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Old
03-20-2013, 12:19 PM
  #376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
I choose not to operate on future theoreticals. If they succeed without any moves being made, are you going to credit Howson?
Funny. I was going to reply to this by asking if it's really Howson you'd like to see get the credit, but then you answered it yourself.

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Doesn't mean that I'm going to pass on the chance to get my digs in whenever possible...I dealt with enough crap from the last few years that I think I've earned that.

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03-20-2013, 12:36 PM
  #377
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I don't think either of the GM's deserve much credit for the Jackets' current play. We have no idea about the circumstances leading to their uptick in competitiveness besides Bobrovsky being hot. It could be that Jarmo said something to the team that kicked them into gear. In that case, he should get the credit and not Howson. Could be he hasn't had much interaction at all. Perhaps if Howson were still around the team would be doing terribly or perhaps they would be doing the same. Maybe the presence of a new GM (like a new coach) boosts a team's play temporarily and we wouldn't have been competitive without moving Howson.

Who knows? Until we do, we can't credit either GM. Just the players (Bobrovsky especially), the coaches, and perhaps Davidson. Sure Howson helped put the players, coaches, and Davidson here. But, Sergei Bobrovsky in January isn't the same as Sergei Bobrovsky in March. It isn't like with Sather who stockpiled a bunch of players that are now underachieving. Howson stockpiled a bunch of... uh... average players who were bad when he was here but are now overachieving.

That's to say a GM hasn't done a good job and the team hasn't established a solid identity until we are a bubble team because our players are underachieving.


Last edited by Crede777: 03-20-2013 at 12:43 PM.
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Old
03-20-2013, 12:49 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by MattTheMask View Post
So we string together a few victories, and now suddenly Howson is a genius? Get real. Thats ludicrous. A few games over the past 6 years does not change the reality of the situation. Especially when those games occurred after the left.

Bob is showing just part of the reason why Howson is canned. He put his career on the line for Mason. And if Howson was here, would he force Mason in the net again?? Who knows.
Hey, tell it like it is.

this "few victories" string is the longest such in franchise history, by a couple games now. That's the point streak, and doesn't acknowledge the competitive losses that came before the point streak, the consecutive 1-goal games. And many of those were played with Mason in goal, including two against the Blackhawks. Not to take anything at all away from Bobrovsky who should get re-signed IMO, but the ole canard that this streak is based on Bobs' headstanding isn't telling the whole story.

You diminish your position when you transparently undersell what's happening in an effort to avoid saying anything good about Howson.

This streak didn't come out of nowhere. The Jackets were a tough team to play against before it began. They're a young team whose veterans are new in many cases, and which didn't get a training camp. I've said for awhile the majority of the winning this team does will come in the second half, once they get to know each other. So this isn't a random lark, and who else to credit but Howson, in a front office role? (Obviously Richards, too)

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Old
03-20-2013, 12:56 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by davidbklyn View Post
Hey, tell it like it is.

this "few victories" string is the longest such in franchise history, by a couple games now. That's the point streak, and doesn't acknowledge the competitive losses that came before the point streak, the consecutive 1-goal games. And many of those were played with Mason in goal, including two against the Blackhawks. Not to take anything at all away from Bobrovsky who should get re-signed IMO, but the ole canard that this streak is based on Bobs' headstanding isn't telling the whole story.

You diminish your position when you transparently undersell what's happening in an effort to avoid saying anything good about Howson.

This streak didn't come out of nowhere. The Jackets were a tough team to play against before it began. They're a young team whose veterans are new in many cases, and which didn't get a training camp. I've said for awhile the majority of the winning this team does will come in the second half, once they get to know each other. So this isn't a random lark, and who else to credit but Howson, in a front office role? (Obviously Richards, too)
Well said. Scott built the team, doesn't erase all the mistake he made over the prior 4 seasons, but it is his team in some sense.

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03-20-2013, 12:56 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post

You know me...I've done the research. And I can't find a single case in the NFL, NHL, or MLB of firing a GM (not a coach-GM) and there being this "jolt in the room" as a result.
Well now maybe you have, one regulation loss under Jarmo!


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Old
03-20-2013, 01:01 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
But, Sergei Bobrovsky in January isn't the same as Sergei Bobrovsky in March.
True, But Sergei Bobrovsky in March is the same as Sergei Bobrovsky in December, November, and October.

Sergei Bobrovsky, St. Petersburg SKA
18-3-2
4 SO
1.94 GAA
.932 SV%

Perhaps it just took a little time for him to adjust back to the North American game.

1/3rd of this roster was changed in the offseason. Maybe the guys needed more than a 1 week training camp to fit in, feel at home, and figure out Todd Richards system.

Maybe new leaders needed time to step up.

There could be a million reasons why the team is playing differently than it was the first month of the season. It doesn't change who assembled it.

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03-20-2013, 01:23 PM
  #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skraut
There could be a million reasons why the team is playing differently than it was the first month of the season. It doesn't change who assembled it.
True but as I said before Howson's knack was for finding guys who weren't expected or supposed to play that well but ultimately did (for a while). Guys like Letestu and Nikitin. So I'm saying I don't think he necessarily set us up for success. Instead he set us up for mediocrity but we are finding success somehow.

It's like the Phoenix Coyotes last season. Look at their roster. Their GM didn't set them up for success by acquiring guys like Smith and the ex-Jackets (aside from Whitney), but they managed to find it due to Tippett's coaching and some luck.

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03-20-2013, 01:47 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
... Doesn't mean that I'm going to pass on the chance to get my digs in whenever possible...I dealt with enough crap from the last few years that I think I've earned that.
It appears that "whenever possible" means every day and in every thread. I liked Howson, but I also liked Doug and Hitch. They all contributed to the good and (mostly) bad of CBJ history. All three are gone, as will be, one day, their successors. What possible use can there be in you popping up in every thread, all over the board, to defend the former GM whenever his name is mentioned? Are you really only able to enjoy the recent run of success if it can be attributed to Howson, alone? If, one day, Howson is recognized as having played a part in building a CBJ Cup winner, we can all become teary-eyed and nostalgic over our chosen libations. I'll even buy your first round!

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03-20-2013, 02:01 PM
  #384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
I don't think either of the GM's deserve much credit for the Jackets' current play. We have no idea about the circumstances leading to their uptick in competitiveness besides Bobrovsky being hot. It could be that Jarmo said something to the team that kicked them into gear. In that case, he should get the credit and not Howson. Could be he hasn't had much interaction at all. Perhaps if Howson were still around the team would be doing terribly or perhaps they would be doing the same. Maybe the presence of a new GM (like a new coach) boosts a team's play temporarily and we wouldn't have been competitive without moving Howson.

Who knows? Until we do, we can't credit either GM. Just the players (Bobrovsky especially), the coaches, and perhaps Davidson. Sure Howson helped put the players, coaches, and Davidson here. But, Sergei Bobrovsky in January isn't the same as Sergei Bobrovsky in March. It isn't like with Sather who stockpiled a bunch of players that are now underachieving. Howson stockpiled a bunch of... uh... average players who were bad when he was here but are now overachieving.

That's to say a GM hasn't done a good job and the team hasn't established a solid identity until we are a bubble team because our players are underachieving.
So we can't credit either GM because we don't know what caused the uptick? "Maybe Jarmo said something?"

I think I'll stick with simplicity here and say you credit the GM who brought in the players, coach, Davidson, etc..., and assume that Jarmo hasn't yet made his impact. There is a legit question whether the composition of this team is good or not (i.e. how far over our heads are we playing?), and that weighs on Howson's legacy. But I look at our roster and the proliferation of quality character players: Dubinsky, Calvert, Foligno etc.. and I think our success has quite a lot to do with that.

I'm not arguing his firing, but for years folks have been, dare I say abusive, to Howson for the Jackets' troubles, which makes me reflexively want to support him when the team succeeds. But I made my mind up on Howson a long time ago, after I judged his drafting and trading favorably. A winning team would be just icing on the cake.

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03-20-2013, 02:04 PM
  #385
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I was gonna respond to this .....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Doesn't mean that I'm going to pass on the chance to get my digs in whenever possible...I dealt with enough crap from the last few years that I think I've earned that.
But pete had a great and perhaps, perfect response .......

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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
It appears that "whenever possible" means every day and in every thread. I liked Howson, but I also liked Doug and Hitch. They all contributed to the good and (mostly) bad of CBJ history. All three are gone, as will be, one day, their successors. What possible use can there be in you popping up in every thread, all over the board, to defend the former GM whenever his name is mentioned? Are you really only able to enjoy the recent run of success if it can be attributed to Howson, alone? If, one day, Howson is recognized as having played a part in building a CBJ Cup winner, we can all become teary-eyed and nostalgic over our chosen libations. I'll even buy your first round!
Thank you pete. Well said. I don't believe re-hashing all of this is conducive to productive discussion on the boards. And "whenever possible" does appear to be as you said 'every day and in every thread'. Only other thing I will say is, I have dealt with my share of crap too. Probably just as much. But Im over it. We all support the team, and the team felt they were better off without Howson. Lets move on and leave this in the past.

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03-20-2013, 02:14 PM
  #386
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Pete, you eloquently said what is necessary to silence a blowhard.

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03-20-2013, 02:21 PM
  #387
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I don't really want to wallow around in it too much from entrenched positions. But trying to determine Howson's role in this team is absolutely conducive to productive discussion on the board (whatever productive discussion on the board is ). I mean, it's just the kind of thing to discuss. Mayor Bee is clearly choosing a provocative way to do it, that's on him. But what, Howson is the guy whose name we dare not speak? Because he was fired?

It's his team doing all this winning

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03-20-2013, 02:31 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by EDM View Post
Pete, you eloquently said what is necessary to silence a blowhard.
I don't think that will suffice. If you really want to shut him up, admit that he is right.

Of all the things we deign to spend time discussing on HFBoards, somehow supporting Howson's competence is considered taboo, meriting lines like "Why can't you just enjoy the team's success...move on..." Its almost as if years of disparaging Howson have created cognitive dissonance in the minds of Jackets fans who like the winning team he assembled. Reminding them that Howson may have something to do with it creates quite the reaction.

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03-20-2013, 02:34 PM
  #389
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Can Nashville have it's style of play back? Like now?

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03-20-2013, 02:35 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by davidbklyn View Post
... Howson is the guy whose name we dare not speak? Because he was fired?
Has anyone said his name should not be mentioned?

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It's his team doing all this winning
Ah, there's the rub! How should the credit for all this winning be allocated? At he moment, I think there's plenty to go around. Some feel strongly that this streak is vindication for Scottie. Others appear to feel that his exit kicked off the recent spurt of adequacy.

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03-20-2013, 02:40 PM
  #391
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Can Nashville have it's style of play back? Like now?
Nope

we kind of like it.

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03-20-2013, 02:42 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by major major View Post
I don't think that will suffice. If you really want to shut him up, admit that he is right.
Ha! That might slow Bee down, but nobody wants to shut him up. At least, I don't.

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Of all the things we deign to spend time discussing on HFBoards, somehow supporting Howson's competence is considered taboo, meriting lines like "Why can't you just enjoy the team's success...move on..." Its almost as if years of disparaging Howson have created cognitive dissonance in the minds of Jackets fans who like the winning team he assembled. Reminding them that Howson may have something to do with it creates quite the reaction.
Again, like others, you seem to have read my post as an attempt to stifle discussion of Howson's role. All I asked is for Bee to pick his spots and not leap into combat at every mention of the guy's name! It becomes tiresome and loses any impact it might otherwise carry.

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03-20-2013, 02:48 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
Has anyone said his name should not be mentioned?



Ah, there's the rub! How should the credit for all this winning be allocated? At he moment, I think there's plenty to go around. Some feel strongly that this streak is vindication for Scottie. Others appear to feel that his exit kicked off the recent spurt of adequacy.
Can we all agree that at least SOME of the credit is due to Howson?

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03-20-2013, 02:51 PM
  #394
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Can we all agree that at least SOME of the credit is due to Howson?
Don't know about all, but I can.

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03-20-2013, 02:51 PM
  #395
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
Ah, there's the rub! How should the credit for all this winning be allocated? At he moment, I think there's plenty to go around. Some feel strongly that this streak is vindication for Scottie. Others appear to feel that his exit kicked off the recent spurt of adequacy.
XGMSH deserves some. Todd Richards and the coaching staff deserve some. Vinny Prospal, Jack Johnson and all those that have assumed leadership roles deserve some. The entire team deserves some for buying in and putting it out there. The fans for hanging in deserve some. JD deserves some for breathing fresh air into the organization. John P. McConnell deserves some for hiring JD.

Did I miss anybody?

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03-20-2013, 02:56 PM
  #396
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XGMSH deserves some. Todd Richards and the coaching staff deserve some. Vinny Prospal, Jack Johnson and all those that have assumed leadership roles deserve some. The entire team deserves some for buying in and putting it out there. The fans for hanging in deserve some. JD deserves some for breathing fresh air into the organization. John P. McConnell deserves some for hiring JD.

Did I miss anybody?
Um, Me?

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03-20-2013, 03:04 PM
  #397
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Um, Me?
Done.

One portion of credit allocated to Pete.

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03-20-2013, 03:10 PM
  #398
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Done.

One portion of credit allocated to Pete.
That takes care of it all, then, Roadman.

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03-20-2013, 03:47 PM
  #399
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I'd hold out for 2 quatloos Pete.

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03-20-2013, 03:51 PM
  #400
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I'd hold out for 2 quatloos Pete.
Fresh out of quatloos

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