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2006-2007 Ranger Lines, Include PP and PK

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Old
08-03-2006, 07:57 AM
  #51
Fletch
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tawnos...

I haven't seen anywhere that says he doesn't create room. He isn't a physical force, but him being on the ice attracts defenders and defensive forwards, thus creating room for other to skate.

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08-03-2006, 08:50 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
True Blue... Prucha scored 2 more goals than a 3rd-line Shawn McEachern in 92-93 on the Penguins. The same Shawn McEachern who proceeded to play on the 3rd line the next season in both LA and Pittsburgh. There's one. Now that I found one, can you drop it? 28 goals is close enough to a 30 goal scorer for the purposes of this conversation, and by the way... that was 2 minutes of looking it up.
No, I cannot drop this. Even if McEachern played the entire year on the 3rd line (I do not recall if that is the case or not, so I will have to take your word for it), naming one example in roughly 15 years does not make your case any better, IMO. A once-in-a blue moon situation does not make it any clearly that you should place a 30 goal scorer anywhere but the top-2 lines.
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If I wanted to, there are plenty more out there to find... just gotta do the research.
In order to make your case valid, you have to. Not that I am telling you to, but you need to find enough examples to where such an action is something more than the exception rather than the rule. And make no mistake about it. That is exactly what this appears to be. One example in 15 years does not strengthen your case. Plus let's recall that particular Pens team. Maryo, Jagr, Stevens, Francis...the beat goes on.

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08-03-2006, 08:53 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I'd rather not see Prucha on a fourth line, but I don't know if there's a more optimal solution. We can forget 30 goals from him (even though extrapolated to 82 games it would've been a fair amount more, and if you assumed he wasn't getting less than 10 minutes of ice time which he did and was consistently on the PP, it would be a good deal more).
Fletch, that cannot be optimal. What kind of a message are you sending to a kid who was the 2nd leading goal scorer by banishing him to the bottom-2 lines, so that a 36 year old Straka can play with Jagr and a 14 goal scoring Hall can play on the 2nd line? How can that possibly do anything but weaken your team?

What does Prucha have to do to prove that he belongs on the top-2 lines? That would be like Colarado banishing Hedjuk to the bottom-2 lines after their rookie season.

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08-03-2006, 08:59 AM
  #54
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Sorry TB & Brooklyn...

where I said fourth line, I was meaning to say third line.

As for second vs. third...personally, I'd rather see Prucha on the third line left wing (hopefully with Immonen) than on a second line right wing. I think his best position, by far, is the left side. He's a sniper and he relies on a quick release and an accurate shot. He doesn't get that on the right side as much. We saw it with him ont he right side and I believe Hossa on the left side. It just didn't look right. As long as Renney can find 13+ minutes per night for him, and play him with a centerman more creative than Betts, I won't complain too much. Like I mentioned, it may not be optimal for Prucha, but the roster is what it is today.

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08-03-2006, 09:01 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
where I said fourth line, I was meaning to say third line.
Ahh...there is a difference, but my sentiment remains the same.

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08-03-2006, 09:30 AM
  #56
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Here is my top 12:

Straka Nylander Jagr
Shanny Cullen Hossa
Prucha Jarrko Hall
Hollweg Betts Ward

I could even see Prucha and Shanny swithching places at times. As for Orts, hustle and hard work can only take you so far, there has to be some skill there to back it up, and now there are players on the roster that can bring the same things be brings with a lot more talent.

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08-03-2006, 09:32 AM
  #57
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Much as I would like to, I cannot go through the Hossa debate again. To me, Prucha playing anywhere but the top-2 lines is simply a travesty and no way to reward the best rookie forward the team has had in the last 10+ years.

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08-03-2006, 09:40 AM
  #58
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Hall perplexes me...

I said in another post that Ward was the wildcard, but I actually meant Hall.

I'm a bit reluctant to replace Ward with Hall on a third line. Ward's only 1 1/2 years older and scored more goals and had more assists at even strength than hall (8 goals vs. 4 and 16 assists vs. 9). I'm not sure I'd want to replace that kind of third line production and place Ward on a fourth line. I think you want about 8 ES goals from a guy like Ward (who also potted a couple shorties for a total of 10 goals, 18 assists).

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08-03-2006, 09:59 AM
  #59
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Why can the solution not be to have both Hall & Ward

on the 3rd line? It's what would make the most sense to me. I believe (though I could be wrong) that Hall has played both wings and Ward did not look out of place when he played center, so may he could handle the off-wing properly. A 3rd line of Hall-Immonen (his realistic place)-Ward would be a pretty good 3rd line. Some physicality and perhaps some timely scoring.

In no case does it make sense to me to replace Prucha's 30 goals with Hall's 14 on the 2nd line. Let alone Hossa's 10.

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08-03-2006, 10:44 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
where I said fourth line, I was meaning to say third line.

As for second vs. third...personally, I'd rather see Prucha on the third line left wing (hopefully with Immonen) than on a second line right wing. I think his best position, by far, is the left side. He's a sniper and he relies on a quick release and an accurate shot. He doesn't get that on the right side as much. We saw it with him ont he right side and I believe Hossa on the left side. It just didn't look right. As long as Renney can find 13+ minutes per night for him, and play him with a centerman more creative than Betts, I won't complain too much. Like I mentioned, it may not be optimal for Prucha, but the roster is what it is today.
I agree with this for the most part.

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08-03-2006, 10:54 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
on the 3rd line? It's what would make the most sense to me. I believe (though I could be wrong) that Hall has played both wings and Ward did not look out of place when he played center, so may he could handle the off-wing properly. A 3rd line of Hall-Immonen (his realistic place)-Ward would be a pretty good 3rd line. Some physicality and perhaps some timely scoring.

In no case does it make sense to me to replace Prucha's 30 goals with Hall's 14 on the 2nd line. Let alone Hossa's 10.
I dont know I've said all i can to relay my opinion, but one thing still bugs me about you're argument. You're thinking it as Hall replacing Prucha while I dont think we're replacing anyone, simply utilizing our resources in weaker areas.

A little real life example.

Say you own a corporation (the Rangers) and you have a plant in Mexico (2nd line) and a plant in Bejing (3rd line). Last year, the salesmen at the Mexico plant performed much better than the Bejing plant. This year, you acquire more resources for the Mexico plant (Shanahan and Cullen) which will create better productivity. However, no big improvements have been made to the Bejing plant. My proposal would be to relocate some resources (Prucha) from the Mexico plant to the Bejing plant. This would increase Bejing's productivity without significantly reducing Mexico's to the pont of loss. This may decrease the the productivity of the Mexico plant, but increases the overall productivity of the Corporation as a whole. It can work, it cant work. If it doesn't, we reallign.

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08-03-2006, 11:09 AM
  #62
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Straka-Nylander-Jagr
Shanahan-Cullen-Sykora (now that they have 5M cap space, they NEED to re-sign Sykora!)
J.Ward-Prucha-Hall
Hollweg-Betts-Ortmeyer

Kasparaitis-Tyutin
Rozsival-Malik
A.Ward-Rachunek

PP1: Shanahan-Nylander-Jagr
Sykora-Rozsival (Sykora finally playing the point like he should have)

PP2: Straka-Cullen-Hall
Prucha-Tyutin

PK1: J.Ward-Hollweg
A.Ward-Malik

PK2: Betts-Ortmeyer
Kasparaitis-Rachunek

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08-03-2006, 11:10 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by BigCanada77 View Post
I dont know I've said all i can to relay my opinion, but one thing still bugs me about you're argument. You're thinking it as Hall replacing Prucha while I dont think we're replacing anyone, simply utilizing our resources in weaker areas.
You ARE replacing Prucha on the 2nd line with Hall. A 30 goal scorer with a 14 goal scorer. It does not get more real-life than that.
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A little real life example.
I get your example but NHL hockey does not work that way. Prucha netted 30 goals, 16 of them on the PP & 14 at ES. Hall netted 14, 4 at ES & 10 on the PP. Those are all the numbers that you need to look at. Playing Prucha less at ES than Hall simply makes no sense. As I said, that would be like Colorado demoting Hedjuk following his rookie year. Or the Devs moving Gionta to the 3rd line to spread the scoring out. Or (back to the Avs) do you think that there is ANY chance of Svatos skating anywhere but on the top-2 lines? How about San Jose? You think that Chechoo is going to start the year on the 3rd line? Those are organizations that have been developing players for years, unlike the Rangers.

It is just the natural order of things. A rookie lights the lamp for 30 goals (and it would have been even more than that if he did not get injured...at least 35 or so). The natural progression is to have him be the incumbent on the top-2 lines. That is the way that it goes. To demote him, following such a year is to go against the grain of conventional ways of developing players. Not to mention that such a fine reward would do wonders for his confidence. The kid was the best goal scorer on the team not named jagr. He scored MORE PP goals than Shanny last year. Not to skate him on the 2nd line (even if it is on the off-wing) is simply ludicrous.

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08-03-2006, 11:18 AM
  #64
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True Blue...

...I understand and respect your agreement, and I see that this is a solid way to go, but let me ask you one question.

Say they start with Shanahan-Cullen-Prucha as the second line. And they're doing decent. But the Third line is struggling in the offense, so Renney does switch Hall and Prucha, just to see if it can help. And it does. The second line does better, Prucha isn't producing as much but overall the third line is producing better. And in turn the Rangers as a whole does better. (I know you dont think this could happen but just for the question, imagine by some miracle it works lol).....

Do you say no to keeping the lines like that just on the premise that Prucha should get rewarded for last year and his stats are down?

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08-03-2006, 11:26 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by BigCanada77 View Post
Say they start with Shanahan-Cullen-Prucha as the second line. And they're doing decent. But the Third line is struggling in the offense, so Renney does switch Hall and Prucha, just to see if it can help. And it does. The second line does better, Prucha isn't producing as much but overall the third line is producing better. And in turn the Rangers as a whole does better. (I know you dont think this could happen but just for the question, imagine by some miracle it works lol).....

Do you say no to keeping the lines like that just on the premise that Prucha should get rewarded for last year and his stats are down?
Off course not. But again, the annals of history are simply not littered with such examples. Off course it COULD work, but historically that is simply not the way that it goes.

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08-03-2006, 11:35 AM
  #66
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That's the point, BigCanada..

it's about utilizing the resources to the fullest extent. In a perfect world, I'd want Prucha to play left wing with a guy like Cullen, or a better playmaking centerman, and a decent right winger. That's a role in which I think Prucha can excel. But when you add other variables and try to come out with the optimal solution, Prucha's not on that left wing (Shanahan is). Further, as I mentioned, I think Prucha's more productive on a third line playing left wing, as opposed to a second line playing right wing because I firmly believe he's a better left winger. And as mentioned previously, we will see Prucha on a line other than the third line throughout the season, I believe. Straka may struggle again, or may even get hurt. It's a long season, and I've come to accept what Prucha's inevitable role may be (Renney may have totally different ideas and this may all be moot, for good or bad, but my opinions are based on what I think the current realities are, including what I think Renney may do). I loved the kid last season for his heart and his offensive play, and would've like to've seen him build on that - but this team is looking to do better than last season and decided there were other pieces that could help mold this team for the long-term. Fine. Also, I don't think Renney thinks as highly of Prucha as many in here. I get the sense that he doesn't think of him as a workhorse, and that he's better-suited against third and fourth lines and third defensive pairings. Just a gut feeling. So I'm coming to accept that and don't 100% disagree with that thought.

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08-03-2006, 11:40 AM
  #67
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On your examply, Big..

it's tough to re-locate from Mexico to Beijing due to cultural differences and that what worked in Mexico may not necessarily work in Beijing and you may end up with a tired employee who looks lost at his job. Turn to hockey - it's like putting a player in a role or position in which he is not comfortable, even though he knows the game and how it's played, his partners play it differently and he has to approach the game differently and may not adapt. (OK, what I said doesn't totally relate to this situation, but I was trying to bring the real life example into a different light).

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08-03-2006, 12:52 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
it's tough to re-locate from Mexico to Beijing due to cultural differences and that what worked in Mexico may not necessarily work in Beijing and you may end up with a tired employee who looks lost at his job. Turn to hockey - it's like putting a player in a role or position in which he is not comfortable, even though he knows the game and how it's played, his partners play it differently and he has to approach the game differently and may not adapt. (OK, what I said doesn't totally relate to this situation, but I was trying to bring the real life example into a different light).
I get what you're saying Fletch haha. I guess I think Prucha is rugged and versatile enough to move from Mexico to Beijing. lol That sentence sounds funny.

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08-03-2006, 12:52 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
it's tough to re-locate from Mexico to Beijing due to cultural differences and that what worked in Mexico may not necessarily work in Beijing and you may end up with a tired employee who looks lost at his job. Turn to hockey - it's like putting a player in a role or position in which he is not comfortable, even though he knows the game and how it's played, his partners play it differently and he has to approach the game differently and may not adapt. (OK, what I said doesn't totally relate to this situation, but I was trying to bring the real life example into a different light).
But if you look at my proposed line up, you have a # 1 line with Jagr Straka and Nylander. Then you have # 2 line of Cullen Shanny and Hossa, and a # 3 line of Immo Prucha and Hall.

Your # 3 line this year is better than the a # 2 line of last year with Rucchin as the pivot. I would think that if Renny had the option he would like to go with a # 1 line and a # 2a and a #2b line and a 4th line. So your minutes would break down to around 40% 1st line 25% 2a and 2b and 10% 4th line (give or take a few percentage points here or there). So, in reality you can call the Prucha Immo Hall line the 2nd line and the Cullen Shanny Hossa line the 3rd line, it really does not matter as their ice time would be equal. Then depending on the opponent if one line matches up better they get an extra shift or two.

I personally think a line of Immonen Hall and Prucha could be very productive playing against a 3rd defensive pair. It is not just the "2nd line" or "third line" with a balanced line up (as balanced as can be with Jagr) it should not matter what "line" you are on..........

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08-03-2006, 01:00 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by nyr__1994 View Post
But if you look at my proposed line up, you have a # 1 line with Jagr Straka and Nylander. Then you have # 2 line of Cullen Shanny and Hossa, and a # 3 line of Immo Prucha and Hall.

Your # 3 line this year is better than the a # 2 line of last year with Rucchin as the pivot. I would think that if Renny had the option he would like to go with a # 1 line and a # 2a and a #2b line and a 4th line. So your minutes would break down to around 40% 1st line 25% 2a and 2b and 10% 4th line (give or take a few percentage points here or there). So, in reality you can call the Prucha Immo Hall line the 2nd line and the Cullen Shanny Hossa line the 3rd line, it really does not matter as their ice time would be equal. Then depending on the opponent if one line matches up better they get an extra shift or two.

I personally think a line of Immonen Hall and Prucha could be very productive playing against a 3rd defensive pair. It is not just the "2nd line" or "third line" with a balanced line up (as balanced as can be with Jagr) it should not matter what "line" you are on..........
Hossa? So who do you have sitting out? (looking back for your post......) Ortmeyer????? C'mon man, Orts is our BEST penalty killer, blocks so many shots. All Heart, All Passion. Plus he's not bad during Even Strength: he may not score but he keeps the energy up enough so the other team cant. Hossa is a player who is descent when he's on, but when he's not, he is absolutely useless. Orts has twice the heart of Hossa.

Just cant see Hossa in the lineup. Sorry.

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08-03-2006, 01:09 PM
  #71
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Just cant see Hossa in the lineup. Sorry.
Be it in Beijing or Mexico.

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08-03-2006, 01:11 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by BigCanada77 View Post
Hossa? So who do you have sitting out? (looking back for your post......) Ortmeyer????? C'mon man, Orts is our BEST penalty killer, blocks so many shots. All Heart, All Passion. Plus he's not bad during Even Strength: he may not score but he keeps the energy up enough so the other team cant. Hossa is a player who is descent when he's on, but when he's not, he is absolutely useless. Orts has twice the heart of Hossa.

Just cant see Hossa in the lineup. Sorry.
and like I said in my original post, heart and passion can only take you so far. Example: Rudy, if sports was based on heart and passion he would have been the best of all time.......

at some point you need skill to go along with that. Hossa is going to surprise most of the people on this board this year with a (min) 25 goal season. JOrts in a career year would be lucky to get 10. Hossa is younger, bigger, faster, stronger and has hands. I can say that he turned the corner at the end of the year last year, but the only way he is going to get any respect from any one here is to come out and prove it over the course of an 82 game schedule. I think he is going to do that this year.

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08-03-2006, 01:23 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by nyr__1994 View Post
and like I said in my original post, heart and passion can only take you so far. Example: Rudy, if sports was based on heart and passion he would have been the best of all time.......

at some point you need skill to go along with that. Hossa is going to surprise most of the people on this board this year with a (min) 25 goal season. JOrts in a career year would be lucky to get 10. Hossa is younger, bigger, faster, stronger and has hands. I can say that he turned the corner at the end of the year last year, but the only way he is going to get any respect from any one here is to come out and prove it over the course of an 82 game schedule. I think he is going to do that this year.
Yea, of course Hossa is gonna score more than Orts, their two different types of player. We dont have Orts to score. We have him to kill penalities and put the pressure on/energy up during even strength - and he does a supurb job at it. We have Hossa to be an Offensive threat and score goals using his european style of play - and he does a dismal job at it.

You cant have nothing but scoring machines play forward. You need role players. Orts is wonderful in his role. Hossa sucks in his role. No way do you play Hossa over Orts.

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08-03-2006, 01:25 PM
  #74
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You cant have nothing but scoring machines play forward.
Then there certainly is a need for Hossa!

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08-03-2006, 01:25 PM
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Yea, of course Hossa is gonna score more than Orts, their two different types of player. We dont have Orts to score. We have him to kill penalities and put the pressure on/energy up during even strength - and he does a supurb job at it. We have Hossa to be an Offensive threat and score goals using his european style of play - and he does a dismal job at it.

You cant have nothing but scoring machines play forward. You need role players. Orts is wonderful in his role. Hossa sucks in his role. No way do you play Hossa over Orts.

Isn't that what Hollweg is for?

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