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Old
03-21-2013, 09:33 AM
  #126
Jack de la Hoya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
MAK what would want from Philly for Methot?
I don't see Methot as a player that the Flyers would pursue at this point.

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03-21-2013, 09:34 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
I was under the impression you guys were looking for some offensive dmen

You guys have all the defensive d you need no (Coburn, Schenn etc..)?
Yeah, we have defensive d-men to spare, but what we really need is a mobile PMD. Some who can really push the pace, particularly on the offense.

Wiercioch is an offensive defenseman, but he's not the most mobile guy in the world. Mobility is what is really becoming a problem for this defense. Luke Schenn is much better than he was in Toronto after losing all that weight this summer, but nobody is ever going to confuse him for a mobile defenseman. Grossmann is in the same mindset. Coburn is one of the more mobile defensemen in the NHL but can't really move the puck,

In fact, none of the three can move the puck. That's becoming the serious issue in Philadelphia.

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03-21-2013, 09:36 AM
  #128
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Why dont Sens fans go after players Philly might have a desire of trading. ie (not named Voracek, Couturier, Giroux, Simmonds).

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03-21-2013, 09:38 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
To be fair, Bishop + Wierioch is a pretty poor framework for Simmonds and an absurd starting point for Voracek. The OP didn't get this thread off to a great start, and it has sort of been a constant challenge to keep it from going completely off the rails.

Some Flyers fans would accept Bishop + Wierioch for Read, others would hate that deal, and obviously Simmonds and Voracek are viewed as more valuable pieces than Read.
It's really not that absurd when you consider the players involved and what they've done to this point. Up to this year Voracek never put up more than 50 points...you're asking for a larger sample size from Wiercioch (same for Bishop) but taking Voracek just at what he is doing this season as though he's been an all-star his entire career.

Flyer fans might be 'split' on the value of Bishop and Wiercioch for Read but Ottawa fans are not. It's an unequivocal no...Read is not nearly worth those two to us.

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
To be honest, Wiercioch is not the kind of defenseman the Flyers need at this point, but he would help.
I keep getting conflicting information from Philadelphia fans then. When I've offered defensive defencemen they say they need offence from the back-end, and when I offer a very bright young offensive defenceman I am told he isn't what they need either.

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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
On that we can agree.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that you want to start a discussion about team success since 1992.
Why not? Ottawa has been one of the more successful teams in the league outside of their inaugural season and a few of the following...once they became established they've been a more successful team than say Philadelphia.

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Seriously...I'm ****ing dumbfounded by that notion. Wiercioch is not better than Luke Schenn.
I can comfortably say having watched a ton of Luke Schenn and all of Wiercioch's games in the NHL (including those before this year) that Wiercioch has played better in the NHL than Schenn has. I believe this is a trend that will continue.


Last edited by Curtinho: 03-21-2013 at 09:50 AM. Reason: typo
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Old
03-21-2013, 09:39 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
If Wiercioch was on Philly, he'd be on the 3rd pair, and on the 1st PP. He's an offensive dman who is almost 6'5'' and has not filled out his frame. He's a project and developing very well but has a long way to go before netting valuable pieces in a trade.
Thank you for the honest report on him. I could see him and Bishop for Read....in the offseason once Ottawa gets Karlsson and Cowen back.

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03-21-2013, 09:39 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
I don't see Methot as a player that the Flyers would pursue at this point.
I think he was poking fun because MAK believed that Methot was no more than a 6th or 7th defenceman IIRC.

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03-21-2013, 09:40 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
I keep getting conflicting information from Philadelphia fans then. When I've offered defensive defencemen they say they need offence from the back-end, and when I offer a very bright young offensive defenceman I am told he isn't what they need either.
Mobility and offense.

Wiercioch helps move toward a solution. He is not the solution.

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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
I can comfortably say having watched a ton of Luke Schenn and all of Wiercioch's games in the NHL (including those before this year) that Wiercioch has played better in the NHL than Schenn has. I believe this is a trend that will continue.
We'll agree to disagree. I don't even come remotely close to seeing that, particularly 22 games in from Wiercioch.

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03-21-2013, 09:41 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by SenzZen View Post
Let me just address a couple of things to try and help this "discussion".

To those Flyer fans who were upset at the notion that OP was making a joke with this thread- I assure you: he is not joking. In all the encounters I've had with him, and the countless other posts I've read of his I've never once come across anything that even remotely resembles humour. He's serious. Serious as a heart attack, or Asperger's.

Wiercioch is someone I would be reluctant to trade- but I personally believe in developing your own rather swapping to address needs. I know that trades will sometimes really turn the tides in a team's favour, but I've never seen it happen with my team, and that's the constant I'm concerned with.

Having said all that, I completely understand your reluctance to part with Simmonds and Voracek. They are great players, and I hope you understand a Sens fan coveting them.
Part of the reluctance to trade those guys comes from the fact that there's very little to replace them from within the system. Our prospect wing depth is pretty much a joke due to Homer constantly trading picks/prospects over the last 3-4 years, so filling one hole by moving a Simmonds/Voracek just opens up another that's unlikely to be filled anytime soon. Most Flyer fans would be very open to moving a winger if it meant solving some of the puck moving issues on the defense, but there's no one fill that winger's spot.

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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Read. I think that's pretty fair though Philly may not need that kind of player
The Flyers don't need another stay at home type that provides very little offense. We already have L. Schenn, Grossman, and Coburn that fill that role.

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Old
03-21-2013, 09:44 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
It's really not that absurd when you consider the players involved and what they've done to this point. Up to this year Voracek never put up more than 30 points...you're asking for a larger sample size from Wiercioch (same for Bishop) but taking Voracek just at what he is doing this season as though he's been an all-star his entire career.

This is just flat out wrong factually. You need to do your stat check again.

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03-21-2013, 09:45 AM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
It's really not that absurd when you consider the players involved and what they've done to this point. Up to this year Voracek never put up more than 30 points...you're asking for a larger sample size from Wiercioch (same for Bishop) but taking Voracek just at what he is doing this season as though he's been an all-star his entire career.
I'm confused. Did you intend to say that he had never put up less than 30 points?

Quote:
Season Team GP G A P
2008-2009 Blue Jackets 80 9 29 38
2009-2010 Blue Jackets 81 16 34 50
2010-2011 Blue Jackets 80 14 32 46
2011-2012 Flyers 78 18 31 49
2012-2013 Flyers 30 13 18 31
Voracek is one year older than Wiercioch. He's played in 350 NHL games and potted over 200 points.

I'm trying, but I really have no idea what you are talking about.

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03-21-2013, 09:47 AM
  #136
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So you don't think Weiricoch could become a mobile dman?

I'm no expert but I think he could

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03-21-2013, 09:48 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post



I keep getting conflicting information from Philadelphia fans then. When I've offered defensive defencemen they say they need offence from the back-end, and when I offer a very bright young offensive defenceman I am told he isn't what they need either.



Why not? Ottawa has been one of the more successful teams in the league outside of their inaugural season and a few of the following...once they became established they've been a more successful team than say Philadelphia.



I can comfortably say having watched a ton of Luke Schenn and all of Wiercioch's games in the NHL (including those before this year) that Wiercioch has played better in the NHL than Schenn has. I believe this is a trend that will continue.
The Flyers really need a number one puck moving defenseman to tell you the truth. If they got that, everyone would move back into a role they're more suited for.

Ottawa has not been a more successful franchise since a season or two after their inaugural season. Overall record, playoff success, stanley cup finals appearances would all show that.

To each his own. Wiercioch will probably always put up more points than Schenn, but Schenn is one of the most punishing players in the league to play against. He's evolving into a very good shutdown guy for the Flyers after he got out of the hell hole of Toronto.

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03-21-2013, 09:49 AM
  #138
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I actually meant to say 50 I don't know why it came out as 30.

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03-21-2013, 09:50 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Part of the reluctance to trade those guys comes from the fact that there's very little to replace them from within the system. Our prospect wing depth is pretty much a joke due to Homer constantly trading picks/prospects over the last 3-4 years, so filling one hole by moving a Simmonds/Voracek just opens up another that's unlikely to be filled anytime soon. Most Flyer fans would be very open to moving a winger if it meant solving some of the puck moving issues on the defense, but there's no one fill that winger's spot.
Believe me buddy I get where you are coming from. I've suggested that fellow Sens fans take their proposals to the main board to see what would happen there, I thought the sarcasm emoticon spoke for itself.

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03-21-2013, 09:51 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Just catching up here, but what makes Bishop and Wiercioch so amazing?
Same thing that makes Simmons and Voracek amazing I suppose.

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03-21-2013, 09:54 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by SenzZen View Post
Believe me buddy I get where you are coming from. I've suggested that fellow Sens fans take their proposals to the main board to see what would happen there, I thought the sarcasm emoticon spoke for itself.
Haha, I'm just trying to have some conversation and clear up any misconceptions, that's all. I actually think there could be a move between these teams, it's just that the Flyers hands are tied because most of their NHL talent is currently on the NHL roster. They have pretty much no one at the AHL level that could step into the NHL and thrive at this time. (Outside of McGinn who will be back on the NHL roster like he was before he got hurt)

edit: Just read that post. Haha...

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Old
03-21-2013, 09:55 AM
  #142
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Anyway I'd asked for this to be closed multiple times. It seems like it's very hard to come to an agreement (for any teams) on value of each other's players. Each team generally seems to value their own players higher than the posters from the other teams that they are talking to so this discussion seems a bit moot.

I put a lot of value in a young, massive goalie putting up top 15 stats and a 40 point pretty mobile large offensive defenceman that is a rookie. I also put value in the Flyers' players which is why I made the thread, but in any case this discussion seems to be devolving into trying to discredit or push players above others and it just seems pointless to continue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
I'm confused. Did you intend to say that he had never put up less than 30 points?
Nah...typo, not sure how I got 30 when I had his stat sheet open. It was meant to read 50.

Quote:
Voracek is one year older than Wiercioch. He's played in 350 NHL games and potted over 200 points.

I'm trying, but I really have no idea what you are talking about.
Well to be fair Wiercioch is a big, lanky guy who has had some hiccups and is also a defenceman and in general they take a bit longer to develop. I understand though I'm not just saying Wiercioch for Voracek or anything like that -- I do put a lot of value in Bishop as well. I understand not wanting to do it though I just don't agree with people devaluing Ottawa's players to need to hold value for their own.

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03-21-2013, 09:57 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by MoreGore View Post
Same thing that makes Simmons and Voracek amazing I suppose.


I'm rapidly losing faith in this thread.

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03-21-2013, 10:01 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
Anyway I'd asked for this to be closed multiple times. It seems like it's very hard to come to an agreement (for any teams) on value of each other's players. Each team generally seems to value their own players higher than the posters from the other teams that they are talking to so this discussion seems a bit moot.

I put a lot of value in a young, massive goalie putting up top 15 stats and a 40 point pretty mobile large offensive defenceman that is a rookie. I also put value in the Flyers' players which is why I made the thread, but in any case this discussion seems to be devolving into trying to discredit or push players above others and it just seems pointless to continue.
You need to accept that Voracek isnt going anywhere. The legit top line player tag on Voracek is premature by most of their fanbase, but he is a player they would be insane to trade at this point. These really young guys that score almost 30 goals(Simmonds) in a season or get close to PPG are very hard to get.

Bishop still hasn't been a starter for an extended period in the NHL, which is why his value isn't great. Also, goalies just arent worth as much as they should be.

Wiercioch has had a good streak, but his defensive play is inconsistent at best. He hasnt played a full season and really isnt going to get the value he commands. He is being a bit underrated at this point, but I think part of that is Sens fans insisting on Philly's best young wingers. They arent happy.

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03-21-2013, 10:03 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
You need to accept that Voracek isnt going anywhere.
I already accepted that like 5 posts into the thread.

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03-21-2013, 10:05 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post


I'm rapidly losing faith in this thread.
To bring the thread back to some semblance of normalcy.

What would Philly want from Ottawa to get a top 6 winger from Philly. (Read, Simmonds, Vorachek)

What do you need, what does Ottawa have to meet that need?

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Old
03-21-2013, 10:14 AM
  #147
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Maybe this is a better question to Sens fans. INDIVIDUALLY, what are Weir and Bishop worth in terms of picks. Early 2nd? Late 2nd? I think by knowing this, it will be easier to judge things. Because some lake it seem like both are worth 1st rounders. And if that's the case, then there is no deal to be made here

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03-21-2013, 10:15 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
You need to accept that Voracek isnt going anywhere. The legit top line player tag on Voracek is premature by most of their fanbase, but he is a player they would be insane to trade at this point. These really young guys that score almost 30 goals(Simmonds) in a season or get close to PPG are very hard to get.

Bishop still hasn't been a starter for an extended period in the NHL, which is why his value isn't great. Also, goalies just arent worth as much as they should be.

Wiercioch has had a good streak, but his defensive play is inconsistent at best. He hasnt played a full season and really isnt going to get the value he commands. He is being a bit underrated at this point, but I think part of that is Sens fans insisting on Philly's best young wingers. They arent happy.
As has been pointed out, the Flyers just don't have the depth at wing to replace any of these guys (Simmonds, Voracek, Read). I would consider trading Hartnell before any of those three. If the Flyers are going to trade a forward for a PMD type guy, I think it much more likely that they would trade a center than a winger.

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03-21-2013, 10:16 AM
  #149
Jack de la Hoya
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Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
Maybe this is a better question to Sens fans. INDIVIDUALLY, what are Weir and Bishop worth in terms of picks. Early 2nd? Late 2nd? I think by knowing this, it will be easier to judge things. Because some lake it seem like both are worth 1st rounders. And if that's the case, then there is no deal to be made here
From the thread on their board, it seems that the consensus is:

Wiercioch = mid/late 1st
Bishop = early/mid 2nd + [basically, more than they gave up to get him, based on his play over the last 12 months]

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03-21-2013, 10:22 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by JackStraw View Post
As has been pointed out, the Flyers just don't have the depth at wing to replace any of these guys (Simmonds, Voracek, Read). I would consider trading Hartnell before any of those three. If the Flyers are going to trade a forward for a PMD type guy, I think it much more likely that they would trade a center than a winger.
Flyers also have Briere, Hartnell. I could be wrong but dont both have those players have NMC? Would be hard to move them.

I dont seem to think they lack NHL depth, it just wouldnt make sense to move Voracek.

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