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Sergei Fedorov vs. Pavel Datsyuk

View Poll Results: Who's better?
Pavel Datsyuk 10 15.38%
Sergei Fedorov 55 84.62%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-20-2013, 10:52 AM
  #26
Sentinel
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Datsyuk has better work ethic, he rarely coasts, has better hands, stickhandling, and performs better with crappy linemates. But Fedorov was an absolute monster in playoffs, was more naturally talented, had better overall skills and speed. Dats never quite reached the same peak as Feds in 94-96. So Feds it is.

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03-20-2013, 10:57 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
In no universe (that doesn't significantly weight Cup-counting) should Henri Richard rank above Sergei Fedorov. None.
Fully agree and Clarke and Esposito are rated too high IMO.

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I rank Fedorov over Forsberg, though not by much. And I have Crosby a step behind that; he needs to do a bit more to move up and is certainly well on his way to doing that.
Here it gets tricky depending on how one counts pro international success.



Quote:
I have that exact group of eight players, plus Bathgate, ahead of Selanne.
Bathgate is kind of high here isn't he? I mean he has 7 top 10 in goals scoring but 3,4,5,6,6,8,9 in a 06 league isn't really as good as 1,1,1,2,3,10 post 90's is it?

Bathgate was basically done in his early 30's but for expansion and his playoff record is hardly Richard like either.

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03-20-2013, 11:02 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Datsyuk has better work ethic, he rarely coasts, has better hands, stickhandling, and performs better with crappy linemates. But Fedorov was an absolute monster in playoffs, was more naturally talented, had better overall skills and speed. Dats never quite reached the same peak as Feds in 94-96. So Feds it is.
I'm leaning this way as well, but let's wait and see how Dats ages.

If the rumours are true and next season he is going to the KHL he will ahve no chance on these boards though.

He is having another tremendous start to his age 34 season.

He has a couple of other season starts in the last 2 years like this that were dampened by injury which hurts him.

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03-20-2013, 11:12 AM
  #29
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Fedorov.

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03-20-2013, 11:42 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Fully agree and Clarke and Esposito are rated too high IMO.



.
So, Fedorov is better than Espo? Just wondering what are you saying here?

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03-20-2013, 12:23 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Bathgate is kind of high here isn't he? I mean he has 7 top 10 in goals scoring but 3,4,5,6,6,8,9 in a 06 league isn't really as good as 1,1,1,2,3,10 post 90's is it?

Bathgate was basically done in his early 30's but for expansion and his playoff record is hardly Richard like either.
Bathgate was a playmaker first, so looking at goals is going to underrate him. Also, why would you ever look at goals before points in any situation?

Bathgate's Points Finishes: 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5

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Old
03-20-2013, 12:27 PM
  #32
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Bernie Geoffrion is another guy that deserves to be in this conversation about RW's...not quite sure where, but he's part of this tier

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03-20-2013, 01:47 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I voted Fedorov. But also it got me thinking...

The recent Fedorov vs. Selanne thread is favoring Fedorov as a better player by a bit. Mainly due to the peak performance. Prime vs. Prime Selanne vs. Fedorov is close and maybe even Selanne being the more favorable choise.

Against Datsyuk, Fedorov wins by a landslide.

Datsuyk against Bure and Datsuyk wins.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...665&highlight=

I am not sure, but i would think that Selanne vs. Bure would be a close one, maybe Bure even winning that.

It just seems that Fedorov is a tad overrated. Maybe even more than a tad.
I agree, I've watched both players their whole careers and I thought this would be close.

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03-20-2013, 03:42 PM
  #34
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Datsyuk doesn't quite have a year like 1993-'94 for Fedorov. He was close though in 2009. Both players won the Selke. Fedorov was 2nd in points behind Gretzky. Datsyuk was 4th in points behind Malkin, Ovechkin and Crosby. Fedorov won the Hart while Datsyuk finished 3rd in Hart voting. Close, but Feds has the edge. Plus you throw in the playoff pedigree which Fedorov clearly dominates over.

So at his best I go with Fedorov. However, year in and year out it is harder to say. Fedorov had a nice year in 1994 and 1996 and then there is a remarkable drop for the rest of his career. Datsyuk doesn't have a dip like that and unlike Fedorov you wouldn't call him an underacheiver in the regular season

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03-20-2013, 04:03 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Datsyuk doesn't quite have a year like 1993-'94 for Fedorov. He was close though in 2009. Both players won the Selke. Fedorov was 2nd in points behind Gretzky. Datsyuk was 4th in points behind Malkin, Ovechkin and Crosby. Fedorov won the Hart while Datsyuk finished 3rd in Hart voting. Close, but Feds has the edge. Plus you throw in the playoff pedigree which Fedorov clearly dominates over.

So at his best I go with Fedorov. However, year in and year out it is harder to say. Fedorov had a nice year in 1994 and 1996 and then there is a remarkable drop for the rest of his career. Datsyuk doesn't have a dip like that and unlike Fedorov you wouldn't call him an underacheiver in the regular season
Pretty much sums my thoughts. Peak goes for Fedorov, slightly but clearly. Prime is harder to tell.

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03-20-2013, 04:14 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Fred Taylor View Post
I agree, I've watched both players their whole careers and I thought this would be close.
Fedorov had a better shot, was a better skater, was (IMO) a better defensive player (despite the number of Selkes), had a much higher peak, and was far better in the playoffs overall. And when it came to clutch play, there's no comparison.

Datsyuk is a wicked stickhandler and playmaker, but Fedorov was top-five in the league as a puckhandler and was an excellent playmaker in his own right. Fedorov was far closer to Datsyuk in what Datsyuk has the advantage in than the reverse.

As far as physical play, I'd say it's about even. Both players are power forwards similar to the Forsberg mold, in that they dominate physically as well as with finesse, but are not frequent hitters - at the same time not shying away from initiating contact. I wouldn't throw either into a "best power forward" debate, but I wouldn't classify them as pure finesse players. An example would be that while Fedorov's former WJC linemates Bure and Mogilny tended to try and deke through defenders or end-around as much as possible, the bigger and stronger Fedorov might simply hold his stick with one hand and push his way through with the opposite shoulder. It's one of the reasons people look at Fedorov and think he is so amazing; they see other skilled players who didn't play the defensive game he did - Forsberg, Jagr, Lindros, even Kovalev at times - who used the same kind of power tactics in addition to their skill to create a high level of offense.
Datsyuk doesn't quite play that same power game as far as offense, but he is more physical in other ways.
It's really too bad that the Wings jerked Fedorov around in the negotiations in 2003; I would have liked to have seen the two play together through Datsyuk's prime, with Fedorov serving as the "Professor" for Datsyuk, rather than Ovechkin. One also wonders; having Fedorov instead of Draper, how much better are the Wings then and now? There's no Hatcher signing - which didn't improve the team because he a) sucked when healthy, and b) barely played due to injury. There's no Lang trade because Fedorov is still around, so Fleischmann is still with the organization, and the Wings still have the Green pick. The big question is where the extra $4.2m comes from; the Wings probably buy out Schneider in addition to Hatcher, and give Kronwall a serious shot on the blue line to start that season instead of waiting until the next year to put him in the lineup full-time.

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03-20-2013, 05:06 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Fedorov had a better shot, was a better skater, was (IMO) a better defensive player (despite the number of Selkes), had a much higher peak, and was far better in the playoffs overall. And when it came to clutch play, there's no comparison.
It's not quite as B&W. Datsyuk scored some monstrous clutch goals, such as the one against SJ in the losing effort. As for defense... let's just agree to disagree. Datsyuk is a better defensive player than Feds was, albeit not by much. Dats is also a better stickhandler.

Quote:
Datsyuk doesn't quite play that same power game as far as offense, but he is more physical in other ways.
Again, it's not as clear cut. Datsyuk lead the team in hits on numerous occasions. Unlike Fedorov.

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03-20-2013, 05:12 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Bernie Geoffrion is another guy that deserves to be in this conversation about RW's...not quite sure where, but he's part of this tier
He's my #12. After him, I have Clapper (difficult to rank positionally because he was multi-positional) and then we get into guys like Recchi, Gartner, Cournoyer, and Mogilny. Not too far behind that are Alfredsson and Iginla, both still with the potential to move up to just inside the top-15, but running out of time.

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03-20-2013, 05:38 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
It's not quite as B&W. Datsyuk scored some monstrous clutch goals, such as the one against SJ in the losing effort. As for defense... let's just agree to disagree. Datsyuk is a better defensive player than Feds was, albeit not by much.
I think Dats is an excellent defensive player... but what separates them for me is that Fedorov was like a combination of Zetterberg and Datsyuk when it came to defense. He could play Datsyuk's preventative defensive game at an absolutely elite level, but he could also shift gears and become a man-on-man shadow like Zetterberg. And with his speed, he was able to make some defensive plays that few in the league could perform; such as being able to easily chase down a player on a breakaway. With the danger of using Youtube, here's an example:



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Dats is also a better stickhandler.
I didn't claim he wasn't.

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Again, it's not as clear cut. Datsyuk lead the team in hits on numerous occasions. Unlike Fedorov.
When was this exactly? Also... nhl.com doesn't have hit stats for 2003-04... but based on hit stats from other years, it's entirely possible Fedorov DID lead the Ducks in hits. In 02-03, Ozolinsh and Vishnevski tied for the team lead with 61 hits; in 05-06, Fedorov had 43 in 67, which projects to just under 60 in a full season like the one Fedorov played in 03-04. He had a similar pace the next two years and then hit a little bit less in 08-09, after he had suffered through a couple years of constant injuries. Ozolinsh only played 36 games in 03-04, Vishnevski missed 9. But the more likely bet for the Ducks' hit leader in 03-04 is a rookie Chris Kunitz.

It still doesn't make Datsyuk lead the Wings in hits, and he wasn't that close in any recorded year I can see.

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03-20-2013, 07:18 PM
  #40
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Small but clear edge to Fedorov. Peak advantage to Fedorov. I do think that Datsyuk has been the better regular season player, but playoffs is easily Fedorov. Defensively, Fedorov has a very clear edge for me. Datsyuk is overrated defensively, and I agree with the above assessment that Fedorov combined most of the best defensive qualities of Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

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03-20-2013, 09:22 PM
  #41
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I saw this clip a hundred times and it made me laugh every time. Feds caught up with the Shadow of Gretzky and hooked him (albeit momentarily). What a great friggin' achievement! He had much better ones than this.

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03-20-2013, 09:32 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I saw this clip a hundred times and it made me laugh every time. Feds caught up with the Shadow of Gretzky and hooked him (albeit momentarily). What a great friggin' achievement! He had much better ones than this.
Who called it a great achievement? I said it was a defensive play most players wouldn't be able to make. That's a fact; most players aren't fast enough to make that play.

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03-20-2013, 11:47 PM
  #43
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Sergei Fedorov top ten goal finishes 3rd, top ten assist finishes 9th, top ten point finishes 2nd, 9th.

Pavel Datsyuk top ten goal finishes 0, top ten assist finishes 2nd, 5th, 8th, 9th, top ten point finishes 4th, 4th.

Other than Fedorov's one 56 goal season he's been barely the better goalscorer than Datsyuk while Datsyuk has been clearly the better playmaker. Fedorov was the better playoff performer but Datsyuk has been amazing in a few of his playoff runs as well. I still find these two so close I can't decide who's better.

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03-21-2013, 12:27 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Fred Taylor View Post
Sergei Fedorov top ten goal finishes 3rd, top ten assist finishes 9th, top ten point finishes 2nd, 9th.

Pavel Datsyuk top ten goal finishes 0, top ten assist finishes 2nd, 5th, 8th, 9th, top ten point finishes 4th, 4th.

Other than Fedorov's one 56 goal season he's been barely the better goalscorer than Datsyuk while Datsyuk has been clearly the better playmaker. Fedorov was the better playoff performer but Datsyuk has been amazing in a few of his playoff runs as well. I still find these two so close I can't decide who's better.
If you are using assist finishes to gauge that, you should note the fact that Datsyuk's best years were with Zetterberg and then Hossa. Zetterberg was a 40+ goal, 90+ point winger who IMO was better than Datsyuk in 2007-08. Fedorov had... 73-point Slava Kozlov. Best season against best season, Fedorov's best winger scored twenty points less than Datsyuk's best winger. While Fedorov outscored Datsyuk by 20+ points. If we take each player's #2 season, they both have a winger who is just over 70 points (Kozlov and Hossa). Both took home the Selke. But Fedorov ended up with ten more points than Datsyuk. 3rd-best? Fedorov in 1995 was 4th in Selke voting and on pace for 93 points if he had played the 36 locked-out games. Datsyuk's #3 season is one of the following: 87 points and 20th in Selke voting, 70 points in 80 games plus the Selke, or 59 points in 56 games plus 3rd in Selke voting. The offense is not close in any of the seasons with significant Selke support.

For those who are getting their "low scoring era" argument ready, here's simple facts.

Fedorov in the top ten in PPG: 4th (Win Selke), 7th (Win Selke), 9th (4th Selke)

Datsyuk in the top ten in PPG: 5th (Win Selke), 8th (Win Selke)

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03-22-2013, 09:23 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
He's my #12. After him, I have Clapper (difficult to rank positionally because he was multi-positional) and then we get into guys like Recchi, Gartner, Cournoyer, and Mogilny. Not too far behind that are Alfredsson and Iginla, both still with the potential to move up to just inside the top-15, but running out of time.
What a strange thing to say. Alfredsson and Iginla are both easily better than Recchi, Gartner, Cournoyer and especially Mogilny.

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03-22-2013, 10:33 PM
  #46
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What a strange thing to say. Alfredsson and Iginla are both easily better than Recchi, Gartner, Cournoyer and especially Mogilny.
Well, I've been going through and reviewing it as I put together what I do have around a year-plus ago. So it's entirely possible that I may change my rankings. Or not.

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03-24-2013, 01:03 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Well, I think both ranks are high. Selanne a bit high and Fedorov a lot high.

I think it is a push to put Fedorov in top-20 centers all-time. Selanne might be able to squeeze in to the top-10 but personally i would not put him there.

Gretzky
Lemieux
Messier
Beliveau
Mikita
Esposito
Clarke

Sakic
Yzerman
Trottier
Dionne
Richard
Forsberg
Crosby

On top of my head should all be "no brainers" ahead of Fedorov. That is not even touching the really old guys.

Howe
Jagr
Richard
LaFleur
Bossy
Makarov

Should all be ahead of Selanne. Maybe he could be in discussion with Kurri/Hull and that would slot him around 10.

Center is a lot deeper position than RW is tough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
So, Fedorov is better than Espo? Just wondering what are you saying here?
Clarke and Espo were 5 and 6 on the original list both seemed rather high.

Truth be told, I'm not exactly sure how I put Fedorov in with those guys yet.

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03-24-2013, 02:56 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Clarke and Espo were 5 and 6 on the original list both seemed rather high.

Truth be told, I'm not exactly sure how I put Fedorov in with those guys yet.
I really don't see a good argument for Fedorov over Esposito or Clarke. Maybe there is but i just can't see it.

Esposito is no-brainer due to his offensive production. Altough some might say that Orr helped him greatly. But i still hold the difference as too big.

Clarke was offensively better than Fedorov and won a selke too. He was also a 4x all-star. Can't see how Fedorov would rank higher. Maybe Clarke just is overrated and i don't know it.

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03-24-2013, 09:53 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Clarke and Espo were 5 and 6 on the original list both seemed rather high.

Truth be told, I'm not exactly sure how I put Fedorov in with those guys yet.
Come on guys, this Fedorov stuff is going too far. There is no possible angle you can put Fedorov above Espo, that's plain silly. Espo was probably the best center in the league during his era, Fedorov was not even the best center on his team. I can't even believe it's a debate with you.

Epso has 5 ****ing Art Rosses, 2 Harts and 2 Lindsays, 6 time 1st team and 2 2nd team selections. Lead the league in point 5 times, came in 2nd 3 times, and finished top 10 11 times. Lead the league in goals 6 times, with 10 top 10 finishes. Has a .56 goals per game over a 20 year career. And that is the tip of his accomplishments.

BUT YOU don't know and think it's debatable. This is why alot of us are getting sick of the Fedorov talk. He was a good player but he reaches in the top 100 (maybe) he does not belong with the greats like Espo.

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03-24-2013, 10:02 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I really don't see a good argument for Fedorov over Esposito or Clarke. Maybe there is but i just can't see it.

Esposito is no-brainer due to his offensive production. Altough some might say that Orr helped him greatly. But i still hold the difference as too big.

Clarke was offensively better than Fedorov and won a selke too. He was also a 4x all-star. Can't see how Fedorov would rank higher. Maybe Clarke just is overrated and i don't know it.

Maybe but he did alot on his own too. You can look at Espo's 1967/68 year. Orr has 31 points total while Espo ripped up the league with 84 points in a 74 game season. Espo's 49 assists was tops in the league. In the next year, Orr's has 64 points total while Espo lead the league with 77 assists and in points with 126.

So,, there is proof Espo could do it on his own. It's 1969/70 season where Orr becomes superman and starts to tear up the league. Does Orr help Espo, yup but Espo also helps Orr.

Used to be a bumper sticker in Boston at the time: Jesus Saves But Espo Scores on the Rebound.

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