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Old
03-20-2013, 11:57 PM
  #76
Benny FTW
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I dont understand how Ottawa benefits at all from Briere.

Ottawa is rebuilding/retooling.

Ottawa is winning by letting the rookies/youth play. Why change that?

Briere is on pace for 39 points in 78 games. He has another 2 years left.

If im Murray, I dont go near Briere.

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Old
03-21-2013, 12:06 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
I don't see how my offers were a joke. Our fans obviously are just off on how we value the other teams' players. I place a lot of value in Wiercioch and Cowen I'm just speaking to the organizational need for another top end offensive forward like Simmonds or Voracek -- I thought Philly had plenty of offence up front and were lacking in net/on the back-end. It was by no means a joke or an insult to offer what I did.



Except I didn't mention Read in this topic...the Philly fans did. I made this topic asking about Voracek and Simmonds.
The proposals are a joke because you offer weircioch, bishop and a 3rd for Voracek and claim that it's good value, then you go on to claim disrespect and that we undervalue YOUR players?

You don't see the contradiction there?

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Old
03-21-2013, 12:12 AM
  #78
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My mistake. Thought someone said he was a UFA...just looked up his contract. Still don't see Briere coming here.

Also I obviously value defencemen and goalies higher than you do. Wiercioch and Bishop are both legit. However I agree that might be a bit back in value. Something might have to be added, but I was more referring to the Cowen deal is probably better value...but I don't know. Wiercioch has a lot of potential and is putting up a 40+ point pace as a rookie with limited time and his best offensive players injured.

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Old
03-21-2013, 12:41 AM
  #79
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People need to pump the brakes on Bishop. He was traded for a 2nd and since then, he's played 20 NHL games with varying degrees of success. He's now 26 years old. The idea of him being a centerpiece for Simmonds or Voracek is laughable.

Ditto Wiercioch. He's a 2nd round pick who's been mediocre in lower levels and all of the sudden because he's had 5 points in his last 3 games while playing the easiest minutes on the Senators, he's supposed to be a headliner in a trade for a power forward who has potted 28 goals and is on pace for a 30-30 season this year or a dynamic #1 RW who's been a point per game over his last 56 games.

Including Cowen makes the offers a little bit better, but if the best you can offer is a 2009 draftee who was OK @ the NHL level then sustained a serious hip injury that he's yet to come back from, then it's still not really that close.

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03-21-2013, 01:51 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
People need to pump the brakes on Bishop. He was traded for a 2nd and since then, he's played 20 NHL games with varying degrees of success. He's now 26 years old. The idea of him being a centerpiece for Simmonds or Voracek is laughable.

Ditto Wiercioch. He's a 2nd round pick who's been mediocre in lower levels and all of the sudden because he's had 5 points in his last 3 games while playing the easiest minutes on the Senators, he's supposed to be a headliner in a trade for a power forward who has potted 28 goals and is on pace for a 30-30 season this year or a dynamic #1 RW who's been a point per game over his last 56 games.

Including Cowen makes the offers a little bit better, but if the best you can offer is a 2009 draftee who was OK @ the NHL level then sustained a serious hip injury that he's yet to come back from, then it's still not really that close.
Agreed.

Most Sens fans understand that Bishop's value is around a "2nd rounder + prospect", or "3rd rounder + forward with some offensive upside".

Making him the centerpiece around a Voracek or Simmonds deal is laughably lopsided in Ottawa's favor. It's like saying a 2nd rounder and Stephane DaCosta would be the centerpiece for Voracek. Absolutely ridiculous. Flyers fans have every right to point and laugh.

Wiercioch I think is far too unproven to be the centerpiece for an established guy like Voracek. He COULD be a great player, sure, but if you're moving a proven 1st line threat like Voracek, Wiercioch is an "add on" guy, not a main guy. He's the "plus".

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Old
03-21-2013, 01:52 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
People need to pump the brakes on Bishop. He was traded for a 2nd and since then, he's played 20 NHL games with varying degrees of success. He's now 26 years old. The idea of him being a centerpiece for Simmonds or Voracek is laughable.

Ditto Wiercioch. He's a 2nd round pick who's been mediocre in lower levels and all of the sudden because he's had 5 points in his last 3 games while playing the easiest minutes on the Senators, he's supposed to be a headliner in a trade for a power forward who has potted 28 goals and is on pace for a 30-30 season this year or a dynamic #1 RW who's been a point per game over his last 56 games.

Including Cowen makes the offers a little bit better, but if the best you can offer is a 2009 draftee who was OK @ the NHL level then sustained a serious hip injury that he's yet to come back from, then it's still not really that close.
Stopped reading at bolded. You have no idea what your talking about.

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03-21-2013, 01:56 AM
  #82
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Ottawa should just wait till Philly draft a few more promising young forwards

and they get bored with the ones they have now

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Old
03-21-2013, 01:57 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Stopped reading at bolded. You have no idea what your talking about.
He's exaggerating somewhat, but he's not that far off.

Wier wasn't even a very good AHLer until this year. 2012-13 Wiercioch and 2010-12 Wiercioch are very different players.

I love the gains Wier's made in his game this year, and I'm a fan, but he's not a guy other teams are going to value as much as we do until he can prove that what he's doing right now isn't just lightning-in-a-bottle. I think other teams need a bigger sample size before they bite on Wiercioch at the price some of my fellow Sens fans are suggesting in this thread.

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03-21-2013, 02:20 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
He's exaggerating somewhat, but he's not that far off.

Wier wasn't even a very good AHLer until this year. 2012-13 Wiercioch and 2010-12 Wiercioch are very different players.

I love the gains Wier's made in his game this year, and I'm a fan, but he's not a guy other teams are going to value as much as we do until he can prove that what he's doing right now isn't just lightning-in-a-bottle. I think other teams need a bigger sample size before they bite on Wiercioch at the price some of my fellow Sens fans are suggesting in this thread.
I get the want for a bigger sample size. I mainly meant the mediocre part.

Wiercioch has only had 2 mediocre seasons since being drafted. His first AHL season, which was an adjustment season; and his 2nd AHL season was OK but he had a serious injury.

Also, he called him a 2nd rounder as if it matters.

I am in no way saying Wiercioch should be a center piece for Voracek.

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Old
03-21-2013, 02:51 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
I dont understand how Ottawa benefits at all from Briere.

Ottawa is rebuilding/retooling.

Briere is on pace for 39 points in 78 games. He has another 2 years left.
The good thing about those 2 years is actual salary is 3 & 2 million.

We will most likely not be a cap team during that time, and when we are, Briere will expire. The cap hit means nothing to us at all.

3 million is actually a very solid salary for a veteran wing putting up .5 ppg. Hes also not physical, nor does he rely on athleticism to score, meaning he has a few more productive years left.

And it's not like hes stunting anyone's development on the wing. We've had Erik stone hands Condra on the top line more than once this season.

Lets be honest…Bishop doesnt have room in our future plans. He serve his purpose last year and held the fort down, good...but Lehner is already better and like 4 years younger.

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Old
03-21-2013, 04:53 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpezDispenser View Post
For sure this. I highly doubt Cowen would be going anywhere and I'm starting to doubt Wiercioch is either.

Briere for Bishop + something small. Let's do it.

Briere has two years left at $6.5 million. This doesn't screw up your cap next year when Spezza and Karlsson are both back?

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03-21-2013, 07:22 AM
  #87
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Disclaimer :

Haven't read through the whole thread yet, but wanted to say this :

I wouldnt do either deal in the OP as a Sens fan, certainly not the one with Cowen.

Also, Cowen IS proven in the NHL. He has shown that he is (at least) a top 4 Dman, and has top pairing potential.

To Flyers fans saying they would want to see how Cowen plays when coming back from injury, that is certainly fair, and I completely understand that. However, if, when he comes back, he plays like a top 4 Dman (let alone if he plays like a top 2 Dman), he will cost a lot more to acquire than he would now, and he would cost a fair price as it is now. If he comes back and plays like a top 2 Dman, he likely doesn't move at all.

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Old
03-21-2013, 07:24 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Briere has two years left at $6.5 million. This doesn't screw up your cap next year when Spezza and Karlsson are both back?
It really doesn't.

It might not make sense from a need perspective, but OTT isn't a cap team, so the extra few million in cap number (rather than salary) wouldn't seem to be an issue.

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Old
03-21-2013, 07:34 AM
  #89
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To Flyers fans saying they would want to see how Cowen plays when coming back from injury, that is certainly fair, and I completely understand that. However, if, when he comes back, he plays like a top 4 Dman (let alone if he plays like a top 2 Dman), he will cost a lot more to acquire than he would now, and he would cost a fair price as it is now. If he comes back and plays like a top 2 Dman, he likely doesn't move at all.
What is a realistic comparable for Cowen's ceiling? Not his role, but a player whose game he is expected to emulate.

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Old
03-21-2013, 07:46 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
I dont understand how Ottawa benefits at all from Briere.

Ottawa is rebuilding/retooling.

Ottawa is winning by letting the rookies/youth play. Why change that?

Briere is on pace for 39 points in 78 games. He has another 2 years left.

If im Murray, I dont go near Briere.
It benefits Ottawa by ensuring they are deeply loved by the fans and management of Philadephia so much so that they will let the team lose in OT

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Old
03-21-2013, 08:04 AM
  #91
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Just catching up but what makes Vorachek and Simmonds so amazing?

Has either broken 50 points in a season? No they have not.

Both are having very good years this year, leading their team to a high draft pick next year while Bishop and Wiercioch are young players getting a lot of ice time on a team with a safe spot in the playoffs.

What makes Bishop and Wiercioch as a package laughable when compared to either?

----
Every time Ottawa fans attempts to seek a trade this year, this is the type of reaction we see (which I understand) but the Sens players must be better than they are perceived because the team is comfortably in the top third of the league without 5 top players. Eventually Ottawa will have to do something because there are more players than roster spots.

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03-21-2013, 08:15 AM
  #92
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What makes Bishop and Wiercioch as a package laughable when compared to either?
Just catching up here, but what makes Bishop and Wiercioch so amazing?

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Old
03-21-2013, 08:21 AM
  #93
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The Sens quite simply don't have room for Briere. Contracts aside, I'd rather ice any of Spezza, Turris, Zibanejad or Smith before him. That's 4 centres.

As for Wiercioch, ok you need a bigger sample size. That said, the talent has always been there and the Sens cannot just assume that his play is lightning in a bottle. What you see is what you get with Wier, until you don't see it anymore.

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Old
03-21-2013, 08:27 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by MoreGore View Post
Just catching up but what makes Vorachek and Simmonds so amazing?

Has either broken 50 points in a season? No they have not.

Both are having very good years this year, leading their team to a high draft pick next year while Bishop and Wiercioch are young players getting a lot of ice time on a team with a safe spot in the playoffs.

What makes Bishop and Wiercioch as a package laughable when compared to either?

----
Every time Ottawa fans attempts to seek a trade this year, this is the type of reaction we see (which I understand) but the Sens players must be better than they are perceived because the team is comfortably in the top third of the league without 5 top players. Eventually Ottawa will have to do something because there are more players than roster spots.
I can't speak to your (or other OTT fans other proposals), but fans generally aren't going to find common ground when discussing young NHL players / prospects swaps, an they are relatively rare in real life.

It is much more reasonable to discuss the value of players who are likely to be moved, or at least movable. From the Flyers, that list includes:

- Briere (if he waives his NMC, otherwise he will be bought out and a UFA)
- Mezsaros (signed 1 more year @ $4; has struggled with injuries and inconsistency, but has good tools; still young, but has seemingly burned bridges in OTT)
- Fedotenko (typical veteran rental; 4th liner and PK)
- Gagne (if he isn't going to re-sign--which is unknown).

Then there are guys who might be moved, but not likely at the cheap deadline price:
- Talbot (may or may not be available, depending on who you ask. Signed for 3 years at a good cap hit)
- Coburn (available, perhaps, with a plus for a better, more offensively gifted defenseman)
- Matt Read (still relatively young, very cheap, among the best values in the league, but uncertain future long-term. If the Flyers believe that they can resign him after next year, I doubt he is moved)

Asking about the Flyers young "core" players (Giroux, Voracek, Schenn, Schenn, Couturier, Simmonds) just isn't a productive exercise.

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03-21-2013, 08:31 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreGore View Post
Just catching up but what makes Vorachek and Simmonds so amazing?

Has either broken 50 points in a season? No they have not.

Both are having very good years this year, leading their team to a high draft pick next year while Bishop and Wiercioch are young players getting a lot of ice time on a team with a safe spot in the playoffs.

What makes Bishop and Wiercioch as a package laughable when compared to either?

----
Every time Ottawa fans attempts to seek a trade this year, this is the type of reaction we see (which I understand) but the Sens players must be better than they are perceived because the team is comfortably in the top third of the league without 5 top players. Eventually Ottawa will have to do something because there are more players than roster spots.
No but they both had 49 last year.
And now this year...one is at a PPG pace and the other is on a 60 point pace while adding a level of toughness that teams covet. If you really don't see their value, you should not be on here posting. Ask your own fans. They will tell you.

Bishop...26 years old...has 33 career games played....one game over .500
Weircioch...22 year old rookie...has 16 career games played.
Their sample size is so small and it's not jaw dropping. And they were 3rd and 2nd round picks so it's not like there are high expectations...like a Bernier for example.

Even if they both worked out to be very good players, their value would at best be only equal to Simmonds or Jake. Philly has no upside here...only risk. No deal.

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Old
03-21-2013, 08:33 AM
  #96
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Just catching up here, but what makes Bishop and Wiercioch so amazing?
LOL

Are you serious about Wiercioch? He's a rookie defenseman scoring over 0.5 points per game on one of the lowest scoring teams in the league. He's scoring as much as your precious Matt Read. He's 4th in team scoring. He's also 6'4 and his game has room to grow still. He's stud, and has been since being drafted.

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03-21-2013, 08:36 AM
  #97
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What is a realistic comparable for Cowen's ceiling? Not his role, but a player whose game he is expected to emulate.
Not sure who to compare him to, but he has really good skating for his size, uses his body well, will drop the gloves and instantly showed he is a 3-4 shutdown guy already eating 20-25 minutes as a rookie. He's shown some decent offense but if he could put it together more offensively next year he'll be a legit top pairing 2 way player.

Pros on the radio in Ottawa say he's our second best defenseman behind Karlsson, even though he hasn't played.

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03-21-2013, 08:37 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Voracek or no interest.
Why do all fans want the Flyers best players but are willing to give crap back. Propose a good trade that is fair for both sides. You want Voracek then start with either Lehner ++ or Erik Karlsson straight up. Voracek is our best player this year, and Simmonds is our second.

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03-21-2013, 08:38 AM
  #99
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LOL

Are you serious about Wiercioch? He's a rookie defenseman scoring over 0.5 points per game on one of the lowest scoring teams in the league. He's scoring as much as your precious Matt Read. He's 4th in team scoring. He's also 6'4 and his game has room to grow still. He's stud, and has been since being drafted.
Who are you actually interested in from the Flyers? I can't tell.

Obviously Voracek and Simmonds hold significantly more value than Wierioch, impressive recent play notwithstanding. I can't imagine you believe otherwise, and certainly most of your fellow Senators fans don't think so.

If you think Wierioch is better and holds more value than Read, I really can't figure out what you're trying to accomplish in the thread.

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Old
03-21-2013, 08:42 AM
  #100
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Q)Just catching up here, but what makes Bishop and Wiercioch so amazing?
A)Bishop and Wiercioch are Rookies stepping up chipping in to help the team that has quite a few injuries. With these two players, they helped Ottawa get to a playoff where as teams like Philli are not. Seeing your young guns preform well makes them amazing to Sens fans...they both compete every game.

Philli you got the same thing from Read last year.......Also

Bishop has played very well and has played about 20 less games than Bernier. With very simular numbers.

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