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Phoenix LXXIII: "This Space Available"

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Old
03-19-2013, 04:30 PM
  #101
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Why does everyone seems to think that if priced right this franchise would find an owner in Glendale?

The city gave away 320m$ to a potential owner (covering the actual price of the franchise and then some) and NO ONE bought the team.

Financial question of the day: how much would you pay for an asset that will net you a loss of 10-20m$ a year?

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03-19-2013, 04:36 PM
  #102
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Watching the Workshop live (while sitting on a conference call).... going through the Budget piece now... nothing noteworthy yet but

Quote:
Paul Giblin@PaulGiblinAriz
The #Glendale City Council will meet later today in a closed-door session concerning the #AzCardinals' training camp proposal.
Quote:
Paul Giblin@PaulGiblinAriz
#Glendale City Council will also meet in closed-door session to figure out how to cut ties with the city attorney and acting city manager.

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03-19-2013, 04:39 PM
  #103
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Why does everyone seems to think that if priced right this franchise would find an owner in Glendale?

The city gave away 320m$ to a potential owner (covering the actual price of the franchise and then some) and NO ONE bought the team.

Financial question of the day: how much would you pay for an asset that will net you a loss of 10-20m$ a year?
It's a good question. The market's opinion of the value of the franchise in Glendale is fairly clear. Even with a $300+ million subsidy over 20 years, nobody would buy the team for the NHL's asking price (presumably around $160-170 million). I have a hard time seeing how the new mayor and council will be able to match that subsidy, which would mean that either the NHL has to slash the price dramatically, or some other inducements need to be put forward. The most obvious would be portability of the franchise within a reasonable time frame. Perhaps there is a deal to be made on that front, but I think it is much more likely that a severely discounted price would work out better in the long run for the Coyotes' (and Glendale).

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Old
03-19-2013, 04:45 PM
  #104
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Watching the Workshop live (while sitting on a conference call).... going through the Budget piece now... nothing noteworthy yet but
Interesting. Id assume theres some severance to be paid to both. Would be interesting to see what kind of employment contract Tindalls' got with the City. He was up for Review in a couple of months, so perhaps nothing onerous, expensive. No idea. Never ceases to amaze some of the deals public servants have, be it municipal, state, provincial or federal.

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03-19-2013, 05:18 PM
  #105
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Watching the Workshop live (while sitting on a conference call).... going through the Budget piece now... nothing noteworthy yet but
Sounds like with the "cutting ties" stuff in regards to financials, they're trying to get their house in order. Sounds like the Yotes isn't a "urgent" situation for them. I wonder if they're just waiting for the NHL to make a decision one way or another about the team, and in the meantime taking care of other business. Wonder if this council really is thinking along the lines "The NHL needs us more than we need them" (not saying that's TRUE, just maybe their mental attitude). It certainly seems odd that since the new council took over, particularly after Jan 31, things have been downright quiet and almost "unconcerned".

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03-19-2013, 06:17 PM
  #106
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(...) I agree that Seattle is the most 'logical' destination for an NHL team re: the realignment. But Quebec fits the criteria, mentioned when Winnipeg got Jets 2.0 of the NHL righting old wrongs and coming home again. (...)
Couldn't be more right on this.

"If we have a franchise available by relocation, which is something we try to avoid, I'd like to try and fix a couple of things that we couldn't fix a number of years ago and frankly if the franchise becomes available why not if, as there is in Winnipeg a new building and perspective owner who'd like to own the club, why not go back to where we were? And if Quebec City has people who want to own a franchise and there's a new building, why not go back to where we were and take care of the issue?

You'd like to put them further down on the list, I'd like to right something that we wish didn't happen.
"

- Bettman to Ron Maclean on the Coyotes' situation, May 4th, 2010. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4R-NC9Kjlw 6:22

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03-19-2013, 07:59 PM
  #107
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Sounds like with the "cutting ties" stuff in regards to financials, they're trying to get their house in order. Sounds like the Yotes isn't a "urgent" situation for them. I wonder if they're just waiting for the NHL to make a decision one way or another about the team, and in the meantime taking care of other business. Wonder if this council really is thinking along the lines "The NHL needs us more than we need them" (not saying that's TRUE, just maybe their mental attitude). It certainly seems odd that since the new council took over, particularly after Jan 31, things have been downright quiet and almost "unconcerned".
Ya, decided lack of urgency. From what I can understand, Beacon Sports has in fact been retained to craft an RFP (Request For Proposals) pursuant to the Lease for the building, one with the franchise, the other without, and that that wont be completed until sometime in April. Then, youve got about 45 days to deal with whomever, negotiate & deal. Then, lets say you come to an agreement, whomever, X, Y or Z Buyer, well, they then have to sort the purchase price out with the NHL which should be going on on a parallel track to tendering an offer pursuant to the RFP, however, in the dysfunction swirling around this unholy mess I wouldnt bet on any of them actually, y'know, multi-tasking?

So lets say the thing runs the full 45 days; were now into June.... and lets also speculate that someone does negotiate a 5, 7 or 12yr deal, meets the NHL's asking price, but heh, "need some time to secure financing" or even if they have it, or part of it & their being "creative", Gary having to run it by the BOG's. Then the Lawyers & Attorneys get involved in drawing up formal agreements, and that could take some time.... well, Merry Christmas 2013 and it still aint done, floating around in the ether somewhere. I could very easily see this happening. It seems the road their on. Not hard to imagine. But if their just procrastinating, Weiers and the newly minted Council because they havent got a clue, then ya, he who procrastinates will have decisions made for him.

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03-19-2013, 08:03 PM
  #108
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Couldn't be more right on this.

"If we have a franchise available by relocation, which is something we try to avoid, I'd like to try and fix a couple of things that we couldn't fix a number of years ago and frankly if the franchise becomes available why not if, as there is in Winnipeg a new building and perspective owner who'd like to own the club, why not go back to where we were? And if Quebec City has people who want to own a franchise and there's a new building, why not go back to where we were and take care of the issue?

You'd like to put them further down on the list, I'd like to right something that we wish didn't happen.
"

- Bettman to Ron Maclean on the Coyotes' situation, May 4th, 2010. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4R-NC9Kjlw 6:22
he was pretty hostile in that interview. I guess he is sick of being asked why he puts teams in the south with many open markets north

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03-19-2013, 08:03 PM
  #109
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Couldn't be more right on this.

"If we have a franchise available by relocation, which is something we try to avoid, I'd like to try and fix a couple of things that we couldn't fix a number of years ago and frankly if the franchise becomes available why not if, as there is in Winnipeg a new building and perspective owner who'd like to own the club, why not go back to where we were? And if Quebec City has people who want to own a franchise and there's a new building, why not go back to where we were and take care of the issue?

You'd like to put them further down on the list, I'd like to right something that we wish didn't happen.
"

- Bettman to Ron Maclean on the Coyotes' situation, May 4th, 2010. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4R-NC9Kjlw 6:22
I remember this interview. Quebec is next. Seatle have to wait. they are not ready. More homeworks needs to be done. I dont think Bettman would of come out and said that if he didnt mean it. May 31st is coming quick.

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03-19-2013, 08:12 PM
  #110
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I remember this interview. Quebec is next. Seatle have to wait. they are not ready. More homeworks needs to be done. I dont think Bettman would of come out and said that if he didnt mean it. May 31st is coming quick.

That was 3 years ago things changed since then. Seattle was not an option back in 2010 it is now once NBA approves sale and relocation of the Kings to Seattle.

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03-19-2013, 08:19 PM
  #111
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I remember this interview. Quebec is next. Seatle have to wait. they are not ready. More homeworks needs to be done. I dont think Bettman would of come out and said that if he didnt mean it. May 31st is coming quick.
Ya, I do believe his now famous quote about "righting wrongs in Winnipeg & Quebec" was/is sincere, still valid today, tomorrow, next month, year. If indeed the Coyotes are done in Glendale as of this spring, patience run out, no way no how, unless a Paul Allen out of Portland or someone in Houstons secretly negotiated a deal, I just cant imagine the team going anywhere but Quebec. Id love to see a team in Seattle eventually, Portland as well for that matter, but c'mon here, just too many if's, and's and whats', unknowns. You could be taking the franchise out of the frying pan in Glendale & dropping it right into a fire in Seattle.

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03-19-2013, 08:25 PM
  #112
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That was 3 years ago things changed since then. Seattle was not an option back in 2010 it is now once NBA approves sale and relocation of the Kings to Seattle.
Well, when exactly is this "approval" supposed to happen? Sacramento's putting up some resistance. I dont doubt that Stern wants that franchise out of there no matter what but still.... also on the QC angle, sure things change, but genuinely if not the Coyotes, I do believe one of Bettman's goals before leaving office is to see a return of the Nordiques. If not relocation, possibly Expansion to both QC & Southern Ontario in 2015 or 16, or alternatively, Seattle & Southern Ontario at that time.

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03-19-2013, 08:29 PM
  #113
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Well, when exactly is this "approval" supposed to happen? Sacramento's putting up some resistance. I dont doubt that Stern wants that franchise out of there no matter what but still.... also on the QC angle, sure things change, but genuinely if not the Coyotes, I do believe one of Bettman's goals before leaving office is to see a return of the Nordiques. If not relocation, possibly Expansion to both QC & Southern Ontario in 2015 or 16, or alternatively, Seattle & Southern Ontario at that time.
BOG meeting where the vote will happen is in a month apirl 18-19 with an April 3rd meeting to check on status of things as well as hear from both groups. Sacramento has shown nothing as to why the kings should stay there. They have to match Hansen's offer of 525m to at least be considered by the BOG by April 3rd and approve an arena plan which they haven't yet. So far I have yet to hear if Sacramento submitted a new offer.

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03-19-2013, 08:40 PM
  #114
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That was 3 years ago things changed since then. Seattle was not an option back in 2010 it is now once NBA approves sale and relocation of the Kings to Seattle.
True things has changed. Quebec has started to build a new arena and this was the major issue.

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03-19-2013, 08:58 PM
  #115
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True things has changed. Quebec has started to build a new arena and this was the major issue.
Things changed on both sides. Not saying that Seattle will get the coyotes but don't count Seattle out of the mix for the Coyotes.

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03-19-2013, 09:12 PM
  #116
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True things has changed. Quebec has started to build a new arena and this was the major issue.
What'd you care anyway?.. sucking on Pina Coladas' in Palm Harbour listening to Jimmy Buffet, mebbe a little Harmonium. Hangin out at Peggy O'Neils on Tampa just past Race Track Road with the guys from the Clearwater Hogs Spearfishin Club.

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03-19-2013, 09:30 PM
  #117
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What'd you care anyway?.. sucking on Pina Coladas' in Palm Harbour listening to Jimmy Buffet, mebbe a little Harmonium. Hangin out at Peggy O'Neils on Tampa just past Race Track Road with the guys from the Clearwater Hogs Spearfishin Club.
it's snowing in guelph again tonite. i could go for pina coladas with some parrothead pals right about now.

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03-19-2013, 09:56 PM
  #118
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What'd you care anyway?.. sucking on Pina Coladas' in Palm Harbour listening to Jimmy Buffet, mebbe a little Harmonium. Hangin out at Peggy O'Neils on Tampa just past Race Track Road with the guys from the Clearwater Hogs Spearfishin Club.
Killion I was born and raised in Quebec city and I grew up a few blocks from the Colise. My first job as a paperboy paid for my NHL tickets. Plus eventually the Nords will be in the same division as the Lightning! Couldnt ask for anything better..You sure know the neighborhood in Tampa

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03-19-2013, 09:58 PM
  #119
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Things changed on both sides. Not saying that Seattle will get the coyotes but don't count Seattle out of the mix for the Coyotes.
Yes it did change on both side. Seattle is not out but the chances are not very high.

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03-19-2013, 10:08 PM
  #120
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Yes it did change on both side. Seattle is not out but the chances are not very high.
I think its 50/50 and that really depends on what the NHL wants. QC now or relocate coyotes to Seattle and get bigger expansion fee from Quebec city. Seattle being an unproven market will not get a high expansion fee like QC would get.

Regardless for either city there has to be another market with an arena and an interested group. And who knows when that other market will be ready with an interested group.

What's hurting QC chances is that the NHL is still trying to keep the team there allowing seattle to get things done their end.


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03-19-2013, 10:55 PM
  #121
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I liked the Phoenix Globetrotters idea best. Not that it would ever work, but it's funny and imaginative!

So what else would work? Phoenix has been a dead loss financially, and as CF and so many others have ably pointed out the franchise value in situ seems to be less than zero.

Like make others, I would have thought QC is the most logical destination for next season. However, if an imminent move to QC were a done deal, as some suggest, why on Earth would the NHL not wait to announce realignment concurrently with relocation to QC and in a way that accommodates that relo? Pretty weird plan to announce realignment now in the way they have if the NHL knows it's going to QC anytime soon.

I have absolutely no inside knowledge of anything beyond the fruits of my own imagination (which is to say I know Nothing and could be all wrong), but it sure looks like a move to Seattle, KC or anywhere else has a lot of ground to cover before it becomes reality.

Smarter people than me think that suspending operations is the logical option, but I just can't buy that. Can you?

So, where does that bring the Coyotes for 2013-14? Almost none of the above.

If not QC, then I think staying in place for lack of a better option, unless Seattle can pull a rabbit out of the hat. Every option seems so flawed that in comparison even the Phoenix Globetrotter suggestion, in all its mirth, seems not far behind.

I don't think even the NHL knows what will happen next.

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03-19-2013, 10:56 PM
  #122
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The Coyotes have been shut out in the last, what now, 3 games?

Just sayin

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03-19-2013, 11:12 PM
  #123
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I've been staying away for awhile now. Not much happening.

One thought came to me tonight, though. The discussion about the realignment on this thread has always sort of gone "If the Yotes are moving to Que, why the big hurry to announce the realignment? Do both at once in some fashion." And, that makes sense.

However, in thinking of the realignment. It is not just a "what is best for the League" matter. In reality, all the discussion about realignment actually was probably a case of each team trying to exert as much influence as they had to get what they wanted.
In light of that, one thing that obviously was in the best interest of all the current ETZ teams was to be grouped with only other ETZ teams in their division/conference. This is partly for existing rivalries, and partly for the TV issues involving road game start times. In light of that, let's just assume all the BoG knows that PHX >>QUE in May is a fait accompli. Now, if I am a present ETZ owner, it is in my best interest to do alignment NOW, before the move is announced, so I get my preferred ETZ placement. PKP will have to wait, and take the short straw and be the odd man out (ETZ playing in a CTZ group). So, it makes sense not to wait.

Therefore, I don't think you can guess that the realignment announcement is any indication. It is possible to imagine reasons for it no matter what the next move is for the Coyotes franchise.

This is not a pro-Seattle or a pro-Quebec post. It's just stating the facts that we don't know enough to guess, and that the realignment doesn't offer any real hints (unless we are trying to raise our own level of hope, and therefore viewing with rose-colored glasses.)

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03-19-2013, 11:37 PM
  #124
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Why does everyone seems to think that if priced right this franchise would find an owner in Glendale?

The city gave away 320m$ to a potential owner (covering the actual price of the franchise and then some) and NO ONE bought the team.

Financial question of the day: how much would you pay for an asset that will net you a loss of 10-20m$ a year?
I don't see the NHL lowering the purchase price to $70m or so, which I think many would agree is about the value of this franchise.

Sounds crazy, but the only other way to make the purchase pallatable for a new owner, imo, would take about a ~$480m/20 year arena management deal with Glendale.

Would provide NPV to cover $170m purchase price and about $100m in operating capital.


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03-19-2013, 11:53 PM
  #125
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I've been staying away for awhile now. Not much happening.

One thought came to me tonight, though. The discussion about the realignment on this thread has always sort of gone "If the Yotes are moving to Que, why the big hurry to announce the realignment? Do both at once in some fashion." And, that makes sense.

However, in thinking of the realignment. It is not just a "what is best for the League" matter. In reality, all the discussion about realignment actually was probably a case of each team trying to exert as much influence as they had to get what they wanted.
In light of that, one thing that obviously was in the best interest of all the current ETZ teams was to be grouped with only other ETZ teams in their division/conference. This is partly for existing rivalries, and partly for the TV issues involving road game start times. In light of that, let's just assume all the BoG knows that PHX >>QUE in May is a fait accompli. Now, if I am a present ETZ owner, it is in my best interest to do alignment NOW, before the move is announced, so I get my preferred ETZ placement. PKP will have to wait, and take the short straw and be the odd man out (ETZ playing in a CTZ group). So, it makes sense not to wait.

Therefore, I don't think you can guess that the realignment announcement is any indication. It is possible to imagine reasons for it no matter what the next move is for the Coyotes franchise.

This is not a pro-Seattle or a pro-Quebec post. It's just stating the facts that we don't know enough to guess, and that the realignment doesn't offer any real hints (unless we are trying to raise our own level of hope, and therefore viewing with rose-colored glasses.)
You are right we do not know enough but your scenario is just a guess and it only considers ETZ ownerships reasons for pushing for realignment now. What about WTZ owners concerns? My guess is they would prefer Phoenix to stay in the west for travel reasons. What about NHLPA concerns?

I admit that once realignment was approved I became much more optimistic that Seattle had a 'chance' for the Yotes to relocate here. Call it whatever you want (rose colored glasses) but I had no real strong hope before realignment process.

Your scenario seems to have a little of a slant towards the east but that is just my 'rose colored' view.

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