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Canadian Politics IV

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Old
03-19-2013, 04:59 PM
  #201
Tubby Tuke
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Originally Posted by RonFournier View Post
ONE bomb? ONE RCMP agent? Let me lol.

The Keable Inquiry found the RCMP had its own FLQ cell ("André Ouimet cell" directed by RCMP spy Carole Devault), which claimed responsibility for a firebomb attack at Brink's Company, the kidnapping of André Chamard a FLQ lawyer who refused to help them, the burning of many soveringist bars and gathering places, etc. to maintain the myth that the FLQ was still active, even though all its leaders were long gone because "there were more spies than real members in the group." Trudeau put an end to the Keable Inquiry to start his own censored inquiry.

Then the MacDonald Inquiry found documents that showed Trudeau was at the Cabinet meeting when the federal government expressly autorised the RCMP to break laws to fight separatism. The MacDonald inquiry report was heavily censored, so we'll never know how many more terrorist actions were perpetrated by the federal government.

The federal government didn't find it "appropriate" to sue the hundred RCMP agents involded in its terrorist plots. Seriously, go read a book.
What you just said makes no sense at all. What the hell is wrong with you?

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Old
03-19-2013, 05:35 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by peon View Post
What you just said makes no sense at all. What the hell is wrong with you?
OK so the Keable Inquiry and the MacDonald Inquiry never existed in your dimension, good to know.

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03-19-2013, 09:13 PM
  #203
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How come Canada's prime minister is always from QC?

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03-20-2013, 03:30 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
How come Canada's prime minister is always from QC?
Not always.

But the high % rate had something to do with the Liberal Party's magic sauce for being the dominant governing party, alternating the leadership and keeping fortress Quebec. That will change in the future as the West becomes stronger and the East less dominant (and Quebec has a lesser proportion of the population). The changing demographics (fear of the decline and being over-run by 9 other provinces) was also the magic sauce for the Quebec independence movement. And the federal Liberal Party has slowly been losing the fortress over time.

p.s. the Conservatives tried the Liberal equation with Mulroney and it worked, the NDP is trying it now, their results may vary. Liberals are going back to the well (but Trudeau's strength may lie in Ontario instead).

p.p.s. the other variable in the Liberal sauce was its open inclusive attitude in immigration policy, something the CPC is trying to tap into with its Kenney strategy. (the Trudeau name here might revive Liberal nostalgia with the sons of immigrants, the CPC's Old Empire sideshow strategy might be confusing and deemed exclusive and the Kenney efforts could evaporate to some degree).


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Old
03-20-2013, 06:51 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
How about the Irgun and the King David Hotel bombing in Jerusalem before the creation of Israel carried out under the leader of the Irgun, Menachem Begin who would become the 6th Prime Minister of Israel.

Or American revolutionaries killing not only British soldiers but also other colonists during the American Revolution.

Freedom fighters or terrorists?
By definition, terrorists.

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03-20-2013, 07:12 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by RonFournier View Post
Given the fact that there is no universal definition of terrorism, even in international law, to me the term terrorist is just another international politics instrument to create a legitimacy to intervene in other counrties. The perfect example of this is Mali rebels being labeled as terrorists while Syria rebels are being labeled as a liberation army even though we know Al-Qaida is behind them.

Also on the Paul Rose thing, I find it hypocritical to denounce the FLQ as a terrorist organisation yet no one's talking about the RCMP's involvement in the bombings, as proven in the MacDonald Commission on the RCMP actions in Québec in the 70's. The inquiry was started after Robert Samson, a RCMP agent, blew himself up while posing a bomb at the home of an anglophone businessman to blame it on the FLQ and the whole separatist movement afterwards. So if Paul Rose is a terrorist, why isn't Trudeau a terrorist?
How do we know Al-Qaida is behind the Syrian rebels? Please state some sources. There are huge differences in the Mali and Syrian situations and while there are some slight differences, there is general consensus on what is considered terrorism and what isn't.

The four general components of terrorism include
It is an act of violence.
It has a political or social motives.
It is carried out against people not engaged in combat.
It is intended to frighten a larger audience.


Terrorist
Motivation
Motivation is rooted in secular or religious ideology.
vs
Criminal
Selfish, personal motivations or grievances.

Goal
Goal is for political purposes or to change “the system”.
vs
Goal is for personal satisfaction, such as material gain.

e.g. Both a terrorist and an ordinary criminal may have the same goal of assassinating a president, but the former will have rational, political motives whereas the latter’s motives remain apolitical.

Tactics
Terror tactics (such as hijacking, arson, kidnapping) are planned and premeditated, and are intended for psychological repercussions beyond the act itself.
e.g. The hijacking tactic used by the PLFP in the El Al incident of 1968 was to bring attention to the Palestinian struggle and incite fear of future attacks on innocent civilians.
vs
Violent acts, which can resemble terror tactics, are not intended to have consequences or create psychological repercussions beyond the act itself.

“Terror tactics” may be used, but only to achieve the criminal’s initial goal; they are not meant to send a broader, political message.

Is it cut and dry? No but there is some general agreement as to what is considered terrorism and what is not.

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Old
03-20-2013, 07:42 AM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonFournier View Post
OK so the Keable Inquiry and the MacDonald Inquiry never existed in your dimension, good to know.
The RCMP is bad and the FLQ is good so the RCMP blew up stuff that would hurt the FLQ to help the FLQ to hurt the FLQ to help the FLQ

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03-20-2013, 09:07 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by peon View Post
The RCMP is bad and the FLQ is good so the RCMP blew up stuff that would hurt the FLQ to help the FLQ to hurt the FLQ to help the FLQ
When did any of that story imply good or bad or any attempt to help or hurt the FLQ?

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03-20-2013, 09:22 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Leafsdude7 View Post
When did any of that story imply good or bad or any attempt to help or hurt the FLQ?
What did I imply? I never implied anything.... I stated it

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03-20-2013, 09:36 AM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peon View Post
What did I imply? I never implied anything.... I stated it
I never said you implied anything.

I said "that story" posted by Ron never implied what you stated it implied.

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03-20-2013, 10:57 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
How do we know Al-Qaida is behind the Syrian rebels? Please state some sources. There are huge differences in the Mali and Syrian situations and while there are some slight differences, there is general consensus on what is considered terrorism and what isn't.
In my opinion the line is still too hard to draw without an universal judicial definition for terrorism not to be used as a political instrument. I'm not the only one saying this, Russia has been denouncing the double standard between Mali and Syria for months.

Syria: how jihadist group Jabhat al-Nusra is taking over Syria's revolution - The Telegraph

83 deaths in car bomb attacks near governmental HQ in Damascus

Russia criticizes US over response to Syria car bomb

Syrian car bombs kill dozens

Etc.

And now the UK and France want to arm the rebels without a UN resolution, which is illegal and reminds me of the US arming the Talibans and the Saddam Hussein regime in the 80's. I don't think this is going to end well.


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Old
03-20-2013, 11:11 AM
  #212
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Random note: Today is Brian Mulroney's 74th birthday. I mention that as he retired more than 20 years ago. Hard to believe he was retired by 54 when you consider Jean Chretien was 69 when he left the PMO, Paul Martin was 67, Pierre Trudeau was 64, Lester Pearson was 70, and John Diefenbaker was 68.

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03-20-2013, 01:04 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonFournier View Post
In my opinion the line is still too hard to draw without an universal judicial definition for terrorism not to be used as a political instrument. I'm not the only one saying this, Russia has been denouncing the double standard between Mali and Syria for months.

Syria: how jihadist group Jabhat al-Nusra is taking over Syria's revolution - The Telegraph

83 deaths in car bomb attacks near governmental HQ in Damascus

Russia criticizes US over response to Syria car bomb

Syrian car bombs kill dozens

Etc.

And now the UK and France want to arm the rebels without a UN resolution, which is illegal and reminds me of the US arming the Talibans and the Saddam Hussein regime in the 80's. I don't think this is going to end well.
You are citing news articles as a source? And even then only one of them talks about a specific terrorist group and states that this group seems to be working on its own outside the rebels.

If one goes deeper there seems to be two wards going on, one with the "rebels" that started all of this. They tend to use small arms etc and not suicide bombs. The second group that has started to join in are terror related and are muddling the water.

In Mali on the other hand, it is terror groups, such as Al Shabaab, that have been causing the disturbances since the start.

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Old
03-20-2013, 02:02 PM
  #214
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I wonder if we have seen the last of Jean Charest. I can't help but have a sneaking suspicion that at his age, and even with the way his premiership ended, that we could see him stick his head up federally when Harper retires. He's generally well regarded outside of Quebec where he's noted as a staunch defender of national unity. At the present he wouldn't be strong in Quebec, but he wouldn't be the first politician to be rejected by Quebec voters only to return after some years in the wilderness.

Is there anybody who could potentially challenge him in Quebec during a federal leadership campaign should he choose to run? He could sweep Quebec and a simple solid showing in the rest of Canada could deliver him a win (especially if his main challenger is from the west).

Anybody else think we haven't seen the end of Charest?

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03-20-2013, 02:17 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by thome_26 View Post
I wonder if we have seen the last of Jean Charest. I can't help but have a sneaking suspicion that at his age, and even with the way his premiership ended, that we could see him stick his head up federally when Harper retires. He's generally well regarded outside of Quebec where he's noted as a staunch defender of national unity. At the present he wouldn't be strong in Quebec, but he wouldn't be the first politician to be rejected by Quebec voters only to return after some years in the wilderness.

Is there anybody who could potentially challenge him in Quebec during a federal leadership campaign should he choose to run? He could sweep Quebec and a simple solid showing in the rest of Canada could deliver him a win (especially if his main challenger is from the west).

Anybody else think we haven't seen the end of Charest?
Not that I disagree with your overall assessment on his popularity in Quebec, but the last provincial elections showed Charest's (and the Liberal's machine) ability to hold onto a fairly solid base in the face of widely unpopular policies. I bet if there were an election tomorrow, and he had the same machine behind him, he could take a few dozen seats.

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03-20-2013, 05:29 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Transplanted Caper View Post
Not that I disagree with your overall assessment on his popularity in Quebec, but the last provincial elections showed Charest's (and the Liberal's machine) ability to hold onto a fairly solid base in the face of widely unpopular policies. I bet if there were an election tomorrow, and he had the same machine behind him, he could take a few dozen seats.
The last election mainly showed that the liberal party has already won the anglophone, immigrant and old fart vote before elections even begin.

It's nothing new.

The same does not hold true at the federal level.

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03-20-2013, 05:45 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by thome_26 View Post
I wonder if we have seen the last of Jean Charest. I can't help but have a sneaking suspicion that at his age, and even with the way his premiership ended, that we could see him stick his head up federally when Harper retires. He's generally well regarded outside of Quebec where he's noted as a staunch defender of national unity. At the present he wouldn't be strong in Quebec, but he wouldn't be the first politician to be rejected by Quebec voters only to return after some years in the wilderness.

Is there anybody who could potentially challenge him in Quebec during a federal leadership campaign should he choose to run? He could sweep Quebec and a simple solid showing in the rest of Canada could deliver him a win (especially if his main challenger is from the west).

Anybody else think we haven't seen the end of Charest?
Something to keep in mind is that even though Charest may be a Conservative by federal standards, the people that made up his base provincially are not necessarily federal conservatives. The PLQ's stronghold is the Island of Montreal, a region which also tends to go Liberal in federal elections, while Harper's strategy in the province has focused largely on the Quebec City region.

Still though, you have a point that at only 54 years old Charest has plenty of time to spend a couple of years in the private sector before making a return to politics.

EDIT: Railman summed up some of what I was trying to say. I would not necessarily view Charest's results in the most recent election as a great barometer of his personal appeal.

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03-20-2013, 06:15 PM
  #218
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How come Canada's prime minister is always from QC?
Bilingualism is a requirement, and knowledge of English in Québec is more common than knowledge of French in the rest of Canada.

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03-20-2013, 06:27 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
How do we know Al-Qaida is behind the Syrian rebels? Please state some sources. There are huge differences in the Mali and Syrian situations and while there are some slight differences, there is general consensus on what is considered terrorism and what isn't.

The four general components of terrorism include
It is an act of violence.
It has a political or social motives.
It is carried out against people not engaged in combat.
It is intended to frighten a larger audience.
Normally the definition also includes "carried out by someone not acting in the service of a recognized state in a state of war", otherwise you've also included a lot of military operations targetting civilian areas or factories in the definition of terrorism.

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03-20-2013, 06:44 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
You are citing news articles as a source? And even then only one of them talks about a specific terrorist group and states that this group seems to be working on its own outside the rebels.

If one goes deeper there seems to be two wards going on, one with the "rebels" that started all of this. They tend to use small arms etc and not suicide bombs. The second group that has started to join in are terror related and are muddling the water.

In Mali on the other hand, it is terror groups, such as Al Shabaab, that have been causing the disturbances since the start.
IIRC, the Mali conflict started as a conflict between a group of separatist fighters who want to create a country called Azawad in northern Mali, and the Malian military. After the separatists started to win some territory, there was a split between two factions within the separatist fighters - some wanted Sharia law, others didn't. The former (who call themselves Ansar Dine) turned their guns on the latter, and eventually proclaimed Sharia law in many cities in northern Mali.

When this happened, the Malian military and the secular separatists declared a truce, both seeing the Islamists as the greater threat. This is the side that France intervened on.

In Syria, the secular and pro-Sharia opposition groups are fighting together against Assad.

So the two situations are not entirely alike. However, in my opinion the reason the US is against Assad but supports the Mali government is because Syria is anti-Israel.

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03-21-2013, 06:44 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Meteor View Post
Normally the definition also includes "carried out by someone not acting in the service of a recognized state in a state of war", otherwise you've also included a lot of military operations targetting civilian areas or factories in the definition of terrorism.
Not anymore because of state sponsored terrorism or terrorist states like like Germany under Hitler, Stalin, Iraq under Saddam, etc.

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03-21-2013, 06:57 AM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Meteor View Post
IIRC, the Mali conflict started as a conflict between a group of separatist fighters who want to create a country called Azawad in northern Mali, and the Malian military. After the separatists started to win some territory, there was a split between two factions within the separatist fighters - some wanted Sharia law, others didn't. The former (who call themselves Ansar Dine) turned their guns on the latter, and eventually proclaimed Sharia law in many cities in northern Mali.

When this happened, the Malian military and the secular separatists declared a truce, both seeing the Islamists as the greater threat. This is the side that France intervened on.

In Syria, the secular and pro-Sharia opposition groups are fighting together against Assad.

So the two situations are not entirely alike. However, in my opinion the reason the US is against Assad but supports the Mali government is because Syria is anti-Israel.
Pretty much, the original rebels were the Twareg people who are traditionally a nomadic people but have been trying to create their own homeland in Northern Mali as you mentioned under the name name Azawad. And as you mentioned the problem started when they got help from Ansar Dine who wanted to create an Islamic state under Sharia law. And now enter the Algerian group now known as Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb. They are the same group that took over the refinery in Algeria last month killing a bunch of workers.

So this situation is not cut and try, the original rebels were seen as freedom fighters but the situation in Mali has now turned into a terrorist conflict because of the arrival of terrorist groups.

And as you mentioned there is much more unity in Syria to out the government. Just as the Libyan conflict was not see as a terrorist conflict, etc.

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03-21-2013, 07:04 AM
  #223
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And this is why I hate the Harper government taxes cuts to big business. The argument, made even by some here, being that the cuts will foster job creation and money being spent on R&D but that is not the case at all.

Quote:
Canadian economy to continue struggling as companies hoard cash, RBC chief economist says
Companies need to spend the "dead money" they are sitting on to help the economy grow at a stronger rate.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/busines...623/story.html

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03-21-2013, 09:37 AM
  #224
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Normally the definition also includes "carried out by someone not acting in the service of a recognized state in a state of war"
That's convenient.

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03-21-2013, 07:45 PM
  #225
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Too early to debate the budget? Perhaps, considering we don't know what else will be in the actual Bill. My own personal outrage just centers around the extension of the accelerated depreciation allowance. When people were whining about how the corporate tax cuts were hurting the deficit, the response was that items like the capital cost allowance tax break would be ending soon and that money would be put to increasing general revenues. They lied. The ongoing program is very costly.

I also noticed that Mulcair has changed his vocabulary and Dutch Disease is now Balanced Economy or more specifically, actions against a Balanced Economy...

Liberals had their own job training program putting Trudeau out there there to oppose the budget, getting experience on something he will be doing soon as party leader next time. I didn't think Rae was that sharp today, maybe he's already on pre-retirement mode?

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