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Old
03-20-2013, 08:04 PM
  #26
flyershockey
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
You don't see the (potential) contradiction there?
I starting to think Read is one of the more underrated forwards in the league. That doesn't mean he should be considered an all-star, but the guy is a very good hockey player.

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Old
03-20-2013, 08:06 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
That's an overpayment for Read. Wiercioch alone is worth more than Read...something around Bishop + is ok, but yeah clearly you guys don't value our players so this discussion is pointless.
What has Wiercioch done that has made him worth more than Read?

LOL.

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Old
03-20-2013, 08:06 PM
  #28
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Why would we trade Cowen exactly?

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Old
03-20-2013, 08:08 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
I'm not even sure they will have to.

If they buy-out (or trade) Briere, there are no cap issues next year. They have plenty of space to bring everyone back and make some moves.

They can resign Gagne for slightly less than he is making now ($3.5) on a one-year deal, and then, if needed, use that money to give Read the raise he deserves after next season (as well as resigning Giroux (thus the Briere buyout) and giving Schenn and Couturier their raises.
There seems to be this running theme with the fanbase that they'll eventually have to move him because they can't afford the raise he's going to get/demand. They may in fact not be able to keep him because he's probably going to want to cash in on what's likely to be the only big contract of his career, but they should think really hard about letting him go or not trying like hell to resign him. He's been an excellent pro thus far, and should be valued just as much as some of the other younger guys like Simmonds and Schenn.

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Old
03-20-2013, 08:08 PM
  #30
Jack de la Hoya
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
I starting to think Read is one of the more underrated forwards in the league. That doesn't mean he should be considered an all-star, but the guy is a very good hockey player.
He's not an all-star. Let's make that clear so we don't get accused of over-rating him, please.

He's a very good all-around player, and one of the best values in the league (at least through the end of next season). No reason to move him, period, unless some cap-strapped team wants to give up a very good defensive prospect for him.

A team who isn't against the cap likely isn't going to give full value, because much of Read's appeal is in his contract. For a team like Ottawa, that doesn't matter as much. Thus, they are a poor fit.

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03-20-2013, 08:11 PM
  #31
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I really don't understand the talk of his contract. He has that for one more year -- nobody trading for Read is doing it so they can have him for one year IMO and if they are trading as a rental it's not going to be for a lot of value.

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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
This is why we have such difficulties on this board. Wiercioch does not hold more value than Matt Read. Yes Wiercioch has impressed this year, but not we over value young puck moving defenseman on these boards all the time.

You aren't valuing Read like you should either. PP quarterback, PK player, 50 point 2nd liner, great speed and has a great shot. All heart and soul guy. Torn Ribs cartilage right now. We all just seem to think that Read was a UFA college free agent, we don't want to give anything for him! This shouldn't be the case. Yes, he is 26 and still has room to improve his game in the NHL. He might not be the flashiest player, but gets the job done. Read also holds another year on his deal for 900k before hitting UFA. He won't be a cheap sell like so many people believe.
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Even taking into account their ages, that is just simply not true. Wiercioch needs to have a hell of a season just to have a comparable rookie season to Read's. That also doesn't begin to take into account that Read is one of the most versatile forwards in the NHL. He can play all three forward positions and in just about any role and put up 20-25 goals a season. He kills penalties and plays well on the powerplay. I really think the Flyers should think very hard before giving him up or underselling on him. Versatile forwards in Read's mold are very important to successful teams.
I'll take the 6'4, raw, offensive defenceman that is on pace for 44 points in his first season in the NHL over a 47 point winger that is defensively responsible and 4 years older. It has nothing to do with undervaluing Read...it just seems like Philly fans have been ****ing on some of Ottawa's players and essentially assigning them no value...which is fine, but I think that this thread should just be closed. I actually think I forgot how these threads work on HFBoards...every proposal is too little to any other team or too much for the team making it. Silly stuff. Always need to offer the world for any player.

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Originally Posted by Emerica View Post
Why would we trade Cowen exactly?
We have a ton of depth on the left side of D (Wiercioch, Borowiecki, Sdao, Claesson, Wikstrand, etc.). Especially with Methot there now. Getting a player like Simmonds or Voracek would be worth it. It's not a necessity or anything, but it's something worth considering.


Last edited by Cujomi: 03-20-2013 at 08:17 PM.
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Old
03-20-2013, 08:13 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
He's not an all-star. Let's make that clear so we don't get accused of over-rating him, please.

He's a very good all-around player, and one of the best values in the league (at least through the end of next season). No reason to move him, period, unless some cap-strapped team wants to give up a very good defensive prospect for him.

A team who isn't against the cap likely isn't going to give full value, because much of Read's appeal is in his contract. For a team like Ottawa, that doesn't matter as much. Thus, they are a poor fit.
Yes... I don't want anyone to think that's what I meant.

See, I view Read a little different than some I guess. I think he has a lot of value just because he's really good player that is incredibly versatile. He's like a Swiss Army knife for the Flyers. Guys in his mold like Patrick Sharp and Rich Peverley aren't the faces of their teams, but they're pretty invaluable because of the way they can change roles on a game to game basis. The fact that his contract is incredible just makes him that much more valuable until the end of next year.

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03-20-2013, 08:20 PM
  #33
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whats with all the Bishop threads.

Also Cowen is a stud. he was easily one our best defenders and a minute eater as a rookie. He even out shined Karlsson at times last year durring his norris season.

it's ok to want your guy over ours but he's really something already.


Last edited by BK201: 03-20-2013 at 08:25 PM.
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Old
03-20-2013, 08:21 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by stempniaksen View Post
I wouldn't move Cowen at this stage, regardless of how good our young depth on defence has looked. I think the only deal that would make any sense at all would be Bishop + for Briere/Read. Sens won't give up the assets required for a guy like Voracek or Simmonds.
For sure this. I highly doubt Cowen would be going anywhere and I'm starting to doubt Wiercioch is either.

Briere for Bishop + something small. Let's do it.

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Old
03-20-2013, 08:22 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
I really don't understand the talk of his contract. He has that for one more year -- nobody trading for Read is doing it so they can have him for one year IMO and if they are trading as a rental it's not going to be for a lot of value.
He's signed this year and next year at 900k.

Typically, pending UFAs are characterized as "rentals," even though you aren't getting them for a full season.

So you are suggesting that Read should be regarded as a sort of two-year (or 1 1/2 year) rental?

Or are all players who are UFAs at the end of next season subject to the same logic?

Maybe that explains why we're so far apart on his value. You think he should be available at a typical rental discount, whereas Flyers fans believe that his contract is a bonus asset on top of his already valuable on-ice production.

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Old
03-20-2013, 08:27 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Yes... I don't want anyone to think that's what I meant.

See, I view Read a little different than some I guess. I think he has a lot of value just because he's really good player that is incredibly versatile. He's like a Swiss Army knife for the Flyers. Guys in his mold like Patrick Sharp and Rich Peverley aren't the faces of their teams, but they're pretty invaluable because of the way they can change roles on a game to game basis. The fact that his contract is incredible just makes him that much more valuable until the end of next year.
Very true. And Ottawa had one in Kelly before being traded to Boston and has one now in Zack Smith.

Not saying Read isn't worth pursuing, I just believe Ottawa is looking for a true top six forward.

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03-20-2013, 08:33 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
We have a ton of depth on the left side of D (Wiercioch, Borowiecki, Sdao, Claesson, Wikstrand, etc.). Especially with Methot there now. Getting a player like Simmonds or Voracek would be worth it. It's not a necessity or anything, but it's something worth considering.
I'd rather keep Cowen than have Voracek or Simmonds and none of Wiercioch, Boro, Sdao, Claesson, Wikstrand, etc. compare to Cowen.

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03-20-2013, 08:35 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
Maybe that explains why we're so far apart on his value. You think he should be available at a typical rental discount, whereas Flyers fans believe that his contract is a bonus asset on top of his already valuable on-ice production.
His contract really isn't that much of a bonus though. How much is one year at that contract really going to help another club? Why would someone give up something valuable for the future for one year of a cheap contract? It's a silly consideration. Yes, he's cheap but that's not what people are going to be trading for. If they are trading value for him it's because they have the room to re-sign him and think that he's a valuable player.

Also we're not far off on his value because my offer was not for him. He's not worth Wiercioch to me, and I'm sure many Sens fans would agree. I like him as a player but he's not much better than a Greening or Smith IMO...not really a "true" top 6 forward...at least not that he's shown. His age and pending UFA status just make him that less attractive when compared to guys like Wiercioch.

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03-20-2013, 08:36 PM
  #39
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Wiercioch:

Easiest minutes on the Sens blueline this year and starting almost 60% of his zone starts in the offensive zone.

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03-20-2013, 08:38 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Emerica View Post
I'd rather keep Cowen than have Voracek or Simmonds and none of Wiercioch, Boro, Sdao, Claesson, Wikstrand, etc. compare to Cowen.
Right but it's more like Voracek/Simmonds + (Wiercioch/Boro/Sdao/Claesson/Wikstrand) vs. just Cowen. I mean obviously there's probably room for one more of them but with what Simmonds and Voracek provide and our organizational structure I would say that it's a fair value and would benefit both sides...especially with how Methot has played.

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Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
Wiercioch:

Easiest minutes on the Sens blueline this year and starting almost 60% of his zone starts in the offensive zone.
Wiercioch: less time, one of the most depleted teams in the league -- still keeping pace with Read in scoring as a defenceman and playing responsible defensively.

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03-20-2013, 08:42 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
I'll take the 6'4, raw, offensive defenceman that is on pace for 44 points in his first season in the NHL over a 47 point winger that is defensively responsible and 4 years older. It has nothing to do with undervaluing Read...it just seems like Philly fans have been ****ing on some of Ottawa's players and essentially assigning them no value...which is fine, but I think that this thread should just be closed. I actually think I forgot how these threads work on HFBoards...every proposal is too little to any other team or too much for the team making it. Silly stuff. Always need to offer the world for any player.
I could say the same thing about some of the Ottawa fans in these threads recently as well. In reality, most fans don't watch other teams enough to really comment on trade value of players on other teams outside of the star names. It's part of the reason that I usually don't talk about the trades themselves, and mostly just focus on clearing up any misinformation regarding Flyers players.


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Originally Posted by miser View Post
Very true. And Ottawa had one in Kelly before being traded to Boston and has one now in Zack Smith.

Not saying Read isn't worth pursuing, I just believe Ottawa is looking for a true top six forward.
Sorry, I would have to say that Read is more suited for a top six role than either of those two guys. Even if you want to just go by offensive stats, Read has put up a better rookie year than either of those guys have in their career years. He is a guy that should and would be playing in the top six if not for Briere being clearly showcased for a potential trade. He's outplayed him at every point this season. He's also spent time moving between all three of the top nine lines as injuries have really shuffled the lineup for most of the season.

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Old
03-20-2013, 08:44 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
Wiercioch:

Easiest minutes on the Sens blueline this year and starting almost 60% of his zone starts in the offensive zone.
This is where stats can be misleading. Wiercioch doesn't play the PK and most even strength faceoffs in Ottawa games are in the offensive zone.

But the point is moot - Wiercioch is the type of player all teams want - he isn't going anyhwere.

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03-20-2013, 08:44 PM
  #43
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Just to clarify with Zack Smith...in the first opportunity he's had at the top 6 he's got 6 points in 7 games with 3 goals. He's looked very good in that position.

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03-20-2013, 08:47 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
His contract really isn't that much of a bonus though. How much is one year at that contract really going to help another club? Why would someone give up something valuable for the future for one year of a cheap contract? It's a silly consideration. Yes, he's cheap but that's not what people are going to be trading for. If they are trading value for him it's because they have the room to re-sign him and think that he's a valuable player.

Also we're not far off on his value because my offer was not for him. He's not worth Wiercioch to me, and I'm sure many Sens fans would agree. I like him as a player but he's not much better than a Greening or Smith IMO...not really a "true" top 6 forward...at least not that he's shown. His age and pending UFA status just make him that less attractive when compared to guys like Wiercioch.
I think you're making this more complicated than it needs to be.

Let's say Matt Read's market contract rate is $4 million (pick a different number if you want--maybe it is $3 or $3.5).

You're getting him at massive discount this year and next year, then paying him market value beginning in year 3. That is an advantage over getting the same production at market rate for the rest of this year, next year, and year 3.

You see what we're saying?

Anyway, if you think Matt Read is basically just a normal third line player, then it doesn't make sense for you to make an offer for him, because the Flyers (and, I think, most objective fans) would place his value higher than that. That doesn't mean you should, but it means that a discussion about his trade value is not likely to be productive or fruitful.


Last edited by Jack de la Hoya: 03-20-2013 at 08:50 PM. Reason: Generalize rather than compare particular platers
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Old
03-20-2013, 08:55 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
Wiercioch: less time, one of the most depleted teams in the league -- still keeping pace with Read in scoring as a defenceman and playing responsible defensively.
Has Wiercioch torn any rib cage muscles this year?

Thought so.

Pre injury (Feb. 20 against Pens)

13 points in 17 games

0 points in 6 mins against the Pens where he got hurt.

1 assist in 7 games since.

He was expected to miss 4-6 weeks, but he came back in 2.

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Old
03-20-2013, 08:59 PM
  #46
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Simmer and voracek are going nowhere

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Old
03-20-2013, 09:01 PM
  #47
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Wiercioch has almost the same stats line as Read. Anyways, Cowen isn't being traded, Wiercioch isn't being traded, which means we're not getting Read nevermind Vorachek. Bishop+ is a quantity for quality deal.

For Bishop a late 1st or 2nd + some decent prospect is what we'll get, or a veteran like Briere.

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03-20-2013, 09:07 PM
  #48
Jack de la Hoya
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Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
Wiercioch has almost the same stats line as Read. Anyways, Cowen isn't being traded, Wiercioch isn't being traded, which means we're not getting Read nevermind Vorachek. Bishop+ is a quantity for quality deal.

For Bishop a late 1st or 2nd + some decent prospect is what we'll get, or a veteran like Briere.
So far, I think Bishop / Briere is about the only thing that some Flyers fans and some Senators fans have agreed works.

Any other deal has turned into a protracted discussion that makes us both end up looking bad.

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03-20-2013, 09:10 PM
  #49
Jack de la Hoya
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Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post

Pre injury (Feb. 20 against Pens)

13 points in 17 games
....
He was expected to miss 4-6 weeks, but he came back in 2.
Honestly, I thought that he was out best forward during the first part of the year. Voracek came on a bit later. Read looked really good from the start.

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03-20-2013, 09:17 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
So far, I think Bishop / Briere is about the only thing that some Flyers fans and some Senators fans have agreed works.

Any other deal has turned into a protracted discussion that makes us both end up looking bad.
Well those Sens fans who have agreed to a Bishop/Briere swap may have missed the memo. We traded a 2nd rounder for Bish not even a year ago, he's still fairly young at 26 and Murray has clearly said he isn't going to trade young guys for rentals/older guys like Briere.

Thank god.

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