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Bob Gainey's drastic purge.

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Old
08-02-2006, 10:59 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalander977 View Post
Kovy was already there, but you're right he got Dandenault... and Samsonov / M.Johnson this summer...

Most of the guys in the 20 list didn't have any value besides Theo anyway...

Sorry tell you that but it's Gainey who went to land Kovalev for Balej and a second round to the Rangers.

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08-02-2006, 11:43 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pere Noel View Post
A prime and recent example is Bulis...

Bob consciously let him go (he had plan that way before the end of the season) to open up some room for a valuable free agent.

His thinking was... why bother with Bulis as a second line winger... and the end result is that now we have Samsonov to take his spot. Samsonov scores more and knows how to pass as opposed to Bulis.

There we tons of those type of example two seasons ago... we are much better off with the replacements than the original pieces.
What was interesting is that Savard, at the time, was lauded as a genius for the Bulis and Zednik trades which worked out to Zubrus for Zhogy and change.

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08-02-2006, 11:45 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredez View Post
Don't name Kovalev, Huet and Samsonov. Three KEY players on our team now.

Can't you look at things in perspective?

I consider Aebischer a good return for an overpaid and falling Theo. He is a very good insurance policy and he is not a backup he is a starting goaltender.

Radek Bonk, although having no offensive input whatsoever so far, is a beast on the PK. With the goalie depth Montreal had, moving Garon for Bonk and Huet was a calculated risk. Bonk could've turn out to be the big center Montreal needed and Huet could be a decent backup for Theo (WOW did he do better though).

Murray for Hossa = Grit and will vs laziness and skill. Pretty lateral move, but Bob knew that he didn't have place for Hossa on the top 2 lines and that is the only place where he could be effective. Murray on the other hand can fill in very nicely alongside Steve Bégin.

Bob Gainey is obviously a genius. F the haters.
Referring to Bonk as a beast seems to lack perspective.

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08-02-2006, 12:29 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by toshiro View Post
Referring to Bonk as a beast seems to lack perspective.
Agreed x2.

If we try to compare, Bonk was supposed to fill a role I would put in the middle of the road between Johnson and Samsonov.

When he came in, we were all thinking about these stats:

1999-2000 OTT 80 23 37 60 -2 53 167 13.8 10 10 0 1 5 1 0:00 0:00
2000-2001 OTT 74 23 36 59 27 52 139 16.5 5 12 2 2 3 0 0:00 0:00
2001-2002 OTT 82 25 45 70 3 52 170 14.7 6 21 2 1 5 0 0:00 0:00
2002-2003 OTT 70 22 32 54 6 36 146 15.1 11 15 0 0 4 2 17:27 22:37

With these ones representing the bump in the road before transactions:

2003-2004 OTT 66 12 32 44 2 66 98 12.2 6 21 0 0 1 0 17:32 26:18

Somehow, I think these ones are a bit less attractive. They do not show a "beast of a player", either defensive or offensive:

2005-2006 MON 61 6 15 21 -3 52 76 7.9 0 5 2 1 1 0 15:10 44:03

Lets face it, Bonk is a bust.

However, I agree the space we made (i.e.: the contract we let go) is a far more precious element than most of the guys we could have had in exchange.

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08-02-2006, 12:52 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by toshiro View Post
What was interesting is that Savard, at the time, was lauded as a genius for the Bulis and Zednik trades which worked out to Zubrus for Zhogy and change.
Bulis and Zednik did help for a few years.

It was a great trade.

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08-02-2006, 01:29 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
Savard did not make the mess, that was Reggie Houle. The guys Savard brought in were step one of the improvement.

Houles guys <<<< Savard's Guys <<<< Gainey's team.

You can't build all at once. People won't give you greatness for Juha Lind or any of the guys Houle brought in, unless you can get another team to hire him as GM. You have to improve in stages, and right now we are taking the right steps forward.
Very true. Man was Juha bad lol.

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08-02-2006, 01:54 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by CaptCrunch View Post
Agreed x2.

If we try to compare, Bonk was supposed to fill a role I would put in the middle of the road between Johnson and Samsonov.

When he came in, we were all thinking about these stats:

1999-2000 OTT 80 23 37 60 -2 53 167 13.8 10 10 0 1 5 1 0:00 0:00
2000-2001 OTT 74 23 36 59 27 52 139 16.5 5 12 2 2 3 0 0:00 0:00
2001-2002 OTT 82 25 45 70 3 52 170 14.7 6 21 2 1 5 0 0:00 0:00
2002-2003 OTT 70 22 32 54 6 36 146 15.1 11 15 0 0 4 2 17:27 22:37

With these ones representing the bump in the road before transactions:

2003-2004 OTT 66 12 32 44 2 66 98 12.2 6 21 0 0 1 0 17:32 26:18

Somehow, I think these ones are a bit less attractive. They do not show a "beast of a player", either defensive or offensive:

2005-2006 MON 61 6 15 21 -3 52 76 7.9 0 5 2 1 1 0 15:10 44:03

Lets face it, Bonk is a bust.

However, I agree the space we made (i.e.: the contract we let go) is a far more precious element than most of the guys we could have had in exchange.
Gainey stated himself that Bonk was braught in to be our 3rd line center when he aquired him. He was supposed to be the big, PKing center to take Juneau's place. Nothing more. He has offensive skill, but a lot of those stats are just byproducts of linemates. He IS an awesome PKer (Watch our PK - almost every time our PK breaks down, Bonk isn't on the ice) and the best defensive forward we've got. Don't throw out stats, because they don't mean anything, especially +/-.

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08-02-2006, 01:57 PM
  #58
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I think some of you don't understand the definition of the word BUST.
A bust is a HUGE DISAPOINTING LETDOWN who never comes close to acheiving what was expected of them.

Montreal BUST Examples : Hainsey, Trevor Linden, Hossa, Audette ...

Zednik & Bulis were great additions to the Habs !
How quickly people forget !

Zednik had 3 great seasons here out of 4.
He scored 22, 31, 26 goals in those seasons.

He scored some clutch goals in the playoffs : 8 points in 4 games against Boston before Maclaren elbowed him.
He is in no way a bust !
You have to judge him by the entire time he spent here : not just the last disapointing season.

As for Bulis, he was a great speedy 3rd liner who could fill in on the 2nd line when needed. Good on the PK, solid defensively. Overall in the regular season he ended up being an even 0 in +/- for his time with the habs.

Besides, in the original trade we got rid of the albatross of Trevor Linden's salary and an underacheiving Zubrus to boot.

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08-02-2006, 02:33 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by TheHoser View Post
Gainey stated himself that Bonk was braught in to be our 3rd line center when he aquired him. He was supposed to be the big, PKing center to take Juneau's place. Nothing more. He has offensive skill, but a lot of those stats are just byproducts of linemates. He IS an awesome PKer (Watch our PK - almost every time our PK breaks down, Bonk isn't on the ice) and the best defensive forward we've got. Don't throw out stats, because they don't mean anything, especially +/-.
He was supposed to be more than Juneau.

At the very least, he was supposed to do Plekanec's job.

Most level minded people saw nothing more than a shutdown center in the 3rd line, true.

Last time I looked, Plekanec was the one on the 3rd.

In some people's wildest dreams he had a shot at replacing Ribeiro.

Stats tell a bit more than body mesurements, and that's what influenced a lot of people... this big 6'3'' "presence".

How He makes this presence felt last season I never knew. You remember any of his bodychecks?

Some people were talking of bonk as being in the same mold of primeau, brindamour and arnott.

Don't believe me?

Here's a post from the original "bonk is too good to be a third line center" thread, dated 07-12-2004:

Quote:
In all sports and, also in hockey, teams are willing to pay big bucks for offense. The home run hitters and the goal scorers usually get the high salaries.

Bob Gainey is a living proof of that. In his whole career, although the Russian Red Army coach and most pundits all recognized he was the best defensive player of his time and possibly the best player period, Bob Gainey never made more then $200K per year as a player.

So, in acquiring Bonk at $3.9M ($3.5M + 10%), I'm quite sure that BG, deep down inside, was thinking 2nd line center who could play against the other teams' 1st line and score between 20 and 30 goals per season. As such Bonk could be worth $3.9M

As a 3rd line center with a mainly defensive role replacing Joe "don't ask me to score goals " Juneau, Radek Bonk isn't worth half the money the Habs will be paying him.

If Radek Bonk decides to play to his full potential and is given good wingers by Julien, in my humble opinion, he can even be a better center than Saku. He has a better shot on goal and he's much better defensively playing against the Sundins, the Primeaus and the Thorntons of our conference. The big question mark with Bonk isn't talent, it's HEART.
Anyways, to me, Bonk is much described as a bust than anything else.

Who knows, maybe we have a Wayne Primeau in the works and I'm not aware?

Maybe next season will proove me wrong.

with a touch of

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08-02-2006, 03:23 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by CaptCrunch View Post
He was supposed to be more than Juneau.

At the very least, he was supposed to do Plekanec's job.

Most level minded people saw nothing more than a shutdown center in the 3rd line, true.

Last time I looked, Plekanec was the one on the 3rd.

In some people's wildest dreams he had a shot at replacing Ribeiro.

Stats tell a bit more than body mesurements, and that's what influenced a lot of people... this big 6'3'' "presence".

How He makes this presence felt last season I never knew. You remember any of his bodychecks?

Some people were talking of bonk as being in the same mold of primeau, brindamour and arnott.

Don't believe me?

Here's a post from the original "bonk is too good to be a third line center" thread, dated 07-12-2004:



Anyways, to me, Bonk is much described as a bust than anything else.

Who knows, maybe we have a Wayne Primeau in the works and I'm not aware?

Maybe next season will proove me wrong.

with a touch of
I hope for Bonk's sake that he will proove us wrong next season, On Bonk's defense he was injurred for most of the year until past the mid-season, groin injurry can be very deceptive and while he is certainly not a go-to guy I am not sure he would not do worst then Ribeiro if he was to center Samsonov and Kovalev.

I would certaily like to see him center Begin and Murray or Lapierre. He has good chimistry and if I where Carbo I would use him on the PP centering Samsonov and Kovalev. That would leave Ribs at the point with Souray which I think would be a very good option for a second PP squad.

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08-02-2006, 04:08 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by guapo23 View Post
I think some of you don't understand the definition of the word BUST.
A bust is a HUGE DISAPOINTING LETDOWN who never comes close to acheiving what was expected of them.

Montreal BUST Examples : Hainsey, Trevor Linden, Hossa, Audette ...

Zednik & Bulis were great additions to the Habs !
How quickly people forget !

Zednik had 3 great seasons here out of 4.
He scored 22, 31, 26 goals in those seasons.

He scored some clutch goals in the playoffs : 8 points in 4 games against Boston before Maclaren elbowed him.
He is in no way a bust !
You have to judge him by the entire time he spent here : not just the last disapointing season.

As for Bulis, he was a great speedy 3rd liner who could fill in on the 2nd line when needed. Good on the PK, solid defensively. Overall in the regular season he ended up being an even 0 in +/- for his time with the habs.

Besides, in the original trade we got rid of the albatross of Trevor Linden's salary and an underacheiving Zubrus to boot.
That is one of the most level-headed post of the thread.

I must add that Mathieu Garon filled his role as a backup goaltender really well; I don't understand why some people would say they are happy that 100% of the players belonging to the 1st list posted are gone.

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08-02-2006, 04:32 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Lalander977 View Post
For sure this year's edition is going to be better but Higgins , Plekanec and Perezhogin were already in the system...

Anyway, Bobby had to clean the mess caused by A. Savard... So it's quite normal he didn't got much in return for the 20 clowns...
don't forget , savard inherited houles mess , under the circumstance savard did an admiriable job .

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08-02-2006, 04:39 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by J-D View Post
That is one of the most level-headed post of the thread.

I must add that Mathieu Garon filled his role as a backup goaltender really well; I don't understand why some people would say they are happy that 100% of the players belonging to the 1st list posted are gone.

I am just guessing,... I think they only mean we don't need him. Aebischer can do the job just as well and most likely better... and Danis would be a cheaper replacement.

Also note, that the goal was to have Garon be a #1... and at this point, he is struggling at being a solid #1.

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08-02-2006, 05:15 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by guapo23 View Post
I think some of you don't understand the definition of the word BUST.
A bust is a HUGE DISAPOINTING LETDOWN who never comes close to acheiving what was expected of them.

Montreal BUST Examples : Hainsey, Trevor Linden, Hossa, Audette ...

Zednik & Bulis were great additions to the Habs !
How quickly people forget !

Zednik had 3 great seasons here out of 4.
He scored 22, 31, 26 goals in those seasons.

He scored some clutch goals in the playoffs : 8 points in 4 games against Boston before Maclaren elbowed him.
He is in no way a bust !
You have to judge him by the entire time he spent here : not just the last disapointing season.

As for Bulis, he was a great speedy 3rd liner who could fill in on the 2nd line when needed. Good on the PK, solid defensively. Overall in the regular season he ended up being an even 0 in +/- for his time with the habs.

Besides, in the original trade we got rid of the albatross of Trevor Linden's salary and an underacheiving Zubrus to boot.
yes, they were good. So why did Gainey dump them then? Because they did not fulfil the role that was expected of them in the organisation. As such, they were busts. Their purpose was no better than what other bandaids like Perreault or Dackell brought.

These two were brought in in the hope that they could become part of the core for the future. It didn't turn out that way.

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08-02-2006, 06:05 PM
  #65
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You know, I had COMPLETELY forgotten Linden used to play here, man thanks for the bad headaches again.

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08-02-2006, 06:37 PM
  #66
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yes, they were good. So why did Gainey dump them then? Because they did not fulfil the role that was expected of them in the organisation. As such, they were busts. Their purpose was no better than what other bandaids like Perreault or Dackell brought.

These two were brought in in the hope that they could become part of the core for the future. It didn't turn out that way.

The future ???
He was not brought here by Gainey.

Zednik was acquired at the end of the 2000-2001 season to be a part of the HABS future.

He left in 2006 and was a core member of the team during several different stages :
Playing with Gilmour & Petrov, Playing with Koivu & Kovalev...
With him in the lineup we made the playoffs three out of 4 seasons.

ERGO he was a core member of the team's future - from 2001 onwards.

I agree that for 2005-2006 he did not fulfill his role and our expectations.
Zednik didn't contribute as much as was expected for ONE SEASON OUT OF THREE.

How is that a bust ??
We got rid of Trevor Linden and his huge salary and got a guy who scored 20-30 goals per season (except this year).

That is the definition of a successful trade, not a BUST !!!

As for Bulis, he fufiled expectations by scoring 20 goals but he was no longer willing to accept a 3rd line role. So he left.

He was a much better 3rd liner than Dackell or Juneau because he added speed and some scoring punch.

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08-02-2006, 06:50 PM
  #67
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Lets face it, Bonk is a bust.
I disagree. People tend to forget that Gainey traded for him to center the checking line, to replace... Joe Juneau! We needed size up front to check the Eastern conference's big centers in Lindros, Spezza, Sundin, Lecavalier, Thornton (before the trade with San Jose) and Primeau (not knowing he wouldn't be back) just to name a few. Our little forwards simply couldn't handle that task. In Ottawa, Bonk was counted on as a first and second like scoring forward and was playing with highly offensive players.

Secondly, Bonk was bothered with a serious groin pull for most of the first half of the season and kept trying to come back, often too soon and re-agravating the injury. Only in the second half could we see the real Radek Bonk in the role Gainey got him for. He was solid centering the checking line, good on face-offs and great on the PK. Towards the end of the season and in the playoffs, he even started contributing more offensively.

Don't get me wrong, I fully agree that he had a very rough first season with the Canadiens, but I'm far from considering him a bust. I can't wait for this coming season as, like we've seen in the playoffs, many fans will have to admit having been a bit too quick in wanting to pull the trigger on that guy.

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08-02-2006, 07:22 PM
  #68
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guapo,
This is what I mean by 'bust'. When André Savard came in, his plan was for a 3-5 year transition, during which time he would try to keep the team reasonably competitive, and at the end of which period prospects would start to bloom and take their place on the team.

The trade for Bulis and Zednik was not intended for them to be intermediary bandaids. It was intended for them to become a core part of the team for when the team would be competitive. As Gainey's judgement reveals, this did not work out. Yes, Bulis and Zednik were very important contributors while they were here, but they did not fulfill Savard's initial purpose for them. That's why they turned out to be busts. Not as hockey players, but for this organisation.

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08-02-2006, 07:30 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
guapo,
This is what I mean by 'bust'. When André Savard came in, his plan was for a 3-5 year transition, during which time he would try to keep the team reasonably competitive, and at the end of which period prospects would start to bloom and take their place on the team.

The trade for Bulis and Zednik was not intended for them to be intermediary bandaids. It was intended for them to become a core part of the team for when the team would be competitive. As Gainey's judgement reveals, this did not work out. Yes, Bulis and Zednik were very important contributors while they were here, but they did not fulfill Savard's initial purpose for them. That's why they turned out to be busts. Not as hockey players, but for this organisation.
They werent a bust. We got them from Linden and Zubrus. They gave us much more then Liden and Zubrus would have.

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08-02-2006, 08:12 PM
  #70
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They (Bulis & Zednik) were busts but it was a good trade nonetheless.

Everyone happy?


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08-02-2006, 08:21 PM
  #71
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If you want to go earlier...

Eric Weinrich
Vladimir Malakhov
Matt Higgins
Benoit Gratton
Craig Darby
Juha Lind
Trevor Linden
Francis Belanger
Terry Ryan
Jocelyn Thibault(he had his moments)

And we had prospects like Matti Jarventie and Kim Staal running around

It really makes you a bit more thankful for what BG has done to our team.

Juha Lind W T F?

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08-02-2006, 08:39 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by J-D View Post
They (Bulis & Zednik) were busts but it was a good trade nonetheless.

Everyone happy?

Yes, it was a very good trade. Unfortunately, Bulis and Zednik turned out to be bandaids like Perreault and Dackell.

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08-02-2006, 08:42 PM
  #73
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I disagree. People tend to forget that Gainey traded for him to center the checking line, to replace... Joe Juneau! We needed size up front to check the Eastern conference's big centers in Lindros, Spezza, Sundin, Lecavalier, Thornton (before the trade with San Jose) and Primeau (not knowing he wouldn't be back) just to name a few. Our little forwards simply couldn't handle that task. In Ottawa, Bonk was counted on as a first and second like scoring forward and was playing with highly offensive players.

Secondly, Bonk was bothered with a serious groin pull for most of the first half of the season and kept trying to come back, often too soon and re-agravating the injury. Only in the second half could we see the real Radek Bonk in the role Gainey got him for. He was solid centering the checking line, good on face-offs and great on the PK. Towards the end of the season and in the playoffs, he even started contributing more offensively.

Don't get me wrong, I fully agree that he had a very rough first season with the Canadiens, but I'm far from considering him a bust. I can't wait for this coming season as, like we've seen in the playoffs, many fans will have to admit having been a bit too quick in wanting to pull the trigger on that guy.
Ok, maybe I'm a bit trigger happy about Bonk.

Should he know a strong season, I'll bite the bullet.

I just think that we didn't need a replacement for Juneau... we needed an upgrade.

I don't want to make apologies for the Juneau's, Dackell and Sundstrom of this world ever again.

If you can't score or make a pass, be physical. If you can't score, make a pass or be physical, bring energy to your line. If you can't score, can't make a pass, aren't physical and don't bring energy, I don't want you with the Montreal Canadians.

Go play a "defensive system" with the Wilds for all I care.

Having stayed faithfull to the habs for the last few years, I'm sick and tired of the "defensive" stance.

They are just a way to try to make a bad team look good.

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08-02-2006, 08:54 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
Zednik and Bulis were not bandaids, but they certainly turned out to be busts, which is why they're gone. They were expected to be part of the core for many years and to compete alongside similarly-aged guys like Koivu, Ryder and Markov. They were not busts as players, but they were busts for this organization since they didn't fulfil that.
Zednik was a core player for a couple of years...

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08-02-2006, 09:06 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Le Tricolore View Post
Zednik was a core player for a couple of years...
Yes, for a couple of years during which everybody knew that we were in a transition period and that we were not competing seriously. He was no longer much of a core player. Evidence: Gainey traded him for a 3rd round draft pick.

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