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Old
03-19-2013, 09:29 PM
  #851
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Blow it up. A farm system recently ranked 26th, a head coach (who has done well for an expansion team) whose message is stale, and a core that is aged and useless.

Take Rinne, Weber, Wilson, Horny, Josi, new GM, new HC, and start a new brand of "Predator Hockey"

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03-19-2013, 09:58 PM
  #852
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I think we can all agree that we suck. And we can probably all agree that we suck because we have no legitimate first line players.

My question is, whose fault is that?

Ownership? They've said they're willing to spend more money, but haven't actually done it. JR Lind had a string of pretty critical tweets about the ownership a few days ago that I found surprising; he basically put the state of the team on their shoulders.

Poile? Has he really been given the funds by ownership and just hasn't been able to spend them because players don't want to come here? Not sure if that's his fault, but nonetheless...

Trotz? Is his message stale?


We could debate it endlessly, the fact is we really have no idea, unless some of you have a LOT of insider info. I'd love to know who's to blame here, but probably never will....all I know is I'm tired of sucking.

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Old
03-19-2013, 10:11 PM
  #853
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Again, I disagree with it just being a talent issue.

Let's look at players that have left here and done better offensively.

Brunette
Hartnell
Santorelli
Peverley
Ryan Jones

all got better offensively after leaving Nashville.

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Old
03-19-2013, 10:20 PM
  #854
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Originally Posted by AEM6729 View Post
We could debate it endlessly, the fact is we really have no idea, unless some of you have a LOT of insider info. I'd love to know who's to blame here, but probably never will....all I know is I'm tired of sucking.
I'm not picking on you here specifically, but I just had to comment on the last sentence in your quote- "all I know is I'm tired of sucking".

Listen, this season has been miserable- no doubt about it- and it is hard to find a reason right now for optimism.

But I will once again state that there are alot of hard to please fans on here. Saying that "I am tired of sucking" would be appropriate if you were a fan of many teams, such as the Jackets, Oilers, Islanders, Maple Leaf, or even the now long gone Thrashers. I lived through over a DECADE of sucking as a Thrashers fan-now that is misery.

Things look bleak right now for the Predators, I am not debating that for one second. But since the 04 lockout, the Predators have been one of the best teams in the entire league, several seasons of 40+ wins, 100 point seasons, etc, and are coming off one of the best years in franchise history. This season is only 2 months old, and for the first month we were in the top 4 in the Conference- So in reality, the Predators have "sucked" for a little over a month. And we are still in the playoff hunt, which is almost hard to comprehend.

I know in today's society, its instant gratification or nothing, but I still say there are alot of spoiled fans on this board. 8 years of mostly great hockey, 1 month of sucking, and everyone is jumping off buildings and ready to blow everything up. A little perspective is in order here, in my humble opinion. We are not going to win 40 games and get 100 points every year- every franchise has a down cycle and down years- maybe its time for ours, maybe its not, but its only been 2 months- only time will tell........

I know I will get absolutely flamed to death for this post, so I will just sit back now and take my lumps........

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Old
03-19-2013, 10:29 PM
  #855
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Really tough to agrue, you make good points.

People just like to vent after losing streaks. We're really not that used to it....

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Old
03-19-2013, 10:52 PM
  #856
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
Really tough to agrue, you make good points.

People just like to vent after losing streaks. We're really not that used to it....
Thank you for a reasonable reply- and to repeat, I am griping and complaining just as much as anyone in the game threads- as I said, I wish I didn't care so much- but I do- and every loss and every goal against just kills me............

I've said this before, but I'm beginning to feel like I am cursed as a hockey fan- after 10 years of misery with the Thrashers, I finally get to a point where I am a die-hard, live and die with every win and loss- Preds fan, and now we are headed for what looks like our worst season in almost a decade.

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Old
03-19-2013, 10:56 PM
  #857
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so you're the reason.....



lol

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Old
03-20-2013, 09:55 AM
  #858
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When you think about it from the perspective of the forest, one bad season in ten is really good and generally acceptable... but damn, it makes for one ugly tree to get around.

The turnaround that people are demanding will not happen this season. The players we need aren't available at the prices we could truly stand to fork over. Throwing assets around recklessly to acquire veterans when we aren't contenders would turn us into the Maple Leafs, just as sitting on our hands for this year and next will turn us into the Blue Jackets.

For now, we just have to endure it. Give the kids some playing time, sell off whatever assets return a good price (particularly Hannan, maybe Kostitsyn, as well), go into the draft with as many picks as we can accrue, and then be aggressive in trying to improve the team and get us back into the playoffs. That's really all we can do at this point.

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Old
03-20-2013, 10:02 AM
  #859
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When you think about it from the perspective of the forest, one bad season in ten is really good and generally acceptable... but damn, it makes for one ugly tree to get around.
Agreed. Bumps happen and next year could be phenomenal if the team gets a full training camp, new talent, and pissed off vets

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Old
03-20-2013, 11:22 AM
  #860
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Originally Posted by AEM6729 View Post
I think we can all agree that we suck. And we can probably all agree that we suck because we have no legitimate first line players.

My question is, whose fault is that?

Ownership? They've said they're willing to spend more money, but haven't actually done it. JR Lind had a string of pretty critical tweets about the ownership a few days ago that I found surprising; he basically put the state of the team on their shoulders.

Poile? Has he really been given the funds by ownership and just hasn't been able to spend them because players don't want to come here? Not sure if that's his fault, but nonetheless...

Trotz? Is his message stale?


We could debate it endlessly, the fact is we really have no idea, unless some of you have a LOT of insider info. I'd love to know who's to blame here, but probably never will....all I know is I'm tired of sucking.
The ownership is spending. Unfortunately it is on Weber's contract. That is on Poile for screwing around and letting it get to a point where it did. It is also Poile's fault for losing Suter for nothing. We could have had some nice assets from trading Suter. Or trading Hamhuis when he still had a year left. Poile drafts and gets guys who are offensively challenged; we got for 'Predators type players'.

That being said, Trotz has proven he cannot take us to the next level in the playoffs.

They both need to go.

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Old
03-20-2013, 11:59 AM
  #861
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That being said, Trotz has proven he cannot take us to the next level in the playoffs.

.
would you fire every NHL coach over the past two years then? Because only one has led his club into the second round the past two years......

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Old
03-20-2013, 12:25 PM
  #862
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would you fire every NHL coach over the past two years then? Because only one has led his club into the second round the past two years......
That is correct, If you want to see what a coach change looks like for a poor team just look at Buffalo. They fired Ruff a couple weeks back and they are still struggling. If you have a problem on the ice firing a coach or GM is not an automatic fix. Nor is throwing money at players that is exactly where Buffalo is.

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Old
03-20-2013, 12:35 PM
  #863
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would you fire every NHL coach over the past two years then? Because only one has led his club into the second round the past two years......
So how long do we give him?

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Old
03-20-2013, 12:43 PM
  #864
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So how long do we give him?
After making the playoffs 7 times being a Jack Adams finalist twice it going to be tanking 3 or 4 seasons before he is booted IMO.

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Old
03-20-2013, 12:50 PM
  #865
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Originally Posted by drwpreds View Post
I'm not picking on you here specifically, but I just had to comment on the last sentence in your quote- "all I know is I'm tired of sucking".

Listen, this season has been miserable- no doubt about it- and it is hard to find a reason right now for optimism.

But I will once again state that there are alot of hard to please fans on here. Saying that "I am tired of sucking" would be appropriate if you were a fan of many teams, such as the Jackets, Oilers, Islanders, Maple Leaf, or even the now long gone Thrashers. I lived through over a DECADE of sucking as a Thrashers fan-now that is misery.

Things look bleak right now for the Predators, I am not debating that for one second. But since the 04 lockout, the Predators have been one of the best teams in the entire league, several seasons of 40+ wins, 100 point seasons, etc, and are coming off one of the best years in franchise history. This season is only 2 months old, and for the first month we were in the top 4 in the Conference- So in reality, the Predators have "sucked" for a little over a month. And we are still in the playoff hunt, which is almost hard to comprehend.

I know in today's society, its instant gratification or nothing, but I still say there are alot of spoiled fans on this board. 8 years of mostly great hockey, 1 month of sucking, and everyone is jumping off buildings and ready to blow everything up. A little perspective is in order here, in my humble opinion. We are not going to win 40 games and get 100 points every year- every franchise has a down cycle and down years- maybe its time for ours, maybe its not, but its only been 2 months- only time will tell........

I know I will get absolutely flamed to death for this post, so I will just sit back now and take my lumps........
Well said. I also respect that Preds fans hate to watch the team lose and actually care. It's nice to see. A lot of it is just venting. Sometimes watching a Trotz team is like beating your head up against a cement
wall especially if the system is not working. Also with the rising success of the Preds it's time for them to learn when to let players go to continue to move forward instead of backwards.

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Old
03-20-2013, 01:00 PM
  #866
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Originally Posted by token grinder View Post
would you fire every NHL coach over the past two years then? Because only one has led his club into the second round the past two years......
Led the club to the second round, whoooooooooooo. I'm sorry but that's all that we've able to accomplish over the years. Don't you think after 15 years in the league we could aspire to more than just making it to the second round? I would hope that ownership desires more. I would hope the players and coaches want more. I would hope that Poile wants more.

Someone put a stat up what the other longest tenured coaches in the NFL, MLB and the NBA have done over their careers. All of them had championships. Even Ruff, who was fired was able to make it to the Finals one year or was that the Conference Finals? Either way, that's what we need to be shooting for. 29 teams don't win a Cup every year. 29 other teams have fired a coach during the span of our existence. Guess what, some of those teams won Cups after coaching changes, some went on to do nothing. The adage that we don't know what could happen is old. We see what's happening now and if anyone is pleased with it then that's their right. I am none too pleased.

When the coach makes a comment of we talked about this very thing today and we didn't pay attention to detail and it cost us, that shows me the guys have checked out mentally. This was in reference to Nikitin's goal. How many times are they going to talk about stuff and not correct it? At a certain point you have to think it's been a great run for Trotz but this is absurd. Even Rinne looks like he's been throwing in the towel.

Something has happened in that locker room that seems to have messed with the chemistry. Guys whack at Rinne and our guys just stand by and watch. Guys hit our guys late and we stand and watch. There is no fire. There is no I've got your back mentality.

If you were a player in the locker room would you be thrilled with the coaching staff? Play hard all last year to be replaced by malcontents like Rads and AK in the playoffs? If I were a guy that busted my tail to be replaced by guys who would rather be out partying I would be pretty ticked off too. I would lose a lot of respect for the coaches as well. While I liked the moves of AK and bringing back Rads, I think it tore that locker room apart. It was a calculated risk and not only did it not work last year, it has hurt us this year.

While I'm not a fan of young guys making mistakes on the ice, Smith and Blum have taken the wrath of Trotz this year and you can see it in their games. Growth is part of the game. Making mistakes is part of the game. If Trotz can put SK out after his blunder the other night, why did Smith get benched? Did he do something that severe where he needed to sit? We needed goals last night and one of our better offensive players is sitting on the bench. The punishment that is doled out by Trotz is not consistent and it has to wear on the players. I know it wears on me having to watch him do it and wonder WTF he's doing.

I'm just over it. I don't mind losing but giving up is another thing altogether. Our teams have always prided themselves on hard work and I'm just not seeing it from everyone on a nightly basis. It's sad to be honest and if guys aren't buying into the team, there's something going on that we don't see.

I would also consider removing Poile as well. While the moves at the time made sense, keeping Hamhuis and Suter, asset management was poor. If we thought we had a real chance at making a run, keeping one or the other made sense. To lose both and get nothing in return was a poor choice. Did we really think that keeping Hamhuis made us better prepared for the playoffs or a deep run with him? We should have at least gotten something for him. I can understand holding on to Suter as I felt we had the team to make a run last year. It was also thought that he'd re-sign as well. That didn't happen and we ended up losing a top pairing guy and a solid second pairing guy for nothing. Sometimes you have to take risks but in doing so, we have a massive hole in our defense that has not been replaced and we have no one to fill that hole right now. Imagine if we had Hamhuis or Suter on this team still, we'd have arguably the best top 4 in the game. What if we had gotten an asset or two in return? No easy answers for sure.

I'm just at the point of I think change is needed. A new voice. A new system. It really can't get much worse than what we've seen lately could it?

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Old
03-20-2013, 01:11 PM
  #867
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Let's be fair. Compare what we've done to the other teams that came in around the same time.

Minnasota has made it to the 3rd round but overall, they've not been nearly as successful as Nashville.

Atlanta is now Winnipeg, have they won a playoff game?

CBJ, have they won a playoff game?

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Old
03-20-2013, 01:22 PM
  #868
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Let's be fair. Compare what we've done to the other teams that came in around the same time.

Minnasota has made it to the 3rd round but overall, they've not been nearly as successful as Nashville.

Atlanta is now Winnipeg, have they won a playoff game?

CBJ, have they won a playoff game?


Shoot add St louis to the list 45 years and they have never won a cup. 24 coaches over the years including some of the best to ever be behind the bench.

The big thing is this fanbase has not experienced a hockey team go backwards in its history. Making the playoffs 7 times has created a fanbase that expects it every year. I have said it before sports fans in Tennessee are fickle as long as you have a winner theres enough support if a team struggles the fans run and hide until the team is a winner again. Ask Bud Adams, Phil Fulmer, Derk Dooley.

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03-20-2013, 01:30 PM
  #869
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Shoot add St louis to the list 45 years and they have never won a cup. 24 coaches over the years including some of the best to ever be behind the bench.

The big thing is this fanbase has not experienced a hockey team go backwards in its history. Making the playoffs 7 times has created a fanbase that expects it every year. I have said it before sports fans in Tennessee are fickle as long as you have a winner theres enough support if a team struggles the fans run and hide until the team is a winner again. Ask Bud Adams, Phil Fulmer, Derk Dooley.
Couldn't agree more.

Look I'm not a fan of BT's system or Poile's patience but you can't argue with the results.

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03-20-2013, 01:58 PM
  #870
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Pundits are now putting the playoffs at 55 points.

With 18 games remaining, we have 28 points.

We would need to win 78 percent of our remaining games. 4 more regulation losses. That's it.

And that's just to sneak in.

The sooner some of you admit that this team isn't making the playoffs, the sooner you can start enjoying draft preparation
looking at free agency.

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03-20-2013, 02:11 PM
  #871
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Pundits are now putting the playoffs at 55 points.

With 18 games remaining, we have 28 points.

We would need to win 78 percent of our remaining games. 4 more regulation losses. That's it.

And that's just to sneak in.

The sooner some of you admit that this team isn't making the playoffs, the sooner you can start enjoying draft preparation
looking at free agency.
It usually takes a while for cold hard math to beat down optimism.. but the truth is if there isnt a 4 or 5 game win streak sometime in the next two weeks, we're done

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Old
03-20-2013, 04:55 PM
  #872
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Again, I disagree with it just being a talent issue.

Let's look at players that have left here and done better offensively.

Brunette
Hartnell
Santorelli
Peverley
Ryan Jones

all got better offensively after leaving Nashville.
Brunette's inclusion with one season on a first year expansion team is a bit biased.

Hartnell wasn't exactly an offensive slouch in his final three years as a Pred with 18 goals in 57 games followed by 25 and 22 goals (in only 64 games). How much is from the change in scenery and how much is the result of natural progression is debatable. He put up 24 goals in his first season as a Flyer ... very similar to his Preds performance and has a 14 goal season to balance out his 37 goal campaign since leaving.

Peverley's numbers since joining Boston are similar to his Pred numbers as well. About a point every three games. He, Jones, and Santorelli all benefited from playing one way hockey on clubs that sucked. Jones goal production per game improved only marginally ... the bigger difference is in his assist totals.

Hall regressed after leaving the Preds going from an average of over 14g per season to not sniffing double digit goals since (either realized or pace for his shortened NHL seasons). Ward fell off as well. We've also had several players show up and match or exceed their career bests ... Dumont, Arnott, Sullivan.

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03-20-2013, 06:55 PM
  #873
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Well, depending on your views this could be negative or positive. Preds have been playing .250 hockey for the past 10 games. .500 = a 75% chance for top 5 pick. The Preds have to play .750 hockey to make the playoffs

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03-21-2013, 07:03 AM
  #874
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Brunette's inclusion with one season on a first year expansion team is a bit biased.

Hartnell wasn't exactly an offensive slouch in his final three years as a Pred with 18 goals in 57 games followed by 25 and 22 goals (in only 64 games). How much is from the change in scenery and how much is the result of natural progression is debatable. He put up 24 goals in his first season as a Flyer ... very similar to his Preds performance and has a 14 goal season to balance out his 37 goal campaign since leaving.

Peverley's numbers since joining Boston are similar to his Pred numbers as well. About a point every three games. He, Jones, and Santorelli all benefited from playing one way hockey on clubs that sucked. Jones goal production per game improved only marginally ... the bigger difference is in his assist totals.

Hall regressed after leaving the Preds going from an average of over 14g per season to not sniffing double digit goals since (either realized or pace for his shortened NHL seasons). Ward fell off as well. We've also had several players show up and match or exceed their career bests ... Dumont, Arnott, Sullivan.
Brunnette was coached by BT in the AHL so yeah, he was developed by BT.

Hall is a legit point

I'm not talking about free agents Arnott's best season was with Dallas not Nashville don't know why he was included.

And saying the others played in a more offensive friendly system doesn't help your arguments. Peverley scored more goals for Boston in one season than he did his entire career here.

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03-21-2013, 07:40 AM
  #875
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Brunnette was coached by BT in the AHL so yeah, he was developed by BT.

Hall is a legit point

I'm not talking about free agents Arnott's best season was with Dallas not Nashville don't know why he was included.

And saying the others played in a more offensive friendly system doesn't help your arguments. Peverley scored more goals for Boston in one season than he did his entire career here.
Arnott's 33g as a Pred is a career high. Peverley's 22 goal season was on a team that totaled a whopping 83 points ... his 11 goal season as a Bruin was in 150% of the games he ever played here in a single season. Using AHL development and first year expansion as indicators of if a player was better or worse ... a reach so far Stretch Armstrong would be impressed.

We've had forwards do better as Preds than elsewhere and players who did better after they left. From a team scoring perspective, the Preds have been at the upper and lower end of the spectrum over the past eight seasons. The absolutist comments about Trotz killing offensive talent are patently laughable. Remember, even Hordichuk was a 7 goal scoring machine here.

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