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Fedorov vs. Selanne

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Old
03-21-2013, 08:45 AM
  #451
Mulletman
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Does anybody else think that Selanne should get to play with Getzlaf for the rest of the season?

Seeing as Selanne is slowing down and starting to look his age, I think that Getzlaf is the player that is able to get the best production out of Teemu. Perry is talanted enough to play by himself, he doesn't need Getzlaf to make him look good. Perry showed that back in 2010-11 when he was playing without Getzlaf.

Koivu isn't a good fit for Selanne anymore and I think that Perry, Koivu and Ryan could make a great line. I know that Selanne has been playing with Getzlaf lately and the result hasn't been fantastic, but I feel that a couple of more games with Getzlaf might turn Teemu around. Too bad that isn't going to happen now that Perry returns...

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03-21-2013, 08:55 AM
  #452
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Funny that noone has posted a picture of what Selšnne's face looked like in the 2007 cuprun. Perhaps not the most crippling injury, but damn that is a playoff face.

Here's an article instead of nasty images: http://articles.latimes.com/2007/may...orts/sp-ducks3


ps. I think THAT goal against Detroit in the conference finals was what won the cup. The same Detroit that went to win a cup and into another final very shortly.

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03-21-2013, 11:58 AM
  #453
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
In 2007-08, the Wings had pretty significant injuries spread around the bottom six. Now, let's cut that down to a) bottom sixers by line played on; as well as b) specialty players (in other words, guys who have a specific skill set suited to PP or PK without being "top-six" special teams guys who play significant amounts on both units and/or ES).

Players who fit the bill: Holmstrom, Hudler, Cleary, Franzen, Kopecky, Draper, Maltby, Drake.

Total games missed by those eight forwards: 113
Total games played by those eight forwards: 543
Average games played by those eight forwards: 68.57
Total ESTOI by those eight forwards: 6036:04
Average ESTOI by those eight forwards: 11:07
Total PPTOI by those eight forwards: 895:15
Average PPTOI by those eight forwards: 1:39
Total SHTOI by those eight forwards: 731:07
Average SHTOI by those eight forwards: 1:35

Total games played by Detroit spare forwards: 128 (does not include ~5 games played by Meech at forward)
Total ESTOI by Detroit spare forwards: 521:19
Average ESTOI by Detroit spare forwards: 4:04
Total PPTOI by Detroit spare forwards: 3:40
Average PPTOI by Detroit spare forwards: 0:02
Total SHTOI by Detroit spare forwards: 4:49
Average SHTOI by Detroit spare forwards: 0:02

Average ESTOI between bottom sixer and spare: 7:03
Average PPTOI between bottom sixer and spare: 1:37
Average SHTOI between bottom sixer and spare: 1:33

That ice time has to go to somebody, right? I don't know that I agree with the premise that Dats and Z benefited hugely from bottom-six injuries to the point where they were propelled into being elite scorers because of it; both have proven themselves quite capable of scoring when in an offensive role - without needing any kind of boost in ice time. But the injuries were definitely there in 2007-08. Granted, including Hudler on the list is somewhat disingenuous as he missed one game (with the flu, IIRC).
I never tried to go to that extent. But between joining the Red Wings and '07/08, their production increased with icetime - to the point where they were ~80 point players by '06/07 as they went from 15->17->~19 minute players. Both guys healthy, playing together, and getting the extra bit of distributed icetime in '07/08, saw themselves jump up to the 90s - even in the Babcock system of risk-free, hard-working hockey. In '10/11 Zetterberg wasn't even that far off his previous paces in '08/09 and '09/10, but he stayed the healthiest of the big two, and had enough opportunity in Datsyuk's absence to enjoy a bit of a bump back up to PPG production (from consecutive 0.95s), and squeaked into an injury-depleted top 10 scoring list.

Mind you, I'm kind of fighting a two-pronged attack here. One, I'm submitting that Babcock's system prevents top end forwards from hitting "maximum offensive output", and affecting players when it comes to the type of peer comparisons we find on HF (ex: top 10 point finishes for "offensive" players). Secondly, faced with the argument that "well, Dats and Zetts have figured into the top 10 in scoring before, so what happened in other years?" an exploration of "in-house" opportunities/situation as well as league-wide scoring/injuries in '07/08 and '10/11 was necessary.

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03-21-2013, 04:33 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by Merya View Post
The same Detroit that went to win a cup and into another final very shortly.
lolno

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03-21-2013, 04:36 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
How did Coffey do in his other two-and-a-third-years in Detroit?

It seems like 1994-95 was some kind of "moment" for Coffey. I wouldn't be surprised if he was having knee issues not dissimilar from Selanne (I don't recall hearing anything of the sort, but he was much better that season in all aspect - not just offensively - than he was the season before or after). In fact, he hadn't been that good defensively since before the Pittsburgh Cup(s). But the following year, his back started to break down towards the end of it. He was 5th in Norris voting (sandwiched between Konstantinov and Lidstrom), but you could tell he was not going to last much longer. He was traded a day into the next season, and had maybe another one or two good seasons (he did see the 97 Finals from the other side, though).

But that's a big thing isn't it. The biggest criticism of Fedorov is "Yeah, but he was so much better when he had Coffey!" when that can be levied at Gretzky and even Lemieux to a degree as well. And with Selanne, you have Housley or Niedermayer/Pronger for many of his best years, and Kariya for the others. What did Selanne did without those players? Look unimpressive and useless in San Jose, and then go to Colorado and get outscored by Konowalchuk?
Who did selanne play with in 1998 when he was a hart candidate?

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03-21-2013, 05:41 PM
  #456
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Who did selanne play with in 1998 when he was a hart candidate?
A combination of Kariya (who scored 17 goals in his 22 games that season), Sandstrom, Rucchin, and maybe Young (on the PP or something)? Looking back at the score logs, just about any time Selanne had a big game, the other names implicated tended to be them, plus Daigneault and Mironov picking up the points from the back end. There was the night where Selanne, Kariya, and Mironov had 3, 4, and 5 points respectively, for example. In Selanne's only 4 point performance that season, Kariya had two assists, and Mironov one. Not guaranteeing all points were in the same scoring plays, just that these are the names appearing on the scoresheets in conspicuous games. I see a 3 assist night where Kariya, Mironov, Rucchin account for 3 of the team's 4 goals, for another example.

More from memory, though, in Kariya's absence it simply looked like 4 members of a 5 man unit pushing all the pucks toward Selanne, so I'm not surprised to see low point totals divided among essentially 4 other players in Kariya's absence. Selanne was pretty damn good that year, but the team actually fell from 2nd in the previous season to 6th in the division by the end of '97/98 regardless. Teemu has been scoring literally half (or fewer) the ES goals he got that year ever since, too, "unfortunately".

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03-21-2013, 09:30 PM
  #457
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
A combination of Kariya (who scored 17 goals in his 22 games that season), Sandstrom, Rucchin, and maybe Young (on the PP or something)? Looking back at the score logs, just about any time Selanne had a big game, the other names implicated tended to be them, plus Daigneault and Mironov picking up the points from the back end. There was the night where Selanne, Kariya, and Mironov had 3, 4, and 5 points respectively, for example. In Selanne's only 4 point performance that season, Kariya had two assists, and Mironov one. Not guaranteeing all points were in the same scoring plays, just that these are the names appearing on the scoresheets in conspicuous games. I see a 3 assist night where Kariya, Mironov, Rucchin account for 3 of the team's 4 goals, for another example.

More from memory, though, in Kariya's absence it simply looked like 4 members of a 5 man unit pushing all the pucks toward Selanne, so I'm not surprised to see low point totals divided among essentially 4 other players in Kariya's absence. Selanne was pretty damn good that year, but the team actually fell from 2nd in the previous season to 6th in the division by the end of '97/98 regardless. Teemu has been scoring literally half (or fewer) the ES goals he got that year ever since, too, "unfortunately".
Teemu was a 1 man show that year, you can word it differently to make it seem like he was scoring because of those sb-50 point scorers, but he was a 1 man show and thats why he got alot of hart votes.

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03-21-2013, 10:00 PM
  #458
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Teemu was a 1 man show that year, you can word it differently to make it seem like he was scoring because of those sb-50 point scorers, but he was a 1 man show and thats why he got alot of hart votes.
How was Selanne the one-man show different from Tony Amonte the one-man show?

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03-21-2013, 10:08 PM
  #459
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
How was Selanne the one-man show different from Tony Amonte the one-man show?
He finished 3rd in ppg and 1st in goals while being a one man show.

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03-21-2013, 10:41 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
He finished 3rd in ppg and 1st in goals while being a one man show.
In 22GP with Kariya, the stats were like this:

Kariya 17-14-31
Selanne 15-15-30

That means that without Kariya, Selanne's numbers looked like this:

51GP, 37-19-56

That's not nearly as impressive. If you put each of those stat lines over the 73 games Selanne played that year, it would look like this:

With Kariya: 50-50-100; 2nd GPG, 9th APG, 1st PPG (second if you count Kariya)

Without Kariya: 53-27-80; 1st GPG, 7th PPG

What makes that last line so much better than Bure or Palffy? Or Amonte, who I already mentioned? As evidenced by the stats I place before you, Kariya is worth a 25% increase in Selanne's total offense. How many elite, all-time great players play with someone capable of lifting their performance by that much?


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03-22-2013, 01:15 AM
  #461
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
In 22GP with Kariya, the stats were like this:

Kariya 17-14-31
Selanne 15-15-30

That means that without Kariya, Selanne's numbers looked like this:

51GP, 37-19-54

That's not nearly as impressive. If you put each of those stat lines over the 73 games Selanne played that year, it would look like this:

With Kariya: 50-50-100; 2nd GPG, 9th APG, 1st PPG (second if you count Kariya)

Without Kariya: 53-27-80; 1st GPG, 13th PPG

What makes that last line so much better than Bure or Palffy? Or Amonte, who I already mentioned? As evidenced by the stats I place before you, Kariya is worth a 25% increase in Selanne's total offense. How many elite, all-time great players play with someone capable of lifting their performance by that much?
Actually that would place him at 7th in ppg.

Is this all you do, cherry pick stats and make everything about someone playing with a linemate? Its getting a bit old. Selanne was the only guy to have a quality linemate over 20 games? What about Jagr playing with francis? Or Forsberg having sakic on pp, olozinsh and several other good players? Hull playing with turgeon? Lindros playing with leclair?

By the way, where are you getting your stats from? I could easily make stuff up, you have no source for your data? Fedorov dropped from 83 to 65 as soon as he was traded from detriot, and after the lock out his offense became a joke, maybe thats the real fedorov after all. Tell me your source and then I can look up how badly Coffey inflated Fedorov in 1995, and how much of an impact Shanahan-Hull-Lidstrom had on Fedorov in 2003. Without those players its probably another 65 point season of doom for Feds.

If Fedorov spent his whole career on a crappy team with no supporting cast at all, we wouldnt even be talking about him, his 100 point seasons would go out of the window. Your redundant 'linemates' argument is getting really old.

80 points in 73 games is 1.09 ppg, in 1998 Forsberg and Jagr were the only players with a ppg above 1.15. So yeah he would still be a top 3-7 point producer, not 13th, lol where did you get that crap from.

Your sitting here ripping Selanne for playing with Kariya for a 22 game sample size and whining about his puck moving defensman. How many seasons does fedorov have where he was even a top 15 scorer? 4 out of 18, lol this is the mighty all time legend?

I remember you were the same guy who downgraded Adam Oates's 1.88 ppg for 1991 because he got to play with Brett Hull. Exactly what would yzerman or fedorov's ppg be if they played with hull? 2.2 ppg, 2.3 ppg? LOL everything is about linemates with you isn't it?

Let me guess, Jean Ratelle only had that freak season in 1972 because of his linemates right. If your golden boys fedorov and yzerman played with the same linemates, they would have outscored phil esposito and taken the hart from Orr. I mean according to you, linemates stopped yzerman and fedorov from reaching immortality level.


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03-22-2013, 01:51 AM
  #462
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Actually that would place him at 7th in ppg.

Is this all you do, cherry pick stats and make everything about someone playing with a linemate? Its getting a bit old. Selanne was the only guy to have a quality linemate over 20 games? What about Jagr playing with francis? Or Forsberg having sakic on pp, olozinsh and several other good players? Hull playing with turgeon? Lindros playing with leclair?
How does Leclair/Lindros or any of that affect Fedorov vs. Selanne?

Quote:
By the way, where are you getting your stats from? I could easily make stuff up, you have no source for your data? Fedorov dropped from 83 to 65 as soon as he was traded from detriot, and after the lock out his offense became a joke, maybe thats the real fedorov after all.
www.hockeyreference.com

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80 points in 73 games is 1.09 ppg, in 1998 Forsberg and Jagr were the only players with a ppg above 1.15. So eah he would still be a top 3-7 point producer, not 13th, lol where did you get that crap from.
I typed 54 for his "without Kariya" stats when it should have been 56, and performed the PPG calculation based on 54/51.

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I remember you were the same guy who downgraded Adam Oates's 1.88 ppg for 1991 because he got to play with Brett Hull. Exactly what would yzerman or fedorov's ppg be if they played with hull? 2.2 ppg, 2.3 ppg? LOL everything is about linemates with you isn't it?
I personally think Oates was the better and more important player on those Blues teams.

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I mean according to you, linemates stopped yzerman and fedorov from reaching immortality level.
Fedorov's best linemate (Kozlov) has been established IN THIS THREAD as comparable to one of the worse linemates Selanne had over the years (Andy McDonald). Steve Yzerman scored over 150 points without having a teammate score 100. Only Gretzky and Lemieux have managed that (Nicholls had Gretzky, Esposito had Orr, etc.) and even those two only did it once each (despite clearing it many times). So yeah, I'd say having quality offensive players on the ice with you can definitely help your scoring output. In fact, Selanne's 1997-98 is a clear example of this.

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03-22-2013, 02:12 AM
  #463
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
How does Leclair/Lindros or any of that affect Fedorov vs. Selanne?



www.hockeyreference.com



I typed 54 for his "without Kariya" stats when it should have been 56, and performed the PPG calculation based on 54/51.



I personally think Oates was the better and more important player on those Blues teams.



Fedorov's best linemate (Kozlov) has been established IN THIS THREAD as comparable to one of the worse linemates Selanne had over the years (Andy McDonald). Steve Yzerman scored over 150 points without having a teammate score 100. Only Gretzky and Lemieux have managed that (Nicholls had Gretzky, Esposito had Orr, etc.) and even those two only did it once each (despite clearing it many times). So yeah, I'd say having quality offensive players on the ice with you can definitely help your scoring output. In fact, Selanne's 1997-98 is a clear example of this.
No, Selanne's 1998 is a clear example that if he has a decent linemate he can actually win the art ross. I mean who exactly is paul kariya in an all time sense anyways? Someone who had a few good years and then burnt out. Kariya's entire successful time frame as an NHLer was with Teemu.

Those other examples have an effect because you cherry picked kariya playing with selanne, but ignore everyone else's linemates. You bring up good points, its just unfortunate that you are choosing to cherrypick to win arguments.

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03-22-2013, 02:45 AM
  #464
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Actually that would place him at 7th in ppg.

Is this all you do, cherry pick stats and make everything about someone playing with a linemate? Its getting a bit old. Selanne was the only guy to have a quality linemate over 20 games?
If you're going to start off with a strawman like that, obviously no one is going to get anywhere. The question was, quite simply:

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Who did selanne play with in 1998 when he was a hart candidate?
You've gotten answers and explanations, work with them.

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03-22-2013, 02:58 AM
  #465
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If you're going to start off with a strawman like that, obviously no one is going to get anywhere. The question was, quite simply:



You've gotten answers and explanations, work with them.
No i dont need to work with an explanation that shows having 1 player score above 50 points is excellent supporting cast. Fedorov's supporting cast was much better.

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03-22-2013, 03:02 AM
  #466
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No i dont need to work with an explanation that shows having 1 player score above 50 points is excellent supporting cast. Fedorov's supporting cast was much better.
You DO, however, have to work with an explanation that shows that 30% of his production that year was tied to one of the very best among offensive players at the time, specifically, so it's not particularly important that it was over less than 20% of the season. That constitutes a more than suitable initial answer/starting point to your question as phrased.

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03-22-2013, 03:11 AM
  #467
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You DO, however, have to work with an explanation that shows that 30% of his production that year was tied to one of the very best among offensive players at the time, specifically, so it's not particularly important that it was over less than 20% of the season. That constitutes a more than suitable initial answer/starting point to your question as phrased.
How does that compare to the productions of jagr/forberg/lindros having quality teammates for an entire season. Its pretty desperate when people have to make claims to a player playing 22 games and steve rucchin. I mean we aren't comparing selanne to florida panthers bure, we are comparing him to someone who spent his whole career in detriot. Are you really going to take fedorov's accomplishments at face value and pretend playing in detroit didnt inflate his legacy?

It doesnt seem like the HOF mainstay posters aren't trying to defend fedorov in this thread at all, he's clearly been surpassed by Selanne on the all time lists. In 10 years, I have no doubt Selanne will be unanimously ranked above Fedorov.


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03-22-2013, 03:19 AM
  #468
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Is it just Selanne or both these guys that draw a lot of tension? I like passionate and well based arguing but frankly, i have not gotten too much out of this thread in few pages.

I am still on fence about which of these two has better case over another. Twisting and "mistyping" facts is not going to get us anywhere.

I don't see a drastic difference between linemates and both these players were of the caliber that they were cabable of producing no matter who was on the ice with them.

The difference is that Fedorov was put in almost exact opposite role as a forward than Selanne.

Selanne was high intensity high scoring winger. In which he was succesfull.

Fedorov had defensive resbonsibilities that Selanne never had, but he also had a significantly lower production in his career.

Maybe there is no answer to this question. Two too different kind of players, both great on their end.
Good thing that you guys do the next project about forwards as a position based.

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03-22-2013, 03:36 AM
  #469
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How does that compare to the productions of jagr/forberg/lindros having quality teammates for an entire season. Its pretty desperate when people have to make claims to a player playing 22 games and steve rucchin. I mean we aren't comparing selanne to florida panthers bure, we are comparing him to someone who spent his whole career in detriot. Are you really going to take fedorov's accomplishments at face value and pretend playing in detroit didnt inflate his legacy?
I think explorations of Kariya vs Recchi vs Leclair vs Hejduk/Tanguay are probably best left to a separate thread, but it's not even as simple as that. Everyone is giving credit for Selanne's productivity; especially given that he "should" have been easier to zero in on with lack of depth scoring distraction from defenders. But if the counter argument is raised that there's also a difference when the other 4 guys on the ice are a) doing most of the work getting the puck moving forward through the first half of the ice, and furthermore b) are forced to drive pucks through a particular player in order to generate any modicum of offense, it's possible that a resulting 86 point season - gap of 30+ points between the next guy on the team or not - might not so easily "top", say, a 68 point regular season followed up 19 playoff points and a Stanley Cup.

I mean, assuming that this is all about trying to count/compare/rank seasons between Selanne and Fedorov to begin with, of course. If you simply needed an explanation of how Selanne could have gotten 86 that year, I doubt Lindros/Forsberg/Jagr need have been brought up, right? Ultimately, teams with lack of depth, who ultimately performed poorly, have ended up with fairly disproportionate individual scoring totals elsewhere, I'm sure.

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It doesnt seem like the HOF mainstay posters are trying to defend fedorov in this thread at all, hes clearly been surpassed by Selanne on the all time lists. In 10 years, I have no doubt Selanne will be unanimously ranked above Fedorov.
Career value will always be "in the eye of the beholder", but we'll see how points weigh against championships and reputation of talent in the long run, I suppose. The HoF clearly favours the latter, but discussions around here certainly put more emphasis on exploration of the former. Both arenas value longevity, though, there can be no doubt about that, and Selanne has put his stamp on that one.

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03-22-2013, 10:46 AM
  #470
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No, Selanne's 1998 is a clear example that if he has a decent linemate he can actually win the art ross.
I'm going to disagree with this, actually. When they were in the lineup together, Kariya had the higher PPG. Selanne's PPG dropped with Kariya out of the lineup. Assuming that they both played all 82 games at the 22-game rate, here's what the stats would have looked like:

Kariya: 63-52-115
Selanne: 56-56-112

That doesn't look like an Art Ross-winning season from Selanne. It looks more like Kariya is the winner.

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I mean who exactly is paul kariya in an all time sense anyways? Someone who had a few good years and then burnt out. Kariya's entire successful time frame as an NHLer was with Teemu.
This paragraph tears a lot of your credibility down in this argument; Kariya was pretty clearly the better player of the two in the mid-late 90s. That is, until, his head was turned into mush by a Gary Suter cheap shot in that very same 1997-98 season.

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Those other examples have an effect because you cherry picked kariya playing with selanne, but ignore everyone else's linemates.
"everyone else" isn't the topic of the thread; Selanne and Fedorov are. I've posted significant information regarding the teammates and linemates of both players.

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You bring up good points, its just unfortunate that you are choosing to cherrypick to win arguments.
By cherry pick, I assume you mean "point out that Selanne scored at a far higher rate when playing with Kariya, who was generally considered the better player."

I can only hypothesize what Fedorov might have produced when playing with a linemate like Kariya. Actually, I don't have to imagine... I just have to watch old WJC footage of Mogilny/Fedorov/Bure. Mogilny/Bure is a combination that is eerily similar to Kariya/Selanne; and in 1997, when Fedorov held out I thought that - if he had been traded - he'd fit best in Anaheim between those two. Imagine THAT line? Kariya/Fedorov/Selanne? Detroit probably gets Rucchin, Mironov (they picked him up anyway), a couple firsts, and maybe one of Hebert or Shtalenkov (with Hodson going the other way). Glad we kept Sergei (wish we had kept him in 03) but that trade would have pre-killed all of this kind of talk. As would have Fedorov actually going to the Whalercanes.

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03-22-2013, 11:53 AM
  #471
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I don't know why you keep knocking on Kozlov, Eva. He was a premiere sniper. Fedorov should have definitely piled up more points playing with him during the regular season. For whatever reason, he didn't.

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03-22-2013, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I don't know why you keep knocking on Kozlov, Eva. He was a premiere sniper. Fedorov should have definitely piled up more points playing with him during the regular season. For whatever reason, he didn't.

Because unlike you, he is making dishonest arguments.

Every thread/post (just about) has been down playing Fedorov's linemates and up playing Selanne's linemates.

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03-22-2013, 12:32 PM
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Eva is not a "she"? O_o

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03-22-2013, 12:32 PM
  #474
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I don't know why you keep knocking on Kozlov, Eva. He was a premiere sniper. Fedorov should have definitely piled up more points playing with him during the regular season. For whatever reason, he didn't.
Having said that, he topped out at 34 goals, 73 points during Fedorov's 120 point Hart/Selke campaign, and 36 goals, 73 points in a year where Fedorov hit 107 points (bit of resurgence as a slightly more prominent player with the anything goes offensively Thrashers). I don't think Kozlov had the fitness to stay with Fedorov for every ES shift over the decade they played on the same team (first, I know we're not talking about the "husky" Viktor Kozlov-type fitness, and besides '97 when the "Russian Five" was famous, I can't even confirm how many years we saw Kozlov as a permanent mainstay on his wing, anyway). I mean, as far back as we have icetime figures for individuals, we can see Kozlov averaging 14/15/16 mins/game during seasons when Fedorov was averaging 19/20/21, so what percentage of their time was actually spent playing together, I wonder, outside of '97.

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03-22-2013, 01:22 PM
  #475
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I'm going to disagree with this, actually. When they were in the lineup together, Kariya had the higher PPG. Selanne's PPG dropped with Kariya out of the lineup. Assuming that they both played all 82 games at the 22-game rate, here's what the stats would have looked like:

Kariya: 63-52-115
Selanne: 56-56-112

That doesn't look like an Art Ross-winning season from Selanne. It looks more like Kariya is the winner.



This paragraph tears a lot of your credibility down in this argument; Kariya was pretty clearly the better player of the two in the mid-late 90s. That is, until, his head was turned into mush by a Gary Suter cheap shot in that very same 1997-98 season.



"everyone else" isn't the topic of the thread; Selanne and Fedorov are. I've posted significant information regarding the teammates and linemates of both players.



By cherry pick, I assume you mean "point out that Selanne scored at a far higher rate when playing with Kariya, who was generally considered the better player."

I can only hypothesize what Fedorov might have produced when playing with a linemate like Kariya. Actually, I don't have to imagine... I just have to watch old WJC footage of Mogilny/Fedorov/Bure. Mogilny/Bure is a combination that is eerily similar to Kariya/Selanne; and in 1997, when Fedorov held out I thought that - if he had been traded - he'd fit best in Anaheim between those two. Imagine THAT line? Kariya/Fedorov/Selanne? Detroit probably gets Rucchin, Mironov (they picked him up anyway), a couple firsts, and maybe one of Hebert or Shtalenkov (with Hodson going the other way). Glad we kept Sergei (wish we had kept him in 03) but that trade would have pre-killed all of this kind of talk. As would have Fedorov actually going to the Whalercanes.
So your just going to ignore that he had coffey from 94-96, then when he resurged in 2003 he had lidstrom, shanahan and hull. Gets traded and drops to 65 points, yup keep cherry picking. Your arguments for fedorov are all based on projections, keep thinking he's got jagr's offense if he wanted it. Selanne is going to be above Fedorov on most all time lists.

No you havent posted any significant information on how many points Fedorov scored in 1994-96 that were assisted or scored by yzerman/coffey, or his supporting cast in 2003. You choose to focus solely on selanne, hence why I am referring to your arguments as CHERRY PICKING.

Its pretty damn pathetic that you are relying on a 22 game sample to discredit selanne and help out the goldenboy. Either way, the hockey news that year was directly comparing selanne to jagr and he was a hart finalist. You can discredit selanne as much as you want, he blows Fedorov away in terms of scoring finishes and amount of elite quality seasons in general. But go on, rank fedorov with sakic/yzerman and completely overrate the guy like you've been doing this whole thread.

Why are you ignoring that in 1998 Selanne lead the league in even strength offense? Why are you ignoring the numbers of other players without thier supporting casts. I mean Jagr, forsberg, lindros, turgeon and modano had such horrible supporting casts right? Oh yeah because it buries your argument.


I also noticed you decided to not respond to the post that stated Fedorov's defensive game wasnt enough to consider him better than messier in 1992, naslund/thornton in 2003, or jagr/lindros in 1995. I find it funny that you simply choose to ignore that.


Last edited by ushvinder: 03-22-2013 at 01:38 PM.
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