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Old
03-21-2013, 07:36 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Wow some of us are undervaluing Read.

The idea of a Read MR Carter line makes me smile. That would be a sick line. Read plus for JB (and not a top 5 pick either) would be a good move for us. Read plus a first sounds good.
It's far closer to Bernier + 1st for Read + 3rd.

Goalies, no matter how good, traditionally have very little value.

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03-21-2013, 07:53 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
It's far closer to Bernier + 1st for Read + 3rd.

Goalies, no matter how good, traditionally have very little value.
Lindback was traded last off-season for two 2nds and a 3rd and his value was close to Bernier's with Bernier having slightly better career stats across the board at the time Lindback was traded. Add on top of that Bernier being great this year (7-2 1.94 GAA .923 SV%), but lets leave his value at two seconds and a third just for arguments sake. So the Kings would be trading a first, two seconds, and a third for Read and a third........no way your proposed deal is far closer


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Old
03-21-2013, 08:07 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by ScoreZeGoals View Post
Lindback was traded last off-season for two 2nds and a 3rd and his value was close to Bernier's with Bernier having slightly better career stats across the board at the time Lindback was traded. Add on top of that Bernier being great this year (7-2 1.94 GAA .923 SV%), but lets leave his value at two seconds and a third just for arguments sake. So the Kings would be trading a first, two seconds, and a third for Read and a third........no way your proposed deal is far closer
Well, considering where the Flyers and Kings will be picking, it's more like Bernier + high 2nd for Read + high 3rd...

But of course, you ignore context, as almost everyone on HFBoards does.

Basically Read's value is a draft round higher than Bernier's is what I pointed out.

EDIT: Nevermind. Figured it out.

It's really closer to three 2nds + 3rd for Read + 2nd.

As I said before, context is EXTREMELY important, but people in general just like ignoring it. You can float the picks around, but it's not like the Flyers are getting a top 15 pick out of this deal, which is something you would expect to pay for a 0.900m/year 25yo forward racking up 50 points a season while playing a speedy and defensively responsible game.


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Old
03-21-2013, 08:29 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Well, considering where the Flyers and Kings will be picking, it's more like Bernier + high 2nd for Read + high 3rd...

But of course, you ignore context, as almost everyone on HFBoards does.

Basically Read's value is a draft round higher than Bernier's is what I pointed out.

EDIT: Nevermind. Figured it out.

It's really closer to three 2nds + 3rd for Read + 2nd.

As I said before, context is EXTREMELY important, but people in general just like ignoring it. You can float the picks around, but it's not like the Flyers are getting a top 15 pick out of this deal, which is something you would expect to pay for a 0.900m/year 25yo forward racking up 50 points a season while playing a speedy and defensively responsible game.
I didn't ignore context at all, I just completely disagree with your perspective and think that Tonellisghost's proposal (while not perfect) is much more plausible than yours. I'm also of the opinion that there is no way Read is worth a top 15 pick or 2nds and a 3rd (canceling out the other two 2nds). Read is 26, not 25 and will be 27 in three months. How many soon to be 27 year old forwards with 60 career points return a top 15 draft pick? If the Flyers could get a top 15 pick for Read, he wouldn't be a Flyer. In addition, you have to subtract 1/4 to 1/3 of a Flyers players projected production if that player is traded to a franchise that actually plays defense.


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Old
03-21-2013, 08:43 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by ScoreZeGoals View Post
I didn't ignore context at all, I just completely disagree with your perspective and think that Tonellisghost's proposal (while not perfect) is much more plausible than yours. I'm also of the opinion that there is no way Read is worth a top 15 pick or 2nds and a 3rd (canceling out the other two 2nds). Read is 26, not 25 and will be 27 in three months. How many soon to be 27 year old forwards with 60 career points return a top 15 draft pick? If the Flyers could get a top 15 pick for Read, he wouldn't be a Flyer. In addition, you have to subtract 1/4 to 1/3 of a Flyers players projected production if that player is traded to a franchise that actually plays defense.
...What??

Please explain that statement for me.

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03-21-2013, 08:58 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
It's far closer to Bernier + 1st for Read + 3rd.

Goalies, no matter how good, traditionally have very little value.
As a fellow Flyers fan, this is how I see it. In reality, if Philly trades for Bernier, it is to make him the #1. Therefore, it is value to Philly. I could see a Bernier for Read swap....1 for 1, but as others have said, it would be a summer deal. And then Philly could run Bryz and Bernier for 1 year 50-50 and then buyout Brzy next summer. Philly only acquires Bernier if they are cutting ties with Bryz.

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Old
03-21-2013, 09:00 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
...What??

Please explain that statement for me.
The Flyers play a wide-open, pond hockey system under Laviolette. As a result, many of their players put up inflated stats. It's only this year their their scoring hasn't been able to overcome their poor defensive play. Look at last year, 2nd in goals per game, 20th in goals against. Instead of trying to tighten things up, Lavy chooses to play a system that looks to win games 5-4, where as more defensively responsible teams look to win 3-2. As a result, Lavy's players produce more.

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Old
03-21-2013, 09:04 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by ScoreZeGoals View Post
The Flyers play a wide-open, pond hockey system under Laviolette. As a result, many of their players put up inflated stats. It's only this year their their scoring hasn't been able to overcome their poor defensive play. Look at last year, 2nd in goals per game, 20th in goals against. Instead of trying to tighten things up, Lavy chooses to play a system that looks to win games 5-4, where as more defensively responsible teams look to win 3-2. As a result, Lavy's plays produce more.
This just proves you don't understand Lavi's system.

The struggles of the Flyers this season stem directly from two coinciding factors:

1) Bryzgalov's inability to stop a puck.
2) The Flyers inability to move the puck because a severe lack of PMDs.

The second one in particular is very important to the offensive design of Laviolette's system, and Holmgren has failed to cater to that in particular.

The Flyers are 20th in goals against not because their defense is bad but instead because it relies heavily on shut-down defensemen. Look at their hits, shot blocking, CORSI ratings, and shots against per game.

Unfortunately, the transition game has been the problem, and Bryzgalov has not been an answer for it.

When the transition game is an issue, the offensive production is the most telling thing to suffer. Players like Read actually underscore.

Another thing to note in particular is generally on teams with tons of offensive depth, points get shared more. A lot of higher point producers inherently get their peak production totals flattened because they are not getting the same amount of offensive time as they would on other teams where they are higher on the depth chart.

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03-21-2013, 09:05 AM
  #59
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Read would be a great fit. Unlike some I am worried about our cap next year

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Old
03-21-2013, 09:35 AM
  #60
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I would do Read for Bernier straight up as a kings fan. Just don't think we will be getting as much as DL wants for Bernier. Goalie market will be flooded this summer.

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03-21-2013, 10:06 AM
  #61
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i honestly don't see where read would fit into the team with toffoli coming. To much talent to play 3rd rw. Can he play lw ? or will toffoli ? I think futures of a 1st 3rd and Noebels fits better imo. We can draft what we need. Also not have to worry about cap when trying to resign every one.

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03-21-2013, 10:14 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
i honestly don't see where read would fit into the team with toffoli coming. To much talent to play 3rd rw. Can he play lw ? or will toffoli ?
Read could play LW, IMO. He's played all three forward positions at various times here in Philadelphia.

Quote:
I think futures of a 1st 3rd and Noebels fits better imo. We can draft what we need. Also not have to worry about cap when trying to resign every one.
If that 1st was a 2014 1st, it might make sense for Philly, but I can't imagine they move their pick this year.

EDIT: Nope. Draft is in Philadelphia in 2014. I'm out of ideas.


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Old
03-21-2013, 10:18 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
Read could play LW, IMO. He's played all three forward positions at various times here in Philadelphia.

If that 1st was a 2014 1st, it might make sense for Philly, but I can't imagine they move their pick this year.
Read and 2014 1st for Bernier = where do we sign?

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03-21-2013, 10:21 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Knight of the Realm View Post
Read and 2014 1st for Bernier = where do we sign?
noooo... sorry. That was in reference to the poster's suggestion of a futures package of 1st + 3d + prospect.

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Old
03-21-2013, 10:22 AM
  #65
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Not a chance in hell I am giving a roster player+1st for John Bernier.

Goalies tend to get draft picks and prospects in return, not roster players. That would be a steal for the Kings if you get Read for Bernier straight up.

My previous trade proposal was for during the off season as well. Like others I suspect they won't move Bernier in season due to Quick coming off back surgery.

Quote:
I have said this before, but if the Flyers manage to grab another 1st rounder in this years draft I would package that with a prospect for Bernier.

Something along the lines of:

1st rounder(20-30 range)+Noebels+3rd(2014)

Bobby Mac said you guys were looking for a first+prospect last year but had no bitters.
Like I said, that is fair value I feel. Both sides get what they were looking for.

There was at least one Kings fan that liked this deal

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03-21-2013, 10:33 AM
  #66
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noooo... sorry. That was in reference to the poster's suggestion of a futures package of 1st + 3d + prospect.
...you caught that I see

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03-21-2013, 10:39 AM
  #67
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Well its a proposal i ve been asking for bernier along( ive sorta always been vocal as a king s fan when it comes to jb. ) A top 6 prospect and a 1st is what ive asked . hell you even added a 3rd to it. How could i turn it down. I m not ur typical kings fan I always want to try and keep the farm team stocked more so then most other king fans. Again this would be after the season i think Jb is to important to let go before the end of the season imo

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03-21-2013, 10:43 AM
  #68
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Well its a proposal i ve been asking for bernier along( ive sorta always been vocal as a king s fan when it comes to jb. ) A top 6 prospect and a 1st is what ive asked . hell you even added a 3rd to it. How could i turn it down. I m not ur typical kings fan I always want to try and keep the farm team stocked more so then most other king fans. Again this would be after the season i think Jb is to important to let go before the end of the season imo
I agree that off season makes the most sense for both teams really.

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03-21-2013, 10:45 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
Read could play LW, IMO. He's played all three forward positions at various times here in Philadelphia.


If that 1st was a 2014 1st, it might make sense for Philly, but I can't imagine they move their pick this year.
With the draft being in Philly in 2014 they will probably be looking to keep their pick

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03-21-2013, 10:47 AM
  #70
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With the draft being in Philly in 2014 they will probably be looking to keep their pick
Yup. You're right on that.

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Old
03-21-2013, 10:51 AM
  #71
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With the draft being in Philly in 2014 they will probably be looking to keep their pick
Or at least keeping it until the draft and making a big trade with it.

I.E Bobby Ryan. Calling it now.

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03-21-2013, 11:05 AM
  #72
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Considering how well LA has done drafting in the second round (Simmonds, Clifford, Voynov, Toffoli) I don't have any problem packaging Berny without having a 1st involved. I am a fan of Read as well.

After the season ofcourse.

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Old
03-21-2013, 11:36 AM
  #73
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With Willie and Green back next year along with Muzzin\Voynov\Doughty. We can pacakage Martinez with Bernier this off season and get alot more than Read.

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03-21-2013, 11:39 AM
  #74
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With Willie and Green back next year along with Muzzin\Voynov\Doughty. We can pacakage Martinez with Bernier this off season and get alot more than Read.
Aren't they both RFAs?

EDIT: I meant Martinez and Bernier


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Old
03-21-2013, 11:39 AM
  #75
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I am in ! The more Phylers/Kings trades the better
This! I think everyone is overlooking this factor.

Guys, the real problem is there hasn't been a Los Philadelphia FlyKings trade this year. DL and Holmgren have the itch!

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