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Desharnais signed to a contract extension (4 years @ $3.5M/yr)

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Old
03-20-2013, 02:23 PM
  #851
Kjell Dahlin
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Well, if we're going to list his positive attributes, in the spirit of fairness we should point out that there are some negatives.

Weak defensively. Plays sheltered minutes. Size issues for a center. Not great at faceoffs.

Again, not saying he's a bad player, I like him ,but he obviously has flaws.

I agree with your positives though, can't deny that he has a high compete level and can produce.
I already mentioned his flaws: physically weak even when you compare him to other small players like Gionta, Bouillon, Saint-Louis, he becomes a liability once our opponents gain control in our zone, does not use his shot enough and becomes somewhat predictable because of it... Desharnais is far from perfect. Heck... we all know that the only perfect player in here is Eller!

I just don’t feel the need to mention them ad nauseam in the current context: we already have some hfboarders who are labeling him as a second line AHLer or a buyout candidate!


PS he is receiving sheltered minutes (away from the top line, more offensive zone FO) but he is often playing against our opponents’ top ES D pairing.

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03-20-2013, 02:23 PM
  #852
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Originally Posted by NHLFutureGuy3 View Post
It is just a stupid contract. We should have just traded him before it was time to sign him. Mark my words, this little guy will get dominated in the playoffs where teams are game planning to find ways to exploit us.
These arguments are like pissing in the wind around here

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03-20-2013, 02:26 PM
  #853
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
No but face-offs, being strong defensively, winning board battles, hitting, being hysical, and being able to clear and gain the zones effectively are all integral to being a center.

All areas where Eller is better than DD. Which is to say that we maximize Eller and DD by moving DD to the wing. I dont know why this idea is a horrible thing to DD fans.
Bold=No. DD wins more faceoffs. Please don't look at a 20 game sample and make conclusions, check last year for example.
As for hysical, I assume physical. So i'm glad Eller is hitting and being physical as opposed to just hitting a lot and not being physical

Eller is obviously the more complete player. Few would deny that, btu he's not clearly better at everything. That's a fallacy. It's not to say DD is the best faceoff man on the team or anything like that but for the sake of discussion I'm pointing out that DD is better at it. I can't argue about the defensive aspects although I do think DD has good vision to set up the zone offensively. Eller also has a good puck protection game so it's not exclusive.

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03-20-2013, 02:30 PM
  #854
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
The point is, most people (incl me) think that DD cannot produce without Pacioretty - so seeing Eller play stellar without our best winger kinda implies that we should a) play them together and b) demote DD because Eller is steller.
Couldn't have said it better myself....

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03-20-2013, 02:33 PM
  #855
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Bold=No. DD wins more faceoffs. Please don't look at a 20 game sample and make conclusions, check last year for example.

.
I don't want to talk about Eller (understandably, too much of that in this thread) but we do have to acknowledge that Desharnais is currently our worst face-off C.

While all our C's have progressed this year, he has regressed.

That being said, you are right that last year he had better faceoff stats (49.4%, and 49.7% the year beforehand)

His faceoffs definitely could be better, but it's not a glaring weakness per say. Hopefully he shores up his draws this year though and returns to his normal %.

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03-20-2013, 02:35 PM
  #856
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
I think he might be referring to boucherscouting

http://www.boucherscouting.com/
I was; more specifically http://www.boucherscouting.com/2013/...g-chances.html

Just to be clear: Pacioretty, Desharnais and Gallagher are receiving more offensive zone starts (FO) and they are not facing the same quality of opposition than Plekanec.

Nonetheless, it does show that Desharnais, in his role, is effective

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03-20-2013, 02:39 PM
  #857
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
I was; more specifically http://www.boucherscouting.com/2013/...g-chances.html

Just to be clear: Pacioretty, Desharnais and Gallagher are receiving more offensive zone starts (FO) and they are not facing the same quality of opposition than Plekanec.

Nonetheless, it does show that Desharnais, in his role, is effective
It shows that, at least, the line as a whole is effective in its role.

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03-20-2013, 02:41 PM
  #858
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Desharnais played mostly with White and Pouliot in his first year, but he still did produce.

http://www.cs.unb.ca/~mwf/habs/2010-...season/gf.html
He did produce???

22 points in 43 games MINUS 8 points in powerplay which he didn't play with White and Pouliot makes: 14 points.....and a -3.


Yep he did produce, but not that much!!

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03-20-2013, 02:46 PM
  #859
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
He did produce???

22 points in 43 games MINUS 8 points in powerplay which he didn't play with White and Pouliot makes: 14 points.....and a -3.


Yep he did produce, but not that much!!
Aye, context is important.

First of all he was a rookie, his most used line (White and Pouliot...eesh) was 2nd in goals scored per 60 minutes of even-strength time, and he was played on the 4th line a lot, with he and Halpern alternating. .

He produced.

I know you try to discredit him every chance you get, but let's try not to cherry pick stats too too much.

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03-20-2013, 02:47 PM
  #860
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
He did produce???

22 points in 43 games MINUS 8 points in powerplay which he didn't play with White and Pouliot makes: 14 points.....and a -3.


Yep he did produce, but not that much!!
Producing with white and pouliot is still a feat.

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03-20-2013, 02:59 PM
  #861
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Well, he's on pace for a 23 goal season. Eller is on pace for 12 goals in 82GP.

I mean, I don't see anything wrong with his goal production. Don't mean to drag Eller into it but we can agree he's producing, then why is DD's goal production as a playmaker less than ideal?

FWIW.Eller has 13 ESP, Desharnais has 12. DD has 4 PPP, Eller has 3.

All this tells me is that they are both producing ESPs at similar pace. In addition, it means DD hasn't been a PP specialist and Eller should get a shot on PP as he's more effective although its a smaller sample size.

At same time though, both are contributing and if they gotta mix it up, by all means go ahead. Want the team to win. I think both add to the team's success, it's about optimizing the returns.

No one has to make excuses for DD. For example, I pointed out Eller's goal projection and I never asked anyone to justify it because...who cares? What excuses does he need? He's played well. I find DD has earned his keep as well. These guys can play on the same hockey team, it's really not as complicated as people make it out to be.
Completely irrelevant to your point but the thing you have to consider about goals is their shooting % which tends to regress to mean over a full season. DD's is at 19.5% (~15% seems to be his average) while Eller is at 7.3% (~11% seems to be his average). A lot of things point to Eller improving production and perhaps adding a more offensively capable RW to his line could help the team.

I'd like to see DD with Ryder as our sheltered offensive line with Ryder in his natural position:

Pacioretty - Plekanec - Gallagher
Bourque/Prust/uninjured player who uses his size for board battles and defensively sound - Desharnais - Ryder
Galchenyuk - Eller - Gionta

Separate the midgets to 3 lines since having 2 tiny players doesn't really bode well for defensive coverage. Have DD setup Ryder for snipes.

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03-20-2013, 03:01 PM
  #862
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
I was; more specifically http://www.boucherscouting.com/2013/...g-chances.html

Just to be clear: Pacioretty, Desharnais and Gallagher are receiving more offensive zone starts (FO) and they are not facing the same quality of opposition than Plekanec.

Nonetheless, it does show that Desharnais, in his role, is effective
Thanks for the link. Sadly the picture is broken so I can't see the graph. Also it sounded like not everyone on the ice gets credited with generating a scoring chance nor was what constitutes a scoring chance actually is. Oh well.

As you mentioned Desharnais for the most part goes up against weaker offensive forwards, and good shutdown defenceman, so you would expect him to have a very good ratio of scoring chances for/against. It would've been nice to see how his ratio compared to other teams top offensive lines.

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03-20-2013, 03:06 PM
  #863
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
I don't want to talk about Eller (understandably, too much of that in this thread) but we do have to acknowledge that Desharnais is currently our worst face-off C.

While all our C's have progressed this year, he has regressed.

That being said, you are right that last year he had better faceoff stats (49.4%, and 49.7% the year beforehand)

His faceoffs definitely could be better, but it's not a glaring weakness per say. Hopefully he shores up his draws this year though and returns to his normal %.
Fair enough on Eller point.

That's all i'm saying though. It seems very easy to point the finger and say he's less than so and so in FOW % and all that now. Yet he's usually a very average player in the faceoff circle. I certainly wouldn't call it a liability nor would I suggest any one of our centers(plekanec included) excels at it enough to be deemed a specialist of some sort.

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03-20-2013, 03:07 PM
  #864
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Aye, context is important.

First of all he was a rookie, his most used line (White and Pouliot...eesh) was 2nd in goals scored per 60 minutes of even-strength time, and he was played on the 4th line a lot, with he and Halpern alternating. .

He produced.

I know you try to discredit him every chance you get, but let's try not to cherry pick stats too too much.
It's just to compare them whit the same basis.
DD gets powerplay time and Eller don't.

DD did do good with White and Pouliot.....but so is Eller's 28 points in 79 games last year with Blunden/Darche/Moen/Palushaj/Leblanc/Kostitsyn.

For some reason, for one it was enough to get top line duties...for the other, not enough to get top line assigment....but we're talking about the same production considering the Powerplay time.

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03-20-2013, 03:12 PM
  #865
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Completely irrelevant to your point but the thing you have to consider about goals is their shooting % which tends to regress to mean over a full season. DD's is at 19.5% (~15% seems to be his average) while Eller is at 7.3% (~11% seems to be his average). A lot of things point to Eller improving production and perhaps adding a more offensively capable RW to his line could help the team.

I'd like to see DD with Ryder as our sheltered offensive line with Ryder in his natural position:

Pacioretty - Plekanec - Gallagher
Bourque/Prust/uninjured player who uses his size for board battles and defensively sound - Desharnais - Ryder
Galchenyuk - Eller - Gionta

Separate the midgets to 3 lines since having 2 tiny players doesn't really bode well for defensive coverage. Have DD setup Ryder for snipes.
Not sure if we've spoke about it together but one issue with Eller is his release. I think he has a good shot but he doesn't get it off as quickly or elusively as a true sniper would(nothing to do with dd who isn't a sniper either)

As for DD-Ryder. Meh. What makes dd different is that beyond being a little guy he's also a guy who doesn't go for open man in permieter type of passes. He usually works front of the net, in back of it or essentially in traffic. That's why gally and Max work with him. I'd rather Bourque on his line rather than Ryder. More effective IMO

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03-20-2013, 03:25 PM
  #866
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
It's just to compare them whit the same basis.
DD gets powerplay time and Eller don't.

DD did do good with White and Pouliot.....but so is Eller's 28 points in 79 games last year with Blunden/Darche/Moen/Palushaj/Leblanc/Kostitsyn.

For some reason, for one it was enough to get top line duties...for the other, not enough to get top line assigment....but we're talking about the same production considering the Powerplay time.
See, you are actually right about what you are saying in respect to Eller, but why do you feel the need to constantly compare them? They aren't the same players. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that Eller is the more well rounded player if that's what you want to hear.

I get that they are both centers, but they both contribute in a different way. You don't HAVE to denigrate one to compliment the other, know what I mean?

p.s. you are probably the only poster that I have ever been on this side of the conversation when it comes to Desharnais. I am usually told I'm a "DD hater"

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03-20-2013, 04:14 PM
  #867
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Not sure if we've spoke about it together but one issue with Eller is his release. I think he has a good shot but he doesn't get it off as quickly or elusively as a true sniper would(nothing to do with dd who isn't a sniper either)

As for DD-Ryder. Meh. What makes dd different is that beyond being a little guy he's also a guy who doesn't go for open man in permieter type of passes. He usually works front of the net, in back of it or essentially in traffic. That's why gally and Max work with him. I'd rather Bourque on his line rather than Ryder. More effective IMO
Of course, he's definitely no Pacioretty or Galchenyuk in terms of his release but he has the ability to get pucks to the net, well still improving but he's shown flashes recently, makes me think he'll end up becoming whatever center type Plekanec is offensively. Unless you're Gomez, usually forwards that shoot a lot convert ~10%.

I'm suggesting both Bourque and Ryder.

I don't think it's fair to suggest he's a perimeter player. Here are his career goals in reverse chronological order
http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/con...467545&lang=en

DD is good at finding ways to hitting the open man in front of the net and I wouldn't be surprised if these two become a regen of Ribs-Ryder.

I'd say Gallagher has been the key cog of what makes that line work offensively rather than DD or Pacioretty. Defensively on even strength, the line has given up almost just as many goals as it's produced and struggles to produce anything on the PP. Plekanec might be able to make that line defensively sound while maintaining the offense. I think Gionta is better suited as a 3rd liner with Eller-Galchenyuk than as one of the go to players offensively.

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03-20-2013, 04:17 PM
  #868
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
He did produce???

22 points in 43 games MINUS 8 points in powerplay which he didn't play with White and Pouliot makes: 14 points.....and a -3.


Yep he did produce, but not that much!!
Which is more than Eller (22 in 79GP with larger minutes) produced last year with the same quality of linemates. I'm not calling Eller bad - love him - just pointing out that it's hard to chirp DD for that while praising Eller.

25~ points over a season at ES is very good for a third liner.

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03-20-2013, 04:25 PM
  #869
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
See, you are actually right about what you are saying in respect to Eller, but why do you feel the need to constantly compare them? They aren't the same players. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that Eller is the more well rounded player if that's what you want to hear.

I get that they are both centers, but they both contribute in a different way. You don't HAVE to denigrate one to compliment the other, know what I mean?

p.s. you are probably the only poster that I have ever been on this side of the conversation when it comes to Desharnais. I am usually told I'm a "DD hater"
I agree with you here.

Eller is doing well in his role.
DD is doing well in his role.

One does not need to be torn down in order for the other to be elevated.

Chemistry on a line is as important as skill. Desharnais, Pacioretty and Gallagher have obvious chemistry and are having success. Adding Eller to that line instead of DD may not have the same chemistry.

And that is NOT a knock on Eller in any way.

Let us sit back and enjoy the Habs successful season. It would be another thing (and probably valid arguments) if we were sitting in 10th place wondering if we are going to make the playoffs.

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03-20-2013, 04:26 PM
  #870
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Which is more than Eller (22 in 79GP with larger minutes) produced last year with the same quality of linemates. I'm not calling Eller bad - love him - just pointing out that it's hard to chirp DD for that while praising Eller.

25~ points over a season at ES is very good for a third liner.
Eller had 3 SH points too as a 3rd liner to go along with his 22 ES points.

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03-20-2013, 04:29 PM
  #871
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Eller had 3 SH points too as a 3rd liner to go along with his 22 ES points. Same quality linemates, but with that more icetime came more difficult opposition.
And also more NHL experience. And we could say the same for DD getting the PP points as a 3rd liner.

I should really stop talking about Eller, cause I don't want to be called a hater like I was with Price. I love Eller, he's ****ing awesome... But we are in first place right now, I don't get why so many people want so many changes.

Especially with our injuries - DDs line is facing better defensive competition then they did at the start of the season (through the first week or two, DD's line was actually facing other teams top lines).

Bourque and Prust back will help in a huge way.

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03-20-2013, 07:37 PM
  #872
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Especially with our injuries - DDs line is facing better defensive competition then they did at the start of the season (through the first week or two, DD's line was actually facing other teams top lines).
Actually they are not, you are right in the first two weeks the DD line was playing against top lines but their role has gotten more and more sheltered as the season has gone on, and in the past few weeks especially their role has been softened as the Eller line has been given more two way responsibility.

Currently Desharnais Corsi QoC is ranked 11th on the team. His offensive zone starts have been lately over 60% in the offensive zone. EOTP just posted a statastical analysis of Desharnais this season, it's very balanced so I reccomend checking it out. Desharnais isn't doing bad by any means, in fact he's shooting much more than he did last year, but his overall game is as limited as it has always been.

But as EOTP also pointed out, 3.5M a year puts him in league with guys like Kostitsyn and Bourque, so it's an extremely fair contract that he earned. Second line type money, and he's producing at a second line level, even if he's not quite as effective as last year.


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03-20-2013, 07:45 PM
  #873
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Actually they are not, you are right in the first two weeks the DD line was playing against top lines but their role has gotten more and more sheltered as the season has gone on, and in the past few weeks especially their role has been softened as the Eller line has been given more two way responsibility.

Currently Desharnais Corsi QoC is ranked 11th on the team. EOTP just posted a statastical analysis of Desharnais this season, it's very balanced so I reccomend checking it out. Desharnais isn't doing bad by any means, in fact he's shooting much more than he did last year, but his overall game is as limited as it has always been.

But as EOTP also pointed out, 3.5M a year puts him in league with guys like Kostitsyn and Bourque, so it's an extremely fair contract that he earned. Second line type money, and he's producing at a second line level, even if he's not quite as effective as last year.
The EOTP article is very good and makes a few conclusions based on Desharmais' contract, two of which you mentioned above. The other is it appears that Galchenyuk is to be broken in slowly, in the mold of Seguin. All in all, an interesting, informative article.

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03-20-2013, 07:55 PM
  #874
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The EOTP article is very good and makes a few conclusions based on Desharmais' contract, two of which you mentioned above. The other is it appears that Galchenyuk is to be broken in slowly, in the mold of Seguin. All in all, an interesting, informative article.
That too, and I hope they are right there. We have a good mix of centers right now, I know everyone wants Gally to break out ASAP but I like him with Eller there.

But I can't reccomend EOTP's half of the season reviews enough...only Plekanec and Desharnais so far but they do a good job breaking the stats down to judge players by their true roles.

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03-21-2013, 12:06 AM
  #875
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Actually they are not, you are right in the first two weeks the DD line was playing against top lines but their role has gotten more and more sheltered as the season has gone on, and in the past few weeks especially their role has been softened as the Eller line has been given more two way responsibility.

Currently Desharnais Corsi QoC is ranked 11th on the team. His offensive zone starts have been lately over 60% in the offensive zone. EOTP just posted a statastical analysis of Desharnais this season, it's very balanced so I reccomend checking it out. Desharnais isn't doing bad by any means, in fact he's shooting much more than he did last year, but his overall game is as limited as it has always been.

But as EOTP also pointed out, 3.5M a year puts him in league with guys like Kostitsyn and Bourque, so it's an extremely fair contract that he earned. Second line type money, and he's producing at a second line level, even if he's not quite as effective as last year.
Even as someone who's, let's say, not overly partial to Desharnais, I'd agree that the analysis there was pretty fair and accurate/reflective.

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