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Philly and Ottawa

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Old
03-20-2013, 08:23 PM
  #1
Cujomi
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Philly and Ottawa

They seem like good partners right now. What kind of package would Cowen + Bishop or Wiercioch + Bishop grab us?

Obviously Philly has no problems up front. Ottawa could really use a top 6 winger with top 3 potential.

I'm thinking one of Simmonds or Voracek coming back to Ottawa.

Bishop + Wiercioch + 3rd 2013 or Cowen + Bishop for one of the two.

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03-20-2013, 08:25 PM
  #2
Benny FTW
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Voracek or no interest.

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Old
03-20-2013, 08:28 PM
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I wouldn't move Cowen at this stage, regardless of how good our young depth on defence has looked. I think the only deal that would make any sense at all would be Bishop + for Briere/Read. Sens won't give up the assets required for a guy like Voracek or Simmonds.

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03-20-2013, 08:29 PM
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SolidSnakeUS
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Voracek has 11 more points than your top point getter (Gonchar) and that's it? He has a great cap hit and has proven himself more than all of them combined.

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03-20-2013, 08:33 PM
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1st package is awful.

2nd is better, but still wouldn't do it.

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03-20-2013, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Voracek or no interest.
Phone goes click.

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03-20-2013, 08:37 PM
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achdumeingute
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
I'm thinking one of Simmonds or Voracek coming back to Ottawa.
Don't get your hopes up.

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Old
03-20-2013, 08:39 PM
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I don't think Wiercioch+3rd is equal in value to Cowen

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03-20-2013, 08:40 PM
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Getting Voracek will take a whole heck of a lot more than Bishop and Wercioch

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Old
03-20-2013, 08:40 PM
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Cujomi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
1st package is awful.

2nd is better, but still wouldn't do it.
What's awful about it? It's not far off in value from the second package and Wiercioch is more in in the mould of a guy that Philly could really benefit from. Cowen has offensive potential, but not nearly at the level of a Wiercioch (who is just scratching the surface now). I'm not trying to give these players away, they're good and still have a ton of upside...I'm just thinking in terms of our needs vs. Philly's needs.

Simmonds/Voracek for Bishop + Cowen + 3rd 2013 is the highest I'd be willing to go. It's good value both ways IMO and Ottawa has more than enough defensive depth to lose Cowen and Bishop.

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03-20-2013, 08:41 PM
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orangecrush8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
What's awful about it? It's not far off in value from the second package and Wiercioch is more in in the mould of a guy that Philly could really benefit from. Cowen has offensive potential, but not nearly at the level of a Wiercioch (who is just scratching the surface now). I'm not trying to give these players away, they're good and still have a ton of upside...I'm just thinking in terms of our needs vs. Philly's needs.

Simmonds/Voracek for Bishop + Cowen + 3rd 2013 is the highest I'd be willing to go. It's good value both ways IMO and Ottawa has more than enough defensive depth to lose Cowen and Bishop.
Its really not at all

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Old
03-20-2013, 08:42 PM
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SolidSnakeUS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
What's awful about it? It's not far off in value from the second package and Wiercioch is more in in the mould of a guy that Philly could really benefit from. Cowen has offensive potential, but not nearly at the level of a Wiercioch (who is just scratching the surface now). I'm not trying to give these players away, they're good and still have a ton of upside...I'm just thinking in terms of our needs vs. Philly's needs.

Simmonds/Voracek for Bishop + Cowen + 3rd 2013 is the highest I'd be willing to go. It's good value both ways IMO and Ottawa has more than enough defensive depth to lose Cowen and Bishop.
Bishop is the 3rd string compared to Lehner and Anderson. Wiercioch is just a rookie and hasn't proven all that much. And as you said, Cowen has potential, but nothing more as of right now. Voracek is an established top line winger. Simmonds is a top 6 winger as well, and both have proven more than all of those players combined. Plus, they have great contracts. Zero point for the Flyers to ever do this.

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Old
03-20-2013, 08:42 PM
  #13
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I don't think teams really want to take a risk on Cowen until he is fully recovered and playing again on his hip. Scary trading for a player coming off serious hip surgery, you never know if he will have the same movement when he comes back.

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03-20-2013, 08:42 PM
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Yeah, Voracek is going nowhere.

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Old
03-20-2013, 08:43 PM
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Marvelous Manked
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I don't think teams really want to take a risk on Cowen until he is fully recovered and playing again on his hip. Scary trading for a player coming off serious hip surgery, you never know if he will have the same movement when he comes back.
I won't disagree with you, but instead add that this goes both ways.

Teams don't want to take the risk, and the Sens don't want to move a potential #2 defenceman who's value isn't that high right now. Why Cowen is being brought up in any trade proposal boggles my mind.

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Old
03-20-2013, 08:45 PM
  #16
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Originally Posted by Manked View Post
I won't disagree with you, but instead add that this goes both ways.

Teams don't want to take the risk, and the Sens don't want to move a potential #2 defenceman who's value isn't that high right now. Why Cowen is being brought up in any trade proposal boggles my mind.
Same with Voracek/Simmonds being mentioned with these other players. No idea why this was made.

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03-20-2013, 08:47 PM
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Jack de la Hoya
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There are a few different OTT-PHI threads going on right now. There's a reason, I think--the Senators seem to have an extra goalie and a few defensive prospects, both of which are areas of weakness for the Flyers.

That said, the Flyers will not move Voracek or Simmonds at present. I think Bishop + Cowen + 3rd is probably a net win value-wise for the Flyers (if Cowen is healthy and reaches his potential), but they shouldn't do it. Cowen looks a promising young defenseman, but so much of what is said about him reminds me of Coburn, and as good as Coburn can be (and has been in the past), that's not what the Flyers need right now.

Bishop + Wierioch for Read (+) has been kicked around, and might be something that makes more sense. He's still young enough to fit in OTT's core, can give you 2nd line production and play in all situations, and is cheap this year and next year.

I'm not wild about that return, but that's because I see no reason to move Read. It is probably fair value, and if the Flyers are going to move one of their three top-six RWs, it is Read.

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03-20-2013, 08:47 PM
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Cujomi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
Bishop is the 3rd string compared to Lehner and Anderson. Wiercioch is just a rookie and hasn't proven all that much. And as you said, Cowen has potential, but nothing more as of right now. Voracek is an established top line winger. Simmonds is a top 6 winger as well, and both have proven more than all of those players combined. Plus, they have great contracts. Zero point for the Flyers to ever do this.
Cowen played the entire season last year in the NHL and has dominated every level he's played at. Bishop is sporting starting goaltending numbers regardless of where he is on the depth chart and he's still pretty raw.

It's cool though. Every proposal on this board gets shot down because people don't ever offer enough.

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03-20-2013, 08:49 PM
  #19
Cujomi
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
Bishop + Wierioch for Read (+) has been kicked around, and might be something that makes more sense. He's still young enough to fit in OTT's core, can give you 2nd line production and play in all situations, and is cheap this year and next year.

I'm not wild about that return, but that's because I see no reason to move Read. It is probably fair value, and if the Flyers are going to move one of their three top-six RWs, it is Read.
That's an overpayment for Read. Wiercioch alone is worth more than Read...something around Bishop + is ok, but yeah clearly you guys don't value our players so this discussion is pointless.

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03-20-2013, 08:54 PM
  #20
Prongo
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
That's an overpayment for Read. Wiercioch alone is worth more than Read...something around Bishop + is ok, but yeah clearly you guys don't value our players so this discussion is pointless.
This is why we have such difficulties on this board. Wiercioch does not hold more value than Matt Read. Yes Wiercioch has impressed this year, but not we over value young puck moving defenseman on these boards all the time.

You aren't valuing Read like you should either. PP quarterback, PK player, 50 point 2nd liner, great speed and has a great shot. All heart and soul guy. Torn Ribs cartilage right now. We all just seem to think that Read was a UFA college free agent, we don't want to give anything for him! This shouldn't be the case. Yes, he is 26 and still has room to improve his game in the NHL. He might not be the flashiest player, but gets the job done. Read also holds another year on his deal for 900k before hitting UFA. He won't be a cheap sell like so many people believe.

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Old
03-20-2013, 08:56 PM
  #21
Jack de la Hoya
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
That's an overpayment for Read. Wiercioch alone is worth more than Read...something around Bishop + is ok, but yeah clearly you guys don't value our players so this discussion is pointless.
You don't see the (potential) contradiction there?

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03-20-2013, 09:01 PM
  #22
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If Read was fully healthy he should be taking Hartnell's spot on the top line. The Flyers may eventually have to deal him when he's about to become a UFA, but there's no need to give him away.

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03-20-2013, 09:01 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
That's an overpayment for Read. Wiercioch alone is worth more than Read...something around Bishop + is ok, but yeah clearly you guys don't value our players so this discussion is pointless.
Even taking into account their ages, that is just simply not true. Wiercioch needs to have a hell of a season just to have a comparable rookie season to Read's. That also doesn't begin to take into account that Read is one of the most versatile forwards in the NHL. He can play all three forward positions and in just about any role and put up 20-25 goals a season. He kills penalties and plays well on the powerplay. I really think the Flyers should think very hard before giving him up or underselling on him. Versatile forwards in Read's mold are very important to successful teams.

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Old
03-20-2013, 09:02 PM
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The Flyers are deep at center, not wing. Voracek and Simmonds are the team's two best wingers. I doubt there is any desire on the part of the Flyers to move either one of them when they could probably get a better return for Couturier. Value in these proposals may or may not be fair, but the Flyers can hurt themselves less with a different approach.

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Old
03-20-2013, 09:04 PM
  #25
Jack de la Hoya
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
If Read was fully healthy he should be taking Hartnell's spot on the top line. The Flyers may eventually have to deal him when he's about to become a UFA, but there's no need to give him away.
I'm not even sure they will have to.

If they buy-out (or trade) Briere, there are no cap issues next year. They have plenty of space to bring everyone back and make some moves.

They can resign Gagne for slightly less than he is making now ($3.5) on a one-year deal, and then, if needed, use that money to give Read the raise he deserves after next season (as well as resigning Giroux (thus the Briere buyout) and giving Schenn and Couturier their raises.

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