HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Phoenix LXXIII: "This Space Available"

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-20-2013, 12:06 AM
  #126
MNNumbers
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,218
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nwpensfan View Post
You are right we do not know enough but your scenario is just a guess and it only considers ETZ ownerships reasons for pushing for realignment now. What about WTZ owners concerns? My guess is they would prefer Phoenix to stay in the west for travel reasons. What about NHLPA concerns?

I admit that once realignment was approved I became much more optimistic that Seattle had a 'chance' for the Yotes to relocate here. Call it whatever you want (rose colored glasses) but I had no real strong hope before realignment process.

Your scenario seems to have a little of a slant towards the east but that is just my 'rose colored' view.
Pens,
Thanks for the reply. I am going to try to be a little clearer here. I think that in the big picture alignment itself has little to do with what happens to Coyotes. In other words, I don't think the league would sell to Seattle BECAUSE it makes alignment easier. I think other, higher $$ factors, will actually sway the decision.

My post is more about "how do we read between the lines, and use the alignment as a way to guess what will happen." And, my answer to that is:

1) Let's assume it's PHX>>SEA, and all the owners know it. Then, this alignment makes sense.

or

2) Let's assume it's PHX>>QUE, and all the the owners know it. Maybe the ETZ owners, knowing that QUE is going to be an ETZ team (again, not BECAUSE of realignment, but rather the way everyone responds to it) are trying to get theirs while they can. This also makes sense. It would be a reasonable response to push for realignment NOW in this case. If I were a Western owner, it would make no difference to me now or later (again, assuming I know PHX>>QUE).

or

3) Let's assume no one knows anything. Then, I think the reason for doing the alignment now is that Winnipeg shouldn't be in the SE, and the schedule maker wants to get going. And, since PHX might just be in PHX again (we don't know anything, remember), we'll do it now. This also makes sense.

So, conclusion: I can't use the realignment process as any clue to the Coyotes' situation. It's interesting, but it is inconclusive in and of itself.

MNNumbers is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 12:09 AM
  #127
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Morocco
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,189
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by halligan10 View Post
Killion I was born and raised in Quebec... You sure know the neighborhood in Tampa
Yes, Im aware of that, just messin with ya... and yes, Tampa, Quebec City.... Miami... Anchorage... San Diego... Halifax... Texas... Tennessee... North & South Carolina...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mork View Post
Phoenix has been a dead loss financially, and as CF and so many others have ably pointed out the franchise value in situ seems to be less than zero.
Well, no, you see, thats the beauty of Garys diabolical plan. The price in situ just keeps going up & up as loses mount, raising average franchise values as a result. So. If the average NHL franchise is valued at (Forbes) $200M, if he hangs tight for another season or two, the asking price should be up around $250M or so by 2015. As they bought & have been operating the franchise on a LOC, apparently not even concerned enough to have withdrawn the $20M still sitting in escrow since June 2012 and to which they are fully entitled, then how bad can it be? Whats your rush? Just let the meter run. They'll get their money in 2015, when QC, Seattle come on-line, maybe someone buys the team locally in the interim, got it covered, and meanwhile, despite zero expenditures on advertising, promotions, media relations etc, attendance is up.... God I love this Country. Merica and Canada.

Killion is online now  
Old
03-20-2013, 12:21 AM
  #128
nwpensfan
Moderator
 
nwpensfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The 14th Tee
Country: United States
Posts: 2,570
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Pens,
Thanks for the reply. I am going to try to be a little clearer here. I think that in the big picture alignment itself has little to do with what happens to Coyotes. In other words, I don't think the league would sell to Seattle BECAUSE it makes alignment easier. I think other, higher $$ factors, will actually sway the decision.

My post is more about "how do we read between the lines, and use the alignment as a way to guess what will happen." And, my answer to that is:

1) Let's assume it's PHX>>SEA, and all the owners know it. Then, this alignment makes sense.

or

2) Let's assume it's PHX>>QUE, and all the the owners know it. Maybe the ETZ owners, knowing that QUE is going to be an ETZ team (again, not BECAUSE of realignment, but rather the way everyone responds to it) are trying to get theirs while they can. This also makes sense. It would be a reasonable response to push for realignment NOW in this case. If I were a Western owner, it would make no difference to me now or later (again, assuming I know PHX>>QUE).

or

3) Let's assume no one knows anything. Then, I think the reason for doing the alignment now is that Winnipeg shouldn't be in the SE, and the schedule maker wants to get going. And, since PHX might just be in PHX again (we don't know anything, remember), we'll do it now. This also makes sense.

So, conclusion: I can't use the realignment process as any clue to the Coyotes' situation. It's interesting, but it is inconclusive in and of itself.
I cannot argue with your conclusion because we really don't know and your reasons make sense.

I do know that the realignment process increased my belief that the possibility for Seattle was greater now than before. I have trouble understanding how QC followers can view it as a positive for them. My honest opinion.

Thank you for clarification.

nwpensfan is online now  
Old
03-20-2013, 12:23 AM
  #129
AllByDesign
Thomas who?
 
AllByDesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Location, Location!
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,299
vCash: 500
If we are looking at landing places for the Coyotes, why not Las Vegas? Harrah's still has the land and zoning for a brand new arena. The team could temporarily stay at MGM Grand Garden arena.

There are a few plausible spots. None of which provide the perfect solution. There are hurdles with every potential location. There are numerous solutions to every hurdle. It's a crap shoot from where I sit

AllByDesign is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 12:23 AM
  #130
MNNumbers
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,218
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nwpensfan View Post
I cannot argue with your conclusion because we really don't know and your reasons make sense.

I do know that the realignment process increased my belief that the possibility for Seattle was greater now than before. I have trouble understanding how QC followers can view it as a positive for them. My honest opinion.

Thank you for clarification.
I would agree that QC would not necessarily look at the alignment and be positively encouraged. There is no question that if you are looking for 'signs', the most obvious 'sign' here would point N, rather than NE.

MNNumbers is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 12:34 AM
  #131
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Morocco
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,189
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllByDesign View Post
It's a crap shoot from where I sit
Yes, I can see how it would be.... dont forget to shake.

Killion is online now  
Old
03-20-2013, 12:49 AM
  #132
Puckschmuck*
Doan Shall Be Boo'ed
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,937
vCash: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllByDesign View Post
If we are looking at landing places for the Coyotes, why not Las Vegas? Harrah's still has the land and zoning for a brand new arena. The team could temporarily stay at MGM Grand Garden arena.
I think you forgot the for this statement, at least I hope it's sarcasm. Because if you legitimately think Las Vegas will be any better than Phoenix as an NHL market, well............um..................

Puckschmuck* is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 01:49 AM
  #133
WildGopher
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 223
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mork View Post
I liked the Phoenix Globetrotters idea best. Not that it would ever work, but it's funny and imaginative!
In keeping with this theme of out-of-the-box ideas, I'd like to propose my own:

Phoenix 2.

Stay with me here.

You'd bookend expansion to 32 teams with Toronto 2 and Phoenix 2. The new Phoenix franchise gives the Coyotes a $50 million territorial fee, that vital new source of revenue the Coyotes have been looking for. Where does the new team get that kind of money, you ask? Duh! They sell the parking rights to their new arena to their host city - there's even a study that proves this works! And someone's got to manage that new arena, right? I'm told there's a lot of money in that racket, at least if you're in the right city.

The new Phoenix team might do well to spend a bit of that surplus to buy Joyce Clark a home in whatever city they land in - Scottsdale, Mesa, Apache Junction - and then bankroll her run for city council or mayor. I'm told there's pretty some good money in that racket, too.

The league says it has "multiple" "interested buyers" in this concept. They're not naming names yet, to give these "investors" maximum freedom to pursue their options. But they expect a tentative deal will be announced by summer, and if not by then, absolutely no later than early fall.

Move more teams north? Heck no. Double-down on your Sun Belt strategy, Gary. If Toronto can support two teams, the Valley can!

Phoenix 2. You heard it here first.


Last edited by WildGopher: 03-20-2013 at 01:56 AM.
WildGopher is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 02:43 AM
  #134
knorthern knight
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: GTA
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,851
vCash: 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Ya, decided lack of urgency. From what I can understand, Beacon Sports has in fact been retained to craft an RFP (Request For Proposals) pursuant to the Lease for the building, one with the franchise, the other without, and that that wont be completed until sometime in April. Then, youve got about 45 days to deal with whomever, negotiate & deal. Then, lets say you come to an agreement, whomever, X, Y or Z Buyer, well, they then have to sort the purchase price out with the NHL which should be going on on a parallel track to tendering an offer pursuant to the RFP, however, in the dysfunction swirling around this unholy mess I wouldnt bet on any of them actually, y'know, multi-tasking?
I believe that the NHL has several more years available of one-year-at-a-time unilateral arena lease extensions. A previous COG council signed off on it, and the new one could not revoke it, short of bankruptcy. There is no AMF attached to the to the lease extensions, but if the NHL is desparate enough for a location to park the Coyotes...

knorthern knight is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 02:54 AM
  #135
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Morocco
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,189
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by knorthern knight View Post
There is no AMF attached to the to the lease extensions, but if the NHL is desparate enough for a location to park the Coyotes...
Yes. The infamous 10 Year Renewable Annually at the NHL's Discretion AMULA.... MuMuMuHaHaHaHaaa

Killion is online now  
Old
03-20-2013, 06:18 AM
  #136
QcBlizzard
Regis-tered fan
 
QcBlizzard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Saguenay, Qc
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,793
vCash: 500
I can't beleve my eyes

http://kings.nhl.com/club/news.htm?i...id=DL|LAK|home

This is OK with Gary?


Last edited by QcBlizzard: 03-20-2013 at 06:41 AM.
QcBlizzard is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 06:35 AM
  #137
Confucius
Registered User
 
Confucius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,552
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Yes. The infamous 10 Year Renewable Annually at the NHL's Discretion AMULA.... MuMuMuHaHaHaHaaa
I'm sure Glendale would be more than pleased to have the Yotes with no egg management fee. Even on a year to year lease. 25 million a year savings much better than the last city council.

Confucius is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 07:09 AM
  #138
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 32,607
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by QcBlizzard View Post
I can't beleve my eyes

http://kings.nhl.com/club/news.htm?i...id=DL|LAK|home

This is OK with Gary?
It's essentially a fan blog hosted by the Kings. The content isn't produced or vetted by their staff, and really it's not much different than their snarky Twitter posts aimed at the Canucks and Stars.

I have to say, though, it was a low blow and in extremely poor taste, especially given the Kings' own struggle for relevance in their own city. Not to mention that, if the Yotes move, Phoenix would become Kings broadcast territory. Probably not a time for burning bridges with their fanbase.

tarheelhockey is online now  
Old
03-20-2013, 07:14 AM
  #139
GuelphStormer
Registered User
 
GuelphStormer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Guelph, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,802
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by knorthern knight View Post
... but if the NHL is desparate enough for a location to park the Coyotes...
i hear ya, but i doubt anyone wants to "park" the team anywhere. the status quo is costing the league tens of millions of dollars a year. which ironically might make phoenix the most expensive parking lot in the history of the world ... dare I say that parking lot could reach $100M?

the league has to be desperately looking for a solution, not prolongment.

GuelphStormer is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 07:18 AM
  #140
QcBlizzard
Regis-tered fan
 
QcBlizzard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Saguenay, Qc
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,793
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
It's essentially a fan blog hosted by the Kings. The content isn't produced or vetted by their staff, and really it's not much different than their snarky Twitter posts aimed at the Canucks and Stars.

I have to say, though, it was a low blow and in extremely poor taste, especially given the Kings' own struggle for relevance in their own city. Not to mention that, if the Yotes move, Phoenix would become Kings broadcast territory. Probably not a time for burning bridges with their fanbase.
Yes, I know, but despite, it still on a NHL official web site. Well, not sure this will stay online very long. They seems to don't have much sense of humour in the league's office.

I agree, this sort of posting on LA's site is a cheap shot.

Cheers.


Last edited by QcBlizzard: 03-20-2013 at 07:24 AM.
QcBlizzard is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 07:26 AM
  #141
GF
Registered User
 
GF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 413
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by QcBlizzard View Post
I can't beleve my eyes

http://kings.nhl.com/club/news.htm?i...id=DL|LAK|home

This is OK with Gary?
I'm quite sure that Gary is having a blast and really enjoying the nice renderings of Coyotes jerseys.

Well, for one, I believe by now the NHL knows what they will do with the Coyotes. Second, this joke has been going on for so long, people are getting tired of this *****. Not only in QC or Winnipeg or Seattle, but everywhere around the league people see the Coyotes as a sad story and it needs to end at some point.

Gary can be pissed or not, this joke is on him.

GF is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 07:48 AM
  #142
GuelphStormer
Registered User
 
GuelphStormer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Guelph, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,802
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GF View Post
I'm quite sure that Gary is having a blast and really enjoying the nice renderings of Coyotes jerseys.

Well, for one, I believe by now the NHL knows what they will do with the Coyotes. Second, this joke has been going on for so long, people are getting tired of this *****. Not only in QC or Winnipeg or Seattle, but everywhere around the league people see the Coyotes as a sad story and it needs to end at some point.

Gary can be pissed or not, this joke is on him.
i do too. i would be absolutely shocked if relocation plans have not gone into effect in both the offices at HQ as well as those in the new relocation site. just sitting on the button, waiting for the official word to push it.

GuelphStormer is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 10:16 AM
  #143
AllByDesign
Thomas who?
 
AllByDesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Location, Location!
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckschmuck View Post
I think you forgot the for this statement, at least I hope it's sarcasm. Because if you legitimately think Las Vegas will be any better than Phoenix as an NHL market, well............um..................
If you note from my post, it never mentioned any comparison or statement stating Las Vegas would better than Phoenix. In fact I have been clearly on record and shunned by stating that Phoenix can be a legitimate hockey city.

My post stated that Vegas could be a plausible relocation point. As much so as KC, Houston, or Seattle. Since there isn't any public statement of relocation from the NHL, it is all guesswork. However, my feeling is that the end game is decided upon and under wraps.

AllByDesign is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 10:48 AM
  #144
silvercanuck
Registered User
 
silvercanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,123
vCash: 500
I don't think the new conference alignment should be brushed off. The ETZ owners seem pretty firm about having their own conference and there obviously isn't enough room for a new team in their club. You can not have conferences of 17 and 13 teams and it seems pretty clear that Detroit and Columbus are not moving back west.

The alignment logistics are going to factor into the owners decision making process when they decide what to do with the Coyotes. It will not simply be one person or one factor that decides where this team ends up. All the owners and their interests will be involved.

What's really telling to me is the fact that the Coyotes have not landed in Quebec by now. If Quebec is the only logical landing spot for this club why hasn't the NHL sold the team to eastern interests already? There is nothing holding the NHL to PHX right now. They could pack the team up and move them into the Colisee tomorrow and turn that franchise into an instant money machine. But they're not. There has to be a reason for that.

silvercanuck is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 11:00 AM
  #145
GuelphStormer
Registered User
 
GuelphStormer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Guelph, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,802
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercanuck View Post
What's really telling to me is the fact that the Coyotes have not landed in Quebec by now. If Quebec is the only logical landing spot for this club why hasn't the NHL sold the team to eastern interests already? There is nothing holding the NHL to PHX right now. They could pack the team up and move them into the Colisee tomorrow and turn that franchise into an instant money machine. But they're not. There has to be a reason for that.
you would actually expect the league to move the team right in the middle of the season?

GuelphStormer is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 11:05 AM
  #146
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 32,607
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercanuck View Post
I don't think the new conference alignment should be brushed off. The ETZ owners seem pretty firm about having their own conference and there obviously isn't enough room for a new team in their club. You can not have conferences of 17 and 13 teams and it seems pretty clear that Detroit and Columbus are not moving back west.
The original format of the 2013 realignment was to have 4 conferences. At some point during the past year, that plan changed to a 4-division/2-conference setup. To be completely honest, I must not have been paying attention because I missed the rationale for going back to 2 conferences -- but that doesn't stop the NHL from going back to a 4 conference concept in a couple of years. If they do that, they could avoid the East/West alignment issue altogether.

tarheelhockey is online now  
Old
03-20-2013, 11:35 AM
  #147
barneyg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,235
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercanuck View Post
What's really telling to me is the fact that the Coyotes have not landed in Quebec by now. If Quebec is the only logical landing spot for this club why hasn't the NHL sold the team to eastern interests already? There is nothing holding the NHL to PHX right now. They could pack the team up and move them into the Colisee tomorrow and turn that franchise into an instant money machine. But they're not. There has to be a reason for that.
Maybe they don't want to piss off Coyotes STHs by moving a team right in the middle of the season? If you think the NHL is bush league now, think about how it would be perceived if they chose to move a team mid-season.

barneyg is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 11:47 AM
  #148
silvercanuck
Registered User
 
silvercanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,123
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
you would actually expect the league to move the team right in the middle of the season?
Quote:
Originally Posted by barneyg View Post
Maybe they don't want to piss off Coyotes STHs by moving a team right in the middle of the season? If you think the NHL is bush league now, think about how it would be perceived if they chose to move a team mid-season.
Where is this mid-season move fallacy coming from? They announced the new arena in March of 2012. They had the entire summer to work on a deal with a new arena in place. They could easily have moved the team to Quebec for this season and put this issue to bed.

silvercanuck is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 11:50 AM
  #149
QcBlizzard
Regis-tered fan
 
QcBlizzard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Saguenay, Qc
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,793
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercanuck View Post
Where is this mid-season move fallacy coming from? They announced the new arena in March of 2012. They had the entire summer to work on a deal with a new arena in place. They could easily have moved the team to Quebec for this season and put this issue to bed.
Because Glendale surprised everybody and shoveled in another 25M, allowing team to stay in a "better" TV market one more year. Trying to guess.

QcBlizzard is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 11:58 AM
  #150
GuelphStormer
Registered User
 
GuelphStormer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Guelph, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,802
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercanuck View Post
Where is this mid-season move fallacy coming from? They announced the new arena in March of 2012. They had the entire summer to work on a deal with a new arena in place. They could easily have moved the team to Quebec for this season and put this issue to bed.
i think the "fallacy" is coming from your own words ... "There is nothing holding the NHL to PHX right now. They could pack the team up and move them into the Colisee tomorrow ..."

sounds an awful lot like mid-season to me.

had you intended to say, 'prior to this season beginning' or 'after the 2011-12 season had ended', that would have been different.

oh, and edit to add: who is to say that the team hasn't already been sold? and that relocation plans are already actively underway?


Last edited by GuelphStormer: 03-20-2013 at 12:01 PM. Reason: afterthot
GuelphStormer is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:01 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.