months later, though. Just 12 months later Getzlaf started off on hot with 15 goals by Christmas (none assisted by Selanne, incidentally, although Getzlaf got one helper on a Selanne PP goal). Safe to say it was somewhere in that 12-16 month range (at worst) that a "break out" was pretty official.
Well, yeah, they weren't linemates...

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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
By the end of January that year (so, the 17th month), those three names started appearing together on PP scoring plays regularly. Point is, though, that by 20 months later they had already earned the right to the most icetime in game 1 of the playoffs versus the Wild. They obviously broke out much earlier.
Getzlaf picked up Marchant's penalty kill minutes after Marchant's late-season injury (hence Selanne playing 2:40 more than Perry on average that playoff). As for Game 1, Selanne played less than almost everyone that game (I can't remember if it was an equipment issue or an injury; still first star though). Hell, Selanne had more even-strength minutes than Getzlaf that game, if you really want to treat Game 1 against Minnesota as a microcosm of the Getzlaf era in 2007.

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