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Todd Mclellan needs go

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Old
03-20-2013, 11:59 AM
  #226
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Originally Posted by Mister Wedge View Post
Because management, coaches, saw that he brought something to the table. I thought Colin White was terrible too, but he was still a 6/7 d-man
Perhaps management and the coaches look too much at past performances and their body of work. Murray was getting noticed around the league for his play in the 2010 playoffs. Maybe TMac thinks that Murray is the same D-man from 2 or 3 years ago. Maybe he thought Colin White was the same guy who was on the blueline for those Cup winning New Jersey teams.

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03-20-2013, 12:00 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by OrrNumber4 View Post
I understand where you are coming from.

But what you say applies when SJ has no better options. SJ has options now. With Irwin's emergency, Murray shouldn't even be the #7 on this team...and that is a testament to SJ's depth.

I will say that to Demers's fault, he has not "seized" a roster spot the way Braun and Irwin have. He's played decently, but ever since '11 he's never really played so well that the team HAS to play him. Right now, he should get a spot because Murray is playing poorly.

Honestly, if Irwin keeps up this pace, Id be fine with:

Boyle-Irwin
Vlasic-Burns
Stuart-Braun

I would have no issue with Demers sitting, because he's done nothing to justify the others being moved/sitting.
Seeing as how we need Burns to fill out our Top 6, we should be playing Demers.

Our 7 Defensivemen are more talented than our bottom 6, so we need to find a way for him to get in the lineup.

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03-20-2013, 01:06 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Gene Parmesan View Post
He is servicable but Demers is a better all around Dman at this point and brings more mobility and much better play with the puck. Murray is good on the PK and hes better than the previous #6 dmen we've had in the past but he brings zero offense and zero in the way of puck movement in which Demers can help with those issues.
I completely agree. But playing Demers won't make this team THAT much better. There are too many other issues that the Sharks need to address that are more significant.

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03-20-2013, 01:08 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Litework View Post
Perhaps management and the coaches look too much at past performances and their body of work. Murray was getting noticed around the league for his play in the 2010 playoffs. Maybe TMac thinks that Murray is the same D-man from 2 or 3 years ago. Maybe he thought Colin White was the same guy who was on the blueline for those Cup winning New Jersey teams.
This is very possible. If this is the case, that is definitely T-Mac's problem. Unfortunately, all we can do is guess.

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03-20-2013, 01:18 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Mister Wedge View Post
I completely agree. But playing Demers won't make this team THAT much better. There are too many other issues that the Sharks need to address that are more significant.
Transitions and break outs are two of the biggest issues that Demers can help with. He also can play on the pp and generate offense. We need to score goals not prevent them.

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03-20-2013, 01:26 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Gene Parmesan View Post
Transitions and break outs are two of the biggest issues that Demers can help with. He also can play on the pp and generate offense. We need to score goals not prevent them.
While I agree with you, It's not a completely ridiculous idea to think that Todd would rather have a PKing, shot blocking more physical D than a good skating, puck moving, shot taking D.

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03-20-2013, 01:31 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Mister Wedge View Post
While I agree with you, It's not a completely ridiculous idea to think that Todd would rather have a PKing, shot blocking more physical D than a good skating, puck moving, shot taking D.
Aside from crease clearing in a way Demers is more physical, he is a good skater and uses it to make a good amount of hits. Murray on the other hand has gotten so slow he can only counter hit or crease clear. I honestly don't think Murray is doing much out there, we are just looking for positives.

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03-20-2013, 01:31 PM
  #233
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one thing to take into account with this team and coaching/gm.

the sharks on home ice are 8-1-4, the sharks away from home are 4-9-2.

what is so different about home ice and being the away team?

for the sharks, when mclellan gets the chance he goes power vs power so top line vs top line. we all know the top 2 lines can score and play good defense.

but when the sharks are away, mclellan doesn't get that same luxury of going power vs power, the other teams basically set it up power vs weakness, so top line vs 4th line. we all know the 3rd and 4th lines blow offensively, and only at best average defensively.

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03-20-2013, 01:51 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by OrrNumber4 View Post
I understand where you are coming from.

But what you say applies when SJ has no better options. SJ has options now. With Irwin's emergency, Murray shouldn't even be the #7 on this team...and that is a testament to SJ's depth.

I will say that to Demers's fault, he has not "seized" a roster spot the way Braun and Irwin have. He's played decently, but ever since '11 he's never really played so well that the team HAS to play him. Right now, he should get a spot because Murray is playing poorly.

Honestly, if Irwin keeps up this pace, Id be fine with:

Boyle-Irwin
Vlasic-Burns
Stuart-Braun

I would have no issue with Demers sitting, because he's done nothing to justify the others being moved/sitting.
With Irwin`s emergency????? anyway Demers has been much better than Braun if I was them Murray and Braun would be trade bait......IMO

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03-20-2013, 01:58 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
one thing to take into account with this team and coaching/gm.

the sharks on home ice are 8-1-4, the sharks away from home are 4-9-2.

what is so different about home ice and being the away team?

for the sharks, when mclellan gets the chance he goes power vs power so top line vs top line. we all know the top 2 lines can score and play good defense.

but when the sharks are away, mclellan doesn't get that same luxury of going power vs power, the other teams basically set it up power vs weakness, so top line vs 4th line. we all know the 3rd and 4th lines blow offensively, and only at best average defensively.
This is a good point.

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03-20-2013, 02:02 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Mister Wedge View Post
While I agree with you, It's not a completely ridiculous idea to think that Todd would rather have a PKing, shot blocking more physical D than a good skating, puck moving, shot taking D.
Demers is physical and aggressive like Murray but his skating enables him to be more effective at it. Murray is a better crease clearer and shot blocker but his loss of what little speed he had prevents him from catching guys in the neutral zone anymore and if he misses..he can't catch up.

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03-20-2013, 02:10 PM
  #237
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i am on the opposite spectrum for all the firing stuff, i believe wilson needs to go long before mclellan.

mclellan in my opinion can be a good coach, he just needs the right team for his system (ala detroit of 2008/09).

mclellan already has a great top 6, there is not many teams in this league that has the top end talent that the sharks have. marleau, thornton, couture, and pavs. with 2 more decent (as they are right now) wingers for the top 6 in havlat and clowe.

its the bottom 6 that is a complete disaster right now and has been for the past 2 seasons, and that falls directly on wilsons hands.

wilson has done nothing to go out and create a bottom 6 that resembles anything of a line. he has gone out and got certain pieces of lines burish (grinding type line), gomez (scoring type line), handzus (checking type line). but not all of the pieces, wilson needs to decide and decide soon if he wants 3 scoring lines, or if he wants a checking line and a grinding line.

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03-20-2013, 02:14 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
i am on the opposite spectrum for all the firing stuff, i believe wilson needs to go long before mclellan.

mclellan in my opinion can be a good coach, he just needs the right team for his system (ala detroit of 2008/09).

mclellan already has a great top 6, there is not many teams in this league that has the top end talent that the sharks have. marleau, thornton, couture, and pavs. with 2 more decent (as they are right now) wingers for the top 6 in havlat and clowe.

its the bottom 6 that is a complete disaster right now and has been for the past 2 seasons, and that falls directly on wilsons hands.

wilson has done nothing to go out and create a bottom 6 that resembles anything of a line. he has gone out and got certain pieces of lines burish (grinding type line), gomez (scoring type line), handzus (checking type line). but not all of the pieces, wilson needs to decide and decide soon if he wants 3 scoring lines, or if he wants a checking line and a grinding line.
McLellan pretty much blew that theory out of the water though when he publicly stated that he was actively telling the team to play a slow, grinding game. They don't need to, especially with the slowest guys on the roster not needing to be in the line up anyway (Clowe, Murray, Handzus < Gomez, Demers, Sheppard),

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03-20-2013, 02:34 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
McLellan pretty much blew that theory out of the water though when he publicly stated that he was actively telling the team to play a slow, grinding game. They don't need to, especially with the slowest guys on the roster not needing to be in the line up anyway (Clowe, Murray, Handzus < Gomez, Demers, Sheppard),
Yep - if there was anything that was needed to be said to convince people that Tmac and his system were to blame for this teams failures, it was those comments after that game.

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03-20-2013, 02:40 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
i am on the opposite spectrum for all the firing stuff, i believe wilson needs to go long before mclellan.

mclellan in my opinion can be a good coach, he just needs the right team for his system (ala detroit of 2008/09).

mclellan already has a great top 6, there is not many teams in this league that has the top end talent that the sharks have. marleau, thornton, couture, and pavs. with 2 more decent (as they are right now) wingers for the top 6 in havlat and clowe.

its the bottom 6 that is a complete disaster right now and has been for the past 2 seasons, and that falls directly on wilsons hands.

wilson has done nothing to go out and create a bottom 6 that resembles anything of a line. he has gone out and got certain pieces of lines burish (grinding type line), gomez (scoring type line), handzus (checking type line). but not all of the pieces, wilson needs to decide and decide soon if he wants 3 scoring lines, or if he wants a checking line and a grinding line.
I would make the case that the good coaches design systems for their personnel. You can't just have one method of coaching and be stubborn about it. You need to recognize how your team would be most successful and put them into a system that does just that.

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03-20-2013, 03:09 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by murdock1116 View Post
I would make the case that the good coaches design systems for their personnel. You can't just have one method of coaching and be stubborn about it. You need to recognize how your team would be most successful and put them into a system that does just that.
IMO, you have hit the nail on the head with TM.

In the past, he was intransigent about what worked on PK. Insisting for a whole season that it was getting better when it wasn't. Sticking to a system that was clearly not working. IMO, part of the issue this season is sticking to a system that is not functional for too long. I understand that coaches need to sell to their players and that admitting fault is not a good selling point. However, there is a point when the choice is admitting fault or going into the hole at the bottom of the porcelain bowl.

They haven't fixed their breakout strategy and are not truly addressing it. They are choosing the fallback of defensive hockey and being a defensive team. They don't even have the personnel to pull it off (eg a #1dman like Chara or Pronger, etc. and a Vezina caliber goalie). That isn't even talking about the forwards who have never been demons on takeaways as a group. The defensive hockey mantra is not unique to the Sharks, it is mantra chanted by many teams in the bottom half of the league and only a couple of teams in the top half who are truly prepared to play that defensive game. If you look at the league leaders (Chicago, Anaheim, Boston, Montreal and Pitt), they are offensive juggernauts outside of Boston. And Boston and Montreal both feature goalies that are clearly better than Nemo.

I long for the day when they cut the fluff and catering to fan and player egos. The powers that be in hockey would be better served by delivering honest assessments, especially for themselves.

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03-20-2013, 03:25 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by SHARPENCAP View Post
Seems like after that Stick to the head T Mac hasnt been the same
Anyone disagree or agree with me?

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03-20-2013, 03:29 PM
  #243
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Anyone disagree or agree with me?
No, I wanted him fired long before that.

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03-20-2013, 03:54 PM
  #244
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Lukowich was a solid partner for Boyle (that D group overall is arguably the best we've ever had), so I disagree that he had negative value. More to the point, his value was certainly not low enough to justify that god-awful return.
Strongly disagree on Lukowich being a "solid partner". After he was pulled off of Boyle's pairing and traded to Vancouver, he played 18 more NHL games at which point his career was over. (13 Vancouver, 5 Dallas). He did play 163 more games at the AHL level, which was right for his skill level.

A $2M salary on a one-way contract for an aging, declining AHL-caliber player is a negative value contract.

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03-20-2013, 04:07 PM
  #245
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Strongly disagree on Lukowich being a "solid partner". After he was pulled off of Boyle's pairing and traded to Vancouver, he played 18 more NHL games at which point his career was over. (13 Vancouver, 5 Dallas). He did play 163 more games at the AHL level, which was right for his skill level.

A $2M salary on a one-way contract for an aging, declining AHL-caliber player is a negative value contract.
From my recollection, he was struggling because he suffered a concussion. He was a negative value player that probably should've been kept and put on ltir instead of giving Ehrhoff away

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03-20-2013, 05:07 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Litework View Post
Perhaps management and the coaches look too much at past performances and their body of work. Murray was getting noticed around the league for his play in the 2010 playoffs. Maybe TMac thinks that Murray is the same D-man from 2 or 3 years ago. Maybe he thought Colin White was the same guy who was on the blueline for those Cup winning New Jersey teams.
Yup. Poor job by our pro scouts not seeing that these older guys had declined. A good org in NJ saw that Colin White was cooked and bought him out, yet our guys jumped at the first chance to get him.

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03-20-2013, 05:37 PM
  #247
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Yup. Poor job by our pro scouts not seeing that these older guys had declined. A good org in NJ saw that Colin White was cooked and bought him out, yet our guys jumped at the first chance to get him.
Yep, our org has never been smart enough to get other teams take garbage off of our hands

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03-20-2013, 05:47 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Aside from crease clearing in a way Demers is more physical, he is a good skater and uses it to make a good amount of hits. Murray on the other hand has gotten so slow he can only counter hit or crease clear. I honestly don't think Murray is doing much out there, we are just looking for positives.
Lol. Every time I see Murray making a big hit I cringe because I know he will not be able to get back into position and cost us.

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03-24-2013, 01:35 AM
  #249
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While I'd generally want Demers out there over Murray, the thought of Braun, Irwin, or Demers on a Critcal PK is scary. Murray has his spot until the young dmen learn to PK.

When Boyle or Stuart take a penalty, do you really want the 2nd Pk unit to be Braun/Demers?

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03-24-2013, 01:37 AM
  #250
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While I'd generally want Demers out there over Murray, the thought of Braun, Irwin, or Demers on a Critcal PK is scary. Murray has his spot until the young dmen learn to PK.
Demers has a tendency to make a bone-head play, and Irwin is too raw, but what is wrong with Braun?

I really haven't seen Murray as this PK savant.

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