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Old
01-28-2013, 03:43 PM
  #276
Njoy Oilers
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Good point.

But I don't know that I write it more times than Krushell and Sohi state it. Sohi was just stating it again last week.

ps how many people "correct the internet"

How much sense does any of this online behavior make? I thought the internet would make me rich, rich, rich beyond my beliefs...

Wheres the hits and money, I want my bling, bling me the bling. Maybe I'll build a backyard rink..
You need to write a best of "Replacement rants". Hard cover at Costco ought to do it.

Then you won't need to hang out with the rest of us menial street scum.

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01-28-2013, 03:44 PM
  #277
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4 times as much as the current ticket tax huh? You forgot the "IMO" again Replacement - unless you have some proof to back up your "grandstanding". You really expect Katz to go from 4 million generated per year from the ticket tax to over 16 million in 9 years?

The ticket tax is already at roughly 7% per ducat and has been for a while -

http://www.cbj.ca/business_news/cana...ton_arena.html

- This above quote is old of course, and now we know that it's being contributed towards the costs of the arena to the tune of $125 million.

The current tax brings in approximately 2M/yr. as per an article on Friday.

http://www.globaltvedmonton.com/nort...541/story.html


Quote:
That means when the new arena opens, Northlands will lose the roughly $2 million a year it gets from the current ticket tax,
This is a fraction of what the new surcharge must bring in.

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01-28-2013, 03:53 PM
  #278
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So what's the issue with having a ticket tax? I for one wish more venues that have public funds would go that route. You hate the arena and don't want to further support it then don't go. You like the new arena and want to further support it then go.

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01-28-2013, 04:00 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
The current tax brings in approximately 2M/yr. as per an article on Friday.

http://www.globaltvedmonton.com/nort...541/story.html




This is a fraction of what the new surcharge must bring in.
You're misreading Replacement. That 2 million that Northlands gets is only part of the total, and was used for maintenance of the building.

Quote:
During negotiations, the Katz Group dropped its demand for a non-compete clause to shut Northlands out of the concert business. But in exchange, the city agreed to enforce the same ticket tax on both arenas, about seven per cent. While the tax at the new downtown arena will go to paying off $125 million in debt and covering $1.5 million in annual capital maintenance, tax from Rexall Place will go directly to the city’s general operating funds.
Here's a quote that you missed..(sorry ignored) the last time i showed it to you:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
We're not talking ticketmaster here we're talking ticket tax. The one allegedly funding 125M of the building price. Not sure if we're on the same page here.
I'm not talking ticketmaster either lol..

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...monton-public/

Quote:
In 1998 Pocklington hatched a plan to move the struggling Oilers to Houston.
The NHL franchise was only saved when a group of local investors, Cal Nichols and the EIG, stepped up to buy the team, then worked out a new lease deal with the city on extremely favourable terms.
The new deal saw the EIG pay $1 per year for rent (plus about a million per year to Northlands for game expenses). At the same time, the EIG got to keep the ticket tax collected at Oilers games, which now amounts to about $4 million dollars a year. This money goes straight into the Katz Group’s coffers.
2 Million a year huh? So the ticket tax in 2012 is making less than in 2007? Notice the bolded italics? I'm assuming that's where Northlands was getting the $2 million a year from - paid by the ticket tax.

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01-28-2013, 04:15 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Booya42 View Post
You're misreading Replacement. That 2 million that Northlands gets is only part of the total, and was used for maintenance of the building.



Here's a quote that you missed..(sorry ignored) the last time i showed it to you:


2 Million a year huh? So the ticket tax in 2012 is making less than in 2007? Notice the bolded italics? I'm assuming that's where Northlands was getting the $2 million a year from - paid by the ticket tax.
If I "ignored" anything its because its a Staples article. But even having wasted minutes of my life reading that I fail to see the conclusions or information you are stating above.

Plus, and Staples has a bad habit of this, the citation is unclear, where Staples is getting info from is unclear, and what is actually being stated is unclear.

As for misreading you are discombubulating yourself. The first quote is clearly about the city invoking the same ticket surcharge at Rexall, as will alledgedly occur at the new arena. The word "SAme" here is denoting same in both arenas going forward. Not same as in same as its always been.

In anycase your siding with an old Staples article vs an article last week?


Last edited by Replacement: 01-28-2013 at 04:20 PM.
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01-28-2013, 04:31 PM
  #281
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I still don't understand the grief laid on about the ticket tax. That's a win for the city and a loss for Katz.

He's going to charge whatever the public will bear for ticket prices. Concerts, Hockey games, any event.

When they decide the price of the ticket it will be the total price including surcharges and taxes. Take out the ticket tax and it just puts extra profits into Katz's pocket.

If ticket prices are your problem then blame your fellow Edmontonians for paying them. Not Katz or the city for charging them.

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01-28-2013, 04:34 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
If I "ignored" anything its because its a Staples article. But even having wasted minutes of my life reading that I fail to see the conclusions or information you are stating above.

Plus, and Staples has a bad habit of this, the citation is unclear, where Staples is getting info from is unclear, and what is actually being stated is unclear.

As for misreading you are discombubulating yourself. The first quote is clearly about the city invoking the same ticket surcharge at Rexall, as will alledgedly occur at the new arena. The word "SAme" here is denoting same in both arenas going forward. Not same as in same as its always been.

In anycase your siding with an old Staples article vs an article last week?
Wow Replacement...are you sure you're Oilers fan? I thought anyone past a certain age would remember 'Ol Peter Pucks tactics:

Is the Financial Post good enough for you? Google is amazing if you care to put in 20 seconds worth of effort. The article is even from Mark Milke to boot!

http://opinion.financialpost.com/201...ena-shakedown/

Quote:
Back in 1994, Edmonton city council agreed to a demand from then Oilers owner Peter Pocklington that a ticket tax be imposed on all events in that city’s coliseum. That money was then forwarded to Pocklington’s operations to help pay the Oilers’ annual rent at the then Northlands Coliseum.

In 1998, new team owners asked Edmonton to forgive that annual rent altogether and with this catch: They still wanted all ticket tax proceeds that came from Oilers’ ticket sales. Edmonton city council said “yes.”
How about an article by good old Paula Simons? Not a blog mind you, but another good 'ol honest article.

http://www2.canada.com/edmontonjourn...892bb1ba77&p=2

Quote:
The city already collects a seven-per-cent tax on tickets sold at Rexall Place. The tax was first cooked up in 1994 as an inducement for then-Oilers owner Peter Pocklington, who was threatening to move the team. Today, the ticket levy generates about $7 million a year. Of that, roughly $3 million is given over to Northlands, while the other $4 million goes as a soft subsidy to the Oilers
So who's discombubulating here? Do you really think Staples is just making that stuff up? I guess by your thought process, Mark Milke and Paula Simons are just plain hacks creating figures out of thin air?

Are you going to continue with the ad hominem argument, or just realize the facts?


Last edited by Booya42: 01-28-2013 at 04:50 PM.
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Old
01-28-2013, 04:36 PM
  #283
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Replacement, you don't go to games any more. Why do you care so much about a ticket tax you will not be paying?

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01-28-2013, 06:25 PM
  #284
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Replacement, you don't go to games any more. Why do you care so much about a ticket tax you will not be paying?
On behalf of a majority of the public that are funding this arena and that didn't want public funding of this arena involved and a majority that won't end up making use of a facility with exorbitant ticket prices.

The city even at current count is fronting over .6Billion for this endeavor. At a time where the provincial govt is met with horrendous forecasts and downscaled revenue and where the local economy could be in some trouble by the time this arena is built.

Lets go back a bit. In the 90's people weren't willing to spend anything to go to an Oiler game and thousands of tickets were unsold.

So if that happens again how much of this arena is the public really left paying for?

Aside from that basic opposition at least a ticket surcharge is userpay which is at least acceptable provided people will pay it. If not guess where the money is coming from?

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01-28-2013, 06:27 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Booya42 View Post
Wow Replacement...are you sure you're Oilers fan? I thought anyone past a certain age would remember 'Ol Peter Pucks tactics:

Is the Financial Post good enough for you? Google is amazing if you care to put in 20 seconds worth of effort. The article is even from Mark Milke to boot!

http://opinion.financialpost.com/201...ena-shakedown/



How about an article by good old Paula Simons? Not a blog mind you, but another good 'ol honest article.

http://www2.canada.com/edmontonjourn...892bb1ba77&p=2



So who's discombubulating here? Do you really think Staples is just making that stuff up? I guess by your thought process, Mark Milke and Paula Simons are just plain hacks creating figures out of thin air?

Are you going to continue with the ad hominem argument, or just realize the facts?
OK, seems like I'm confused on that and wrong. Good job, I'm wrong. Surrender. My apologies.

Hopefully the Oilers fare better in the game tonight then I am on this topic.

Trouble is at may age you forget more than you knew.. I probably even read that PS article before.

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01-28-2013, 08:39 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
OK, seems like I'm confused on that and wrong. Good job, I'm wrong. Surrender. My apologies.

Hopefully the Oilers fare better in the game tonight then I am on this topic.

Trouble is at may age you forget more than you knew.. I probably even read that PS article before.
You are a stubborn fan Replacement, but it's one of your positives -even when i disagree with you. I figured for sure you would have recognized the P Simons article.

Thank you for the acknowledgement, as much as it probably p'd you off. Look at it this way - it looks like the Katz group AND the city are getting a 7% ticket tax each - Katz from the new arena and the city from Northlands. Some might say that's a win win, as it means more money for the city (hopefully in the long run anyways).


Last edited by Booya42: 01-28-2013 at 08:51 PM.
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Old
03-20-2013, 06:51 PM
  #287
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Here's the monthly "No direct provincial funding for the arena" comment/column.

http://www.globaltvedmonton.com/redf...527/story.html

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03-20-2013, 07:19 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
Here's the monthly "No direct provincial funding for the arena" comment/column.

http://www.globaltvedmonton.com/redf...527/story.html
First time I have ever taken something Danielle Smith has said seriously. But I never did think that there was going to be additional money for the rink specifically. It can only come out of the infrastructure money, which would take a significant hit. Good for the govt. not give it to them in this economy.

Katz step up, start by hiring a serious mgmt group to run the club as you're going to need the playoff dates.

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03-20-2013, 07:20 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
On behalf of a majority of the public that are funding this arena and that didn't want public funding of this arena involved and a majority that won't end up making use of a facility with exorbitant ticket prices.

The city even at current count is fronting over .6Billion for this endeavor. At a time where the provincial govt is met with horrendous forecasts and downscaled revenue and where the local economy could be in some trouble by the time this arena is built.

Lets go back a bit. In the 90's people weren't willing to spend anything to go to an Oiler game and thousands of tickets were unsold.

So if that happens again how much of this arena is the public really left paying for?

Aside from that basic opposition at least a ticket surcharge is userpay which is at least acceptable provided people will pay it. If not guess where the money is coming from?
The fact that Alberta is losing money has nothing to do with cities wanting things that make them more akin to other cities like them in North America. What it has to do with is a total mismanagement of our natural resources. They let everything go off to private companies and get crappy royalties in return. Why do you think the oil companies aren't all over Saskatchewan right now? Because the government and the local tribes want a lot more of the pie then Alberta is getting.

Not to mention most of the government services are overmanged beyond belief. Too many advisors, assistant managers, assistant vice presidents of various things that have very little in the way of a workload for a fairly hefty sum of money.

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03-20-2013, 09:18 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
Here's the monthly "No direct provincial funding for the arena" comment/column.

http://www.globaltvedmonton.com/redf...527/story.html
So I don't know anything about Alberta politics but how can she Indirectly fund the arena?

Her goal is clearly tell Alberta, see I didn't waste money on an Arena, while coming to Edmonton and going see I helped set up a situation where you got your money anyway.

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03-20-2013, 09:38 PM
  #291
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nvm too political

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03-21-2013, 01:35 AM
  #292
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Ok so for those of us that don't follow every detail of this saga on an ongoing basis... is there any resolution to this in sight?

Any idea of a rough estimate of when the first shovel will be sunk in the ground? ... ie fall 2014, summer 2015 etc?

Or does no one really have any clue and it's still all 100% guesswork at this stage?


edit ... nevermind...

Wikipedia to my rescue... apparently sometime in Summer of 2013 they are to break ground.

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03-21-2013, 01:37 AM
  #293
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Originally Posted by nexttothemoon View Post
Ok so for those of us that don't follow every detail of this saga on an ongoing basis... is there any resolution to this in sight?

Any idea of a rough estimate of when the first shovel will be sunk in the ground? ... ie fall 2014, summer 2015 etc?

Or does no one really have any clue and it's still all 100% guesswork at this stage?
The shovels are supposed to be in the ground this summer barring another meltdown from Katz and/or city council. Mandel didn't seem too flustered by Redford's latest *cough* emphatic "No direct money" comment today.

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03-21-2013, 01:43 AM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
The shovels are supposed to be in the ground this summer barring another meltdown from Katz and/or city council. Mandel didn't seem too flustered by Redford's latest *cough* emphatic "No direct money" comment today.
Ya, I guess I was just remembering that a deal was made and then also hearing no money is coming directly from the AB govt... so I wondered if there was a change in plans and something that was looking positive was looking negative once again.

Of course as you say... that still could happen, especially when politics is involved.

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03-21-2013, 01:47 AM
  #295
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Ya, I guess I was just remembering that a deal was made and then also hearing no money is coming directly from the AB govt... so I wondered if there was a change in plans and something that was looking positive was looking negative once again.

Of course as you say... that still could happen, especially when politics is involved.
I don't blame you for being concerned. I still am. That said, Redford has been making these emphatic statements on a monthly basis and that didn't stop The Katz Group and council from signing on the dotted line in January. I'm pretty sure that she made the same statement the week of the agreement.

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03-21-2013, 01:58 AM
  #296
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Originally Posted by nexttothemoon View Post
Ya, I guess I was just remembering that a deal was made and then also hearing no money is coming directly from the AB govt... so I wondered if there was a change in plans and something that was looking positive was looking negative once again.

Of course as you say... that still could happen, especially when politics is involved.
After the election funding contribution scandal the chances are slim and none that Katz gets any direct Alberta Govt funding for his Taj Mahal. Add in to that the deficit situation the govt is in and it is more likely that Krueger wins the Adams and Dubnyk wins the Vezina than it is that the Redford govt would be providing any direct funding.

Now if Katz had been astute enough to hire a relative of the esteemed Premier, the money would already be in the bank.

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03-21-2013, 08:30 AM
  #297
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We don't really need all the money this year anyway, do we? Yes it's not smart to have a plan in place but I can see them going forward and getting funds at a later date.

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03-21-2013, 01:28 PM
  #298
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Even though reford says she won't give direct funding, thats exactly that. "Direct".

Meanwhile, the guy in charge of finances, Horner, keeps implying that its possible to fund the arena. It's probably going to be a backdoor funding where only edmonton and calgary gets funding for, like that big city charter thingy.

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03-22-2013, 06:36 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by fysloc View Post
Even though reford says she won't give direct funding, thats exactly that. "Direct".

Meanwhile, the guy in charge of finances, Horner, keeps implying that its possible to fund the arena. It's probably going to be a backdoor funding where only edmonton and calgary gets funding for, like that big city charter thingy.
The feds just allocated a ton of cash for infrastructure funding in the budget. Something tells me that the remaining cash needed will come from that.

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03-22-2013, 07:11 PM
  #300
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Maybe they'll just get tax breaks....

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