HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Will we ever see a better player than Gretzky? Will we know it?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-19-2013, 10:01 PM
  #701
Tripod
Registered User
 
Tripod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 6,305
vCash: 500
Hell....a 40 year old Selanne finished 8th in scoring with 80 points in 73 games. He was on a PPG pace for 90 points. A prime Gretzky would still shred this league!!

Tripod is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 07:57 AM
  #702
JFA87-66-99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,312
vCash: 500
I think we will see a player better than Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr eventually. Maybe in the next 20 years or so with the way these kids train and practice nowadays. After seeing Crosby dominate so far this season with 50 pts in 31 games I think we could see this player crack 200 points in a season.

I think this player will have to be a child prodigy much like Gretzky was. Always playing and dominating against players 2-3 years older than him as he plays PeeWee,Bantam,Midget, etc. This player will be on the hockey radar from the time he is 6-7, and will be granted exceptional player status as a 15 year old and win the CHL scoring title/MVP in his 15-16-17 years old seasons. Also maybe this player plays in WJC as a 15 year old. I'm thinking this player might be born anywhere from around 2008-2013, so he's coming just a matter of time.

JFA87-66-99 is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 03:12 PM
  #703
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,628
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
To me the Perfect Storm merely means best offensive player playing in best offensive era in most offensive team system. Leading to best offensive numbers ever by a player and team.
But shouldn't you ask yourself WHY the Oilers were the greatest offensive team of all-time? Take away Gretzky and they aren't. The proof is in the pudding here with the Oilers:

1983-84 - 446 goals
1984-85 - 401 goals
1985-86 - 426 goals
1986-87 - 372 goals
1987-88 - 363 goals (Gretzky missed 16 games)
1988-89 - 325 goals

Los Angeles
1987-88 - 318 goals
1988-89 - 376 goals (led the NHL with Gretzky's first season as a King)

I think Gretzky himself was rather responsible for this "perfect storm" here don't you think? Just by the stroke of a pen he was traded and the team he went to compared to the team he left literally swapped numbers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I have hinted at this in other posts but the biggest difference between Wayne and his peers, even larger than pure talent, was his preparation and desire to be the best. Everyone knows the story of Walter telling a 10 year old Wayne about the importance of being the best out there and Wayne literally was in terms of preparation bare none in the 80's and perhaps of all time.

Sid has that same drive and desire but so many more of his peers do as well compared to the 80's were a guy like Kent Nilsson could score well over a PPG without really trying.

One could imagine how well a motivated and driven Kent could have done in the 80"s.
Kent Nilsson is a prime example of a player who could have worked harder. There were lots like him, just like today there are lots like him. How many times have we complained about Mogilny, Semin, Kovalev, Green? Or even players like Malkin or Jagr who we often feel have all the talent in the world but have been known to play rather inconsistent hockey? Ask Leaf fans about Kessel. You seem to think that players mailing it in and not giving it 100% was exclusive only to the 1980s. Hardly. It was the same as today, there were some players with the desire to exceed and win more than others. Gretzky was one of them who never quit. Messier was another. Crosby is definitely one of those players today, as it Toews. But you seem to think players weren't trying in the 1980s.

Big Phil is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 04:31 PM
  #704
tazzy19
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
But shouldn't you ask yourself WHY the Oilers were the greatest offensive team of all-time? Take away Gretzky and they aren't. The proof is in the pudding here with the Oilers:

1983-84 - 446 goals
1984-85 - 401 goals
1985-86 - 426 goals
1986-87 - 372 goals
1987-88 - 363 goals (Gretzky missed 16 games)
1988-89 - 325 goals

Los Angeles
1987-88 - 318 goals
1988-89 - 376 goals (led the NHL with Gretzky's first season as a King)

I think Gretzky himself was rather responsible for this "perfect storm" here don't you think? Just by the stroke of a pen he was traded and the team he went to compared to the team he left literally swapped numbers



Kent Nilsson is a prime example of a player who could have worked harder. There were lots like him, just like today there are lots like him. How many times have we complained about Mogilny, Semin, Kovalev, Green? Or even players like Malkin or Jagr who we often feel have all the talent in the world but have been known to play rather inconsistent hockey? Ask Leaf fans about Kessel. You seem to think that players mailing it in and not giving it 100% was exclusive only to the 1980s. Hardly. It was the same as today, there were some players with the desire to exceed and win more than others. Gretzky was one of them who never quit. Messier was another. Crosby is definitely one of those players today, as it Toews. But you seem to think players weren't trying in the 1980s.
Wow, amazing find (bolded). It's quite remarkable when you think about that for a second.

tazzy19 is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 04:50 PM
  #705
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,628
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
Wow, amazing find (bolded). It's quite remarkable when you think about that for a second.
Well I figure that we give Rod Langway credit for the drop in goals against numbers his first couple seasons in Washington and yet we don't look at the impact Gretzky had on the Kings. I mean, a team that was 18th overall in a 21 team league immediately went to 4th overall and eliminated the Cup champs in 7 games all within one year because of one player.

Big Phil is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 05:27 PM
  #706
OrrNumber4
Registered User
 
OrrNumber4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 6,588
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
The previous sentence in my post is the #1 reason he dominated as much as he did, along with the Oilers we can score 7 to your 5 mentality.



If one only focuses on offensive dominance and doesn't take into account the added responsibility defensively for all players increased over time from the 80's from coaching (or over coaching as it were) then yes we aren't going to see the type of offensive dominance that Wayne had for numerous reasons.



The level and type of dominance, and how it actually related to team success, is debatable however and comparing Dmen to forwards is a risky proposition as their career arcs are usually quite different from forwards.
With Gretzky, he got upwards of 50% of his team's points. When he went to LA, the team's scoring went up 18%.

Take a 270-goal team. Multiply by 1.18. Divide by 2. What do you get? 160 points..and that isn't even prime Gretzky.

OrrNumber4 is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 05:41 PM
  #707
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,453
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
But shouldn't you ask yourself WHY the Oilers were the greatest offensive team of all-time? Take away Gretzky and they aren't. The proof is in the pudding here with the Oilers:

1983-84 - 446 goals
1984-85 - 401 goals
1985-86 - 426 goals
1986-87 - 372 goals
1987-88 - 363 goals (Gretzky missed 16 games)
1988-89 - 325 goals

Los Angeles
1987-88 - 318 goals
1988-89 - 376 goals (led the NHL with Gretzky's first season as a King)

I think Gretzky himself was rather responsible for this "perfect storm" here don't you think? Just by the stroke of a pen he was traded and the team he went to compared to the team he left literally swapped numbers



Kent Nilsson is a prime example of a player who could have worked harder. There were lots like him, just like today there are lots like him. How many times have we complained about Mogilny, Semin, Kovalev, Green? Or even players like Malkin or Jagr who we often feel have all the talent in the world but have been known to play rather inconsistent hockey? Ask Leaf fans about Kessel. You seem to think that players mailing it in and not giving it 100% was exclusive only to the 1980s. Hardly. It was the same as today, there were some players with the desire to exceed and win more than others. Gretzky was one of them who never quit. Messier was another. Crosby is definitely one of those players today, as it Toews. But you seem to think players weren't trying in the 1980s.
I don't think that's a revelation for anyone. The best offensive era had the best offensive team which had the best offensive player ever. Of course Gretzky had much to do with it. I agree.

Dennis Bonvie is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 05:49 PM
  #708
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,453
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
Yes, plus minus is far too dependent on linemates, and many other factors. No one ever talks about Gretzky's ridiculous +28 in only 18 games in the 1985 playoffs - which happens to be the best single season playoff plus/minus ever....but they certainly like to harp on about his post prime plus minus with bad teams. Again, their minds are made up before hand - always looking for ways to justify their belief that Gretzky was "too good to be true".
And the Oilers were +200 as team that year in the playoffs. (That's ridiculous)

Coffey +26, Kurri +24, Huddy +20, Gregg +19.

Not really that ridiculous.

Dennis Bonvie is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 05:53 PM
  #709
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,453
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
That doesn't matter!!!
Gretzky was not playing in a vacuum!
There were plenty of other top star offensive players going all out offense, paying the same amount of attention to defense that Gretzky did that Gretzky absolutely destroyed!

So while the extra attention on defense today explains why 200 points is pretty unlikely it STILL doesn't explain how Gretzky did what he did over who he did it to.

THAT in a nutshell is the gaping hole in your explanations.



About time!
Some of us around here have been waiting for that very answer from you for close to 2 years now
Other than Mario, could you please name plenty of those players?

Dennis Bonvie is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 06:12 PM
  #710
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,671
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Other than Mario, could you please name plenty of those players?
Prolly be easier to go through the top 20 scorers from each year in the 80‘s and name the ones that weren‘t.

Rhiessan71 is online now  
Old
03-20-2013, 06:22 PM
  #711
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 20,043
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
There were plenty of other top star offensive players going all out offense, paying the same amount of attention to defense that Gretzky did...
Not really, because other than Gretzky & Lemieux during that era no one else could control the game the way they did. When your all offence, who cares about defence? Gretzky was better than Lemieux in that department, absolutely, in fact much either under rated or just not appreciated, misunderstood, but beyond those two, guys who did have to work on & include full on 2 way play, and some damn good ones at that so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Other than Mario, could you please name plenty of those players?
sure thing;

Lanny McDonald
Mike Bossy
Michel Goulet
Denis Savard
Barry Pederson
Marcel Dionne
Bryan Trottier
Dale Hawerchuk
Tim Kerr
Doug Gilmour
John Ogrodnik
etc

all putting up some pretty impressive numbers, two way players to varying degrees...


Last edited by Killion: 03-20-2013 at 06:42 PM.
Killion is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 06:25 PM
  #712
SaintPatrick33
Conn Smythe Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,028
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to SaintPatrick33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Not really, because other than Gretzky & Lemieux during that era no one else could control the game the way they did. When your all offence, who cares about defence? Gretzky was better than Lemieux in that department, absolutely, in fact much either under rated or just not appreciated, misunderstood, but beyond those two, guys who did have to work on & include full on 2 way play, and some damn good ones at that so...



sure thing;

Lanny McDonald
Mike Bossy
Michel Goulet
Denis Savard
Barry Pederson
Marcel Dionne
Bryan Trottier
Dale Hawerchuk
Tim Kerr
Doug Gilmour
John O'Grodnik
etc

all putting up some pretty impressive numbers, two way players to varying degrees...
Peter Stastny?

SaintPatrick33 is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 06:40 PM
  #713
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 20,043
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Peter Stastny?
Ya, theres another. These guys all offensive machines putting up huge numbers, be it goals or goals & assists, just high points period, but absolutely, defensively, pretty solid.

Killion is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 07:20 PM
  #714
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,610
vCash: 613
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
I think we will see a player better than Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr eventually. Maybe in the next 20 years or so with the way these kids train and practice nowadays. After seeing Crosby dominate so far this season with 50 pts in 31 games I think we could see this player crack 200 points in a season.

I think this player will have to be a child prodigy much like Gretzky was. Always playing and dominating against players 2-3 years older than him as he plays PeeWee,Bantam,Midget, etc. This player will be on the hockey radar from the time he is 6-7, and will be granted exceptional player status as a 15 year old and win the CHL scoring title/MVP in his 15-16-17 years old seasons. Also maybe this player plays in WJC as a 15 year old. I'm thinking this player might be born anywhere from around 2008-2013, so he's coming just a matter of time.
If Crosby cant score 160, why would anyone do 200? If Crosby even can get to 150 with some at least solid defense he's right up there all-time as far as i'm concerned. That number remains to be seen though of course.

Darth Yoda is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 07:23 PM
  #715
SaintPatrick33
Conn Smythe Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,028
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to SaintPatrick33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
If Crosby cant score 160, why would anyone do 200?
Because Crosby isn't Gretzy maybe?

SaintPatrick33 is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 07:49 PM
  #716
tazzy19
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
And the Oilers were +200 as team that year in the playoffs. (That's ridiculous)

Coffey +26, Kurri +24, Huddy +20, Gregg +19.

Not really that ridiculous.
The only two who happened to be close were his line mates. There's a surprise! They're the same two who were on the ice during pretty much all his his points....what a shocker!

tazzy19 is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 09:06 PM
  #717
OrrNumber4
Registered User
 
OrrNumber4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 6,588
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Ya, theres another. These guys all offensive machines putting up huge numbers, be it goals or goals & assists, just high points period, but absolutely, defensively, pretty solid.
Are you saying that all of those guys were "good" defensively?

I think that while there are some players who are "good" or "great" defensively, there are others that are competent/solid defensively. Crosby is somewhere between that and "good".

OrrNumber4 is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 09:24 PM
  #718
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 20,043
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrrNumber4 View Post
Are you saying that all of those guys were "good" defensively?
Of course not. Some were great, others good, the rest competent, and ya, Id agree with your opinion about Crosby.

Killion is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 09:42 PM
  #719
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,610
vCash: 613
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Because Crosby isn't Gretzy maybe?
What has that to do with anything? The guy i quoted i believe was talking about someone in the future scoring 200. If there aint no serious rule changes before that, that is an absurd number. Gretzky would do 180 today absolute tops, not counting if perhaps the size and training of other players today could put a little wrench on his prowess in todays game. Of course he too would be more well trained, but he was a little on the small side and aforemost all, was mostly brains. Would his lack of physical traits perhaps push him down to 165.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 03-20-2013 at 09:48 PM.
Darth Yoda is offline  
Old
03-20-2013, 09:51 PM
  #720
tazzy19
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
What has that to do with anything? The guy i quoted i believe wwas talking about someone in the future scoring 200. If there aint no serious rules changes before that that is an absurd number. Gretzky would do 180 today absolute tops, not counting if perhaps the size and training of other players today could put a little wrench on his prowess in todays game.
I agree, 180 points in his prime seems to be where he'd top out in today's game. One thing to consider is that Gretzky would have exploited the no two line off sides far better than anyone else has, as he was always looking for ways to get an edge (there are numerous examples of this, which I could list). He would have also feasted off the new rules designed for skilled players such as himself. And lets not forget all that power play time.... If we have players like Thornton and Sedin scoring 80 and 90 assists, I think Gretz would have topped out at 120 or 130 assists with the new rules and power plays. Add 50 goals to that, and there's your 170-180 points.

tazzy19 is offline  
Old
03-21-2013, 04:58 AM
  #721
revolverjgw
Registered User
 
revolverjgw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,993
vCash: 500
There are so many reasons why 180 points, or 170, is just completely unreasonable. That would make him more dominant now than he was then, and that is NOT going to happen.

-he's not going to end up with the modern equivalent of the firewagon Oilers today. That would be like having Kovalchuk on his wing, Karlsson on the blueline, and Malkin as his backup center and PP partner. With the contract he'd earn, pick one, if he's lucky. Crosby has rolled out with serviceable grinders and faded vets his entire career. So forget anything resembling the Gretzky/Kurri connection.

-it's going to be a lot harder to dominate an NHL with so many more elite players. Lapping Peter Stastny is one thing.... lapping prime Ovechkin, last year's Malkin or this year's Crosby is another thing entirely. He'd be a lock for the Art Ross but if you're expecting him to dominate current Crosby even more than he did to Bossy or Stastny, get a reality check.

-less bottom feeder teams an goalies to feast on. Gretzky was not benched when games got out of hand like Crosby usually is. He has always stated that he went for records and didn't hold off. Nowadays, even talent-starved teams have huge goalies and tight defensive systems. You don't see anywhere near as many blowouts anymore.

-with the faster game, he's going to have less ice time, shorter shifts, and with modern defensive systems he would have to cheat less offensively...

...and actually I think this is the most interesting aspect of imagining Gretzky playing today, moreso than his numbers.... I think he'd be a very effective and interesting defensive player. When I watch his old games, he's pretty Datsyukian with his anticipation and stickwork and backchecks more diligently than posters like Dennis Bonvie would have you believe, but he also spent a lot more time cheating offensively than guys like Crosby or Datsyuk do now, and took risks that wouldn't fly nowadays. He's no idiot and I've love to see how he'd adjust. In a modern system with a team that isn't stacked, we'd see him put his defensive skills to better use.

And no, two-line passes and lessened obstruction aren't going to offset these factors to any significant degree. In fact Gretzky was barely obstructed back then anyway, he was curling away from guys and sneaking behind them and spinning away from them. I just watched the Canucks 50th hat-trick game the other day, in the middle of the deadpuck era, and barely anybody even brushed against him the entire game, he was so good at finding room and staying away from that. He wouldn't be Gretzky if he put himself in a position to be obstructed anyway, think about it. Lemieux was different, he went right at everybody and the Pens had way more PPs than the Oilers as a result.


Last edited by revolverjgw: 03-21-2013 at 05:19 AM.
revolverjgw is offline  
Old
03-21-2013, 06:44 AM
  #722
JFA87-66-99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,312
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
If Crosby cant score 160, why would anyone do 200? If Crosby even can get to 150 with some at least solid defense he's right up there all-time as far as i'm concerned. That number remains to be seen though of course.
I think this player will be better than crosby when he comes along

JFA87-66-99 is offline  
Old
03-21-2013, 06:53 AM
  #723
Crease
Registered User
 
Crease's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,426
vCash: 500
A 37 year old Wayne Gretzky on his last legs hit 90 points and finished just 12 points behind a prime Jaromir Jagr. This was during the DPE with enormous goalies, the red line, and zero ice space. I can't imagine what a 22 year old Wayne Gretzky would do today.

Crease is offline  
Old
03-21-2013, 07:21 AM
  #724
daver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Norfolk Island
Posts: 2,644
vCash: 500
Over the last three years, Crosby has been producing at about 30% to 40% higher than the next guys. If he keeps this up, where does that put him?

daver is online now  
Old
03-21-2013, 07:30 AM
  #725
Crease
Registered User
 
Crease's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,426
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by daver View Post
Over the last three years, Crosby has been producing at about 30% to 40% higher than the next guys. If he keeps this up, where does that put him?
No higher than Lindros or Forsberg unless he can do it for full seasons.

Crease is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:47 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.