Playing well for 25 percent or even half of the season simply isn't good enough. He hasn't even been asked to be the number one defenseman this year either. He's been on the second pair with Grossman. Timonen still plays a much larger role for them, and Schenn has even done more than him. I'm over waiting for Coburn to put it all together.
Mez has also been terrible... no argument from me here. He shouldn't be playing if he's injured, and if he's healthy, then he's just been brutal.
It doesn't really matter though, neither guy is going anywhere. We have no one ready to replace them from within the system. We also can't afford to move any roster pieces to replace them because we have nobody to replace those guys from the prospect system.
I'm not defending Coburn's play this year, he's been terrible... but he has easily been our #1 defenseman if you look at the role he has been playing. Yes Timonen has a marginally higher Corsi Rel QoC and so does Luke Schenn, but Coburn dominates Timonen and Schenn in terms of Even Strength TOI and Short-Handed TOI. Coburn is getting the toughest minutes for this team.
I definitely disagree with the decision to use him the way Lavi has, but the facts are that Coburn is playing the most minutes and the most difficult defensive minutes. And if you're going to trash his play (and he definitely deserves some criticism), he deserves to at least be treated fairly with the proper facts being reported about the difficulty of his role this year.
Coburn is a really good #3/#4 defenseman, maybe even #2 if he's paired with a great #1, but he's not a guy who can anchor a pairing / team.
Dead weight? I seriously can not believe what I'm seeing. The guy has been bad this season, yes, absolutely. But does that really erase years of being an excellent #3 guy? Holy crap. Some of you people are just hysterical.
Okay, this board officially lost its mind.
Gonna check out for the extended break. This is mind numbing.
Years of being a number three? At his best, he's played like a good number three, but he's never been consistent enough to be counted on to do that. He'll give you maybe half a season at that level, and the other half leaves you questioning everything about him down his actual compete level.
Coburn has played the most out of all the defensemen, by over a minute per game. Coburn/Grossmann has been going up against top lines for most games, or Coburn/Gervais when they were split up. Timonen and Schenn have both been playing a secondary role even strength most games.
Yeah that's the problem. People may talk about giving up and dumping, but that's just cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Yup. People can get frustrated all they want with his play, but his spot is about as guaranteed possible because he's the only option.
With his skill set, Coburn should at least be a #2 at minimum most of the time. However, he still languishes between a #5 to a #2. Very frustrating to watch and see year in, year out. It might be better to trade him while he still has value. Who knows, maybe a change of scenery will help Coburn out.
I'm not defending Coburn's play this year, he's been terrible... but he has easily been our #1 defenseman if you look at the role he has been playing. Yes Timonen has a marginally higher Corsi Rel QoC and so does Luke Schenn, but Coburn dominates Timonen and Schenn in terms of Even Strength TOI and Short-Handed TOI. Coburn is getting the toughest minutes for this team.
I definitely disagree with the decision to use him the way Lavi has, but the facts are that Coburn is playing the most minutes and the most difficult defensive minutes. And if you're going to trash his play (and he definitely deserves some criticism), he deserves to at least be treated fairly with the proper facts being reported about the difficulty of his role this year.
Coburn is a really good #3/#4 defenseman, maybe even #2 if he's paired with a great #1, but he's not a guy who can anchor a pairing / team.
I'm not denying that he's been handed a tough role, but that's what comes with his salary. Plus, he's shown at times that he's capable of fulfilling that role in previous years. He just hasn't shown any consistency which is frustrating. He's not a young guy anymore, and he needs to either get it together or be moved. He can't be called a top four guy in any regards if he's only going to do it for small stretches at a time.
If we do trade him, we'll need a replacement for him this summer, otherwise this D will be extremely bad next year. I'm not sure it's a good idea, altough we could get a nice return for him.
I'm not denying that he's been handed a tough role, but that's what comes with his salary. Plus, he's shown at times that he's capable of fulfilling that role in previous years. He just hasn't shown any consistency which is frustrating. He's not a young guy anymore, and he needs to either get it together or be moved. He can't be called a top four guy in any regards if he's only going to do it for small stretches at a time.
That's what comes w/ his salary? Nicklas Grossmann showed the ability to be a decent/good defenseman in Orange and Black for what? Less than half a year? And he got 3.5M per year over 4 years. I don't understand how all these expectations come with Coburn's 4.5M salary.
I totally agree that he's played like crap this year, but acting like because he gets paid 4.5M per year he should be some all world defenseman is a little disingenuous. 4.5M isn't that much. If you look at others with comparable cap hits, you'll see some better (Bieksa, Hamhuis), some worse (Ballard, Komisarek, Garrison), and similar (Martin, Hainsey). 4.5M is about fair IMO for the type of player Coburn has been these past few years. At some points he's looked like he's worth more than 4.5M and at some points he's looked like he's worth less, but all in all the reason why Coburn is only paid 4.5M instead of a higher salary in because of that inconsistency.
For all of that "inconsistency" though, there's been very few points in his career where he's looked like a 3rd pairing D. Even right now, I think he'd look a whole lot better if you dialed his minutes back to Grossmann type minutes (roughly 4 less minutes per game) and put him out there regularly against an opponent's 2nd and 3rd lines instead of consistently matching him up w/ an opponents 1st and 2nd lines.
Again, he's been terrible this year, but I think there's way too much piling on Coburn right now. The cap hit argument isn't really a good/fair one IMO. If we're criticizing anyone for their production relative to cap hit, we should be going after Meszaros.
That's what comes w/ his salary? Nicklas Grossmann showed the ability to be a decent/good defenseman in Orange and Black for what? Less than half a year? And he got 3.5M per year over 4 years. I don't understand how all these expectations come with Coburn's 4.5M salary.
I totally agree that he's played like crap this year, but acting like because he gets paid 4.5M per year he should be some all world defenseman is a little disingenuous. 4.5M isn't that much. If you look at others with comparable cap hits, you'll see some better (Bieksa, Hamhuis), some worse (Ballard, Komisarek, Garrison), and similar (Martin, Hainsey). 4.5M is about fair IMO for the type of player Coburn has been these past few years. At some points he's looked like he's worth more than 4.5M and at some points he's looked like he's worth less, but all in all the reason why Coburn is only paid 4.5M instead of a higher salary in because of that inconsistency.
For all of that "inconsistency" though, there's been very few points in his career where he's looked like a 3rd pairing D. Even right now, I think he'd look a whole lot better if you dialed his minutes back to Grossmann type minutes (roughly 4 less minutes per game) and put him out there regularly against an opponent's 2nd and 3rd lines instead of consistently matching him up w/ an opponents 1st and 2nd lines.
Again, he's been terrible this year, but I think there's way too much piling on Coburn right now. The cap hit argument isn't really a good/fair one IMO. If we're criticizing anyone for their production relative to cap hit, we should be going after Meszaros.
Grossman isn't expected to be the two way guy like Coburn is though. I'm not saying Coburn should be a forty point guy, because he can't, but he has to be better when handling the puck. Grossman has consistently made better decisions with both the first pass and in the offensive zone. And that's not even what Grossman is known for. That doesn't even bring up the fact that Coburn has routinely been brutal in his own zone and has taken a bunch of horrible minors as a result of bad positioning.
Those guys in Coburn's price range, outside of Komisarek and Ballard (two of the worst contracts in the league btw), are all asked to play in a role pretty similar to what Coburn is asked to do for the Flyers. All of the others have also out performed him terribly this year. Hell, Paul Martin has been flat out fantastic, and a lot of people consider Hamhuis just as important as Edler to Vancouver.
Look I'm not saying a player always has to outperform or even always play up to his contract. It's partially Homer's fault for giving a deal like that to a player who has proven to be wildly inconsistent in the past, but should we not expect a little more than the same level of player that we've seen since he was the steal of the century nearly seven years ago? Or should we just expect that Coburn will always be a number four that's paid like a number two, and is overwhelmed anytime he gets assignments above a second pair guy?
And neither does 30 games. Not to mention it wasn't just a 6 game series it was, coincidentally, about 30.
He's played the minutes of a #1 this year and he's not. He hasn't regressed, he's being exposed because he is being asked to do something he isn't capable of. He is still a good Top 4 defenseman like he's always been. He cannot carry a pairing, but he is an excellent partner for a legit #1. Did I just imagine the past several years of him and Timonen being a good pairing night in and night out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey
I certainly wasn't, and much of their success was from Grossman playing fantastically well. It's no coincidence that the pair wasn't nearly as effective after Grossman's knee injury. Also, if he was playing well, it should just be another example of how frustrating a player he truly is. He's had 7 NHL seasons to figure out how to be consistent, and he simply hasn't. His month long streaks are nice to watch, but he's expected to be much more than that based on his position with the team and his salary.
It isn't a coincidence because usually when half of whatever you have is playing hurt, it's not going to be as good.
Your problem is that your expectations do not match with reality. He is not a great player, he is a solid player. Solid players make mistakes, and lack consistency, but are good more often than not. Great players are consistent, they are #1 dmen. He is not, and he is not paid to be either. He is paid to be a Top 4 dman, which he is. He can play on a top pairing just fine if he's not forced to carry it. He and Grossman worked well together, but they would not work out as a top pairing over the course of a season. This is why we need an actual #1.
If we do trade him, we'll need a replacement for him this summer, otherwise this D will be extremely bad next year. I'm not sure it's a good idea, altough we could get a nice return for him.
If we do trade him a legit #1 will come the other way, so it's not an issue.
They are not going to sell him low for picks but I doubt he is going anywhere due to his NTC.
He plays like he's worth 5 mill on occasion when someone slips sandpaper into his jock for a week. Other than that, I haven't seen him take a step forward in years, which leaves him several steps back from what he's paid to be. I've been patient in my judgement of him throughout his tenure but he's just not worth it anymore if we can find a way to replace his spot.
It's modified, so it is probably a list of 10 or so teams he would not want to be dealt to. Not a big road block if we ever do try to trade him.
We also have 8 NTC/NMC/modified NTC on our roster(excluding Pronger). It's pretty much the norm for franchises to have about 6-8 of them. We aren't the only team with so many. Look at the Flames, they have 11.
Toronto
Pittsburgh
Vancouver
Chicago
Tampa Bay
Boston
Flames
These teams all have 8 or more NTC/NMC on their roster. With about 3-4 teams having 7 on it.
It's modified, so it is probably a list of 10 or so teams he would not want to be dealt to. Not a big road block if we ever do try to trade him.
We also have 8 NTC/NMC/modified NTC on our roster(excluding Pronger). It's pretty much the norm for franchises to have about 6-8 of them. We aren't the only team with so many. Look at the Flames, they have 11.
Toronto
Pittsburgh
Vancouver
Chicago
Tampa Bay
Boston
Flames
These teams all have 8 or more NTC/NMC on their roster. With about 3-4 teams having 7 on it.
Just noticed Coburn is 6th in the league in give aways with 30, and still leading the league in minor penalties with 18. Sounds like bad decision making.
Edit: Also Hartnell tied for 4th in minor penalties with 15 in less than half the games of everybody near him.. Guy needs to stop taking dumb penalties.
To put those stats into perspective a bit more, he's 47th in time on ice per game, and I think only 4 players ahead of him haven't played a comparable amount of games.
Just noticed Coburn is 6th in the league in give aways with 30, and still leading the league in minor penalties with 18. Sounds like bad decision making.
Edit: Also Hartnell tied for 4th in minor penalties with 15 in less than half the games of everybody near him.. Guy needs to stop taking dumb penalties.
Coburn really needs to cut down on the giveaways, but with the giveaways, he's being asked to be something we all know he can't do: be the primary puck mover on a defensive pairing.
Last edited by Go For It: 03-20-2013 at 07:51 PM.
Reason: Clarified "he"
