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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM (Part II)

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Old
03-20-2013, 11:01 PM
  #76
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And the one trade you guy defend until you are blue in the face looks awesome now too. McGinn has been benched.

And his 4 mil a year man has also been benched.

Has any 1 of Sherman's moves worked out?

Every single player he has let go has had success but all the guys he aquired, aside from Parenteau and Mitchell have bombed.

Nice work genius.

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03-20-2013, 11:11 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
And the one trade you guy defend until you are blue in the face looks awesome now too. McGinn has been benched.
Scratched for one game means that trade is now terrible. Great logic. Have you looked at how many times Galiardi has been a healthy scratch this year? Not to mention McGinn isn't the only guy we got in the trade...

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03-20-2013, 11:18 PM
  #78
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I like it. We are being pro-active and we are not letting our core guys go to free agency. David Jones is a big part of this team and after the team aquired McGinn, that line was awful hard to stop.

Mcleod is also a big part of this team. His energy on the 4th line is something that every team would love to have.

Hunwick really came on in the 2nd half of the season and he did not look out of place getting top minutes playing alongside EJ.

Hedjuk is an integral part of this team. He is the lone player left from our glory days and the players love him.

I expect all of our restricted free agents to be back and we may even shop Duchene for a top pairing D-man and we make a run for Parise.

I am really starting to like how Sherman gets things done. He has built a real solid team.

Jamie McGinn - Paul Stastny - David Jones
Gabriel Landeskog - Ryan O'Reilly - Zach Parise or Peter Mueller
Steve Downie - Marc Olver - Milan Hedjuk
Chuck Kobasew - Jay McClement - Cody McLeod

**Joey Hischon

Erik Johnson - Traded for Duchene or Ryan Suter
Jan Hedja - Ryan O'Bryne
Matt Hunwick - Ryan Wilson

**Stefan Elliot
**Tyson Barrie
**Cameron Guance

-- Peter Mueller, Shane O'Brien let go?
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...n#post50651315

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Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
Absolutly love the trade.

Winnik is terrible. He offers nothing offensively, cant fight and is not a big hitter. He does some nice things but he should have about 25 goals now with the amount of chances he has had this year. He wasn't going to be back anyways.

Galiardi has some potential but he just cannot stay healthy. I'd much rather sign McGinn as a RFA than Galiardi.

McGinn is perfect for this team. Him and Downie make us that much harder to play against.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...n#post45108447

Oh, whoops! Accidentally copied and pasted this, and hit enter. My bad.

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03-20-2013, 11:19 PM
  #79
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With respect, how do you know that? One could have easily assumed the same thing after last season, no? Last year's defense was pretty rotten also, and what did Sherman do? - He resigned three of the 6 guys he had to multi-year contracts, and signed a 4th who plays just like the worst of the ones he already had. He upgraded nothing. Yet people should relax and expect something different? In a year when only one of the scrub defensemen has an expiring contract, compared with three expiring after last offseason?
Agreed 100% These guys have played so badly that even their relatively modest contracts are all but immovable.

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03-20-2013, 11:54 PM
  #80
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Oh, whoops! Accidentally copied and pasted this, and hit enter. My bad.


I have trouble with that too.

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03-20-2013, 11:59 PM
  #81
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Agreed 100% These guys have played so badly that even their relatively modest contracts are all but immovable.
I'd like to see what Zanon and O'Brien could do in appropriate roles and after a good camp. O'Byrne has been unexpectedly worse than last year, and I don't think any of us saw him playing this poorly. The Market was poor last year and our young guys needed more time.

I'm not letting Sherman off the hook, but I do think the lockout and shortened pre-season as well as Sacco's insistence to play guys outside their realistic roles and pairings is contributing to the poor play.

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03-21-2013, 12:15 AM
  #82
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I'd like to see what Zanon and O'Brien could do in appropriate roles and after a good camp. O'Byrne has been unexpectedly worse than last year, and I don't think any of us saw him playing this poorly. The Market was poor last year and our young guys needed more time.

I'm not letting Sherman off the hook, but I do think the lockout and shortened pre-season as well as Sacco's insistence to play guys outside their realistic roles and pairings is contributing to the poor play.
Zanon isn't an NHLer and hasn't been for a while now. A full camp won't make any difference. O'Brien, maybe, but I'm still befuddled by that deal. Three years!? We all expected him to walk at season's end. I don't begrudge that deal so much as the fact that he went out and got Zanon when he already had ROB and SOB still strikes me as redundant pieces who not only don't complement each other, they make each other worse since guys like ROB and Zanon have no puck skill whatsoever.

I'll be the first to admit that I didn't see O'Byrne's disastrous year coming, but Zanon's lack of ability doesn't surprise me at all. What does surprise me is that the organization hasn't done anything about it. In fact, he keeps getting top minutes!

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03-21-2013, 12:51 AM
  #83
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Colorado isn't rebuilding anymore. Or rather, they can't be.

Two summers ago they were trading away 1st and 2nd round picks for it's goaltender. The defense is a veteran group signed long-term. Matt Duchene, Ryan O'Reilly, and Gabe Landeskog are playing like top flight players.

The next logical step for Colorado this season was a step forward. Instead, they've taken a huge step back, and for once there hasn't been widespread injury problems. The team is just bad.
And that season after trading their pick they contended for the playoffs. This year they kept their pick because the struggles this team would face were predictable. Sherman took a team and essentially from scratch, built up a strong forward core with 3 excellent centers (dutchy, staz, ror), a bunch of quality wingers (Landy, PAP, McGinn, Downie, Mitchell, Jones and Plooshy), 1 first pairing dman (EJ), two solid vets (Hejda and O'Brien), and a good group of young dmen prospects (Barrie, Elliott and Siemens), a Franchise Goaler (Varly) and a good set of goalie prospects. That's pretty sweet for just a couple years of rebuilding. If he can fix our issues behind the bench and bring in an EJ partner he'll have done incredibly well in just a few short years.

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03-21-2013, 08:23 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
And the one trade you guy defend until you are blue in the face looks awesome now too. McGinn has been benched.

And his 4 mil a year man has also been benched.

Has any 1 of Sherman's moves worked out?

Every single player he has let go has had success but all the guys he aquired, aside from Parenteau and Mitchell have bombed.

Nice work genius.
So Heebs, I've been totally on board with you on the EJ trade, but I'm going to respectfully diverge a bit here. Happy to discuss if you're willing.

Not all of Sherman's transactions have been bombs, and several have been good. Has he had a whopping explosive win so far? No, I don't think he has. But he's made decent moves.

I think the McGinn trade will go down as a good one. Yes, a ton of Avs fans tented their shorts when he got here and scored goals at a pace that was 4x better than he'd ever scored before, and the trade initially looked like whaling success. But if you take out that first month with Colorado, this is a guy who's never scored even 15 goals in a season. So now that he's come down to earth, the question is whether the Avs got a good 2nd line guy, or a good 3rd line guy in that trade. Given what they gave up and what they got, it's still a good trade. I just think expectations need to be leveled a bit. In the end, 3rd line forward and 4th line forward for 2nd line forward and two prospects? I'm sold.

Same thing for Downie. Aside from one really good season in Tampa Bay, here is another player who has never scored 15 goals in a NHL season. Yet because he came to Colorado on a trade high and scored a bunch of points, a lot of fans are seeing a 1st/2nd line player, when in actuality the team likely has a 2nd/3rd line guy. But probably a good one. That trade I'm not sold on. Because the Avs gave up a solid 2nd pairing guy who would look damn good next to EJ on this team. For all of the *****ing about Quincey late last season, he was solidly entrenched on Detroit's 2nd pairing this season, averaging over 19 minutes per game. 2nd line forward for 2nd line dman? I'm not sold.

So I want to now take into account Mitchell. He, like McGinn and Downie, has had a fantastic first 20ish games, scoring FAR above any level he's ever scored in the NHL before. Like McGinn and Downie, is it quite likely he's going to come down to earth? In my opinion, yes it is likely. Which is why I think the Avs should strongly consider trading him to a contender at the deadline. I think he'd be a great depth addition to a contending team, and would bring a decent pick or prospect in return. Still, good signing by Sherman.

The Parenteau signing looks really good here at the outset. Parenteau is a much smarter, much more creative player than I had thought. I really like him on the power play, because he can sit there at the half boards in the offensive zone and control the puck very well. The Avs haven't had a forward with that capability since Forsberg left (Stastny sort of can do it, but not really well). This can really open up a power play. Of course, it helps when said power play has a point man or two who can get shots through, but that's a different topic. :-) In the end, looks like a good signing by Sherman.

David Jones is a train wreck. He's completely lost. Not sure what to do there.


Last edited by ABasin: 03-21-2013 at 08:53 AM.
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03-21-2013, 09:04 AM
  #85
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Zanon isn't an NHLer and hasn't been for a while now. A full camp won't make any difference. O'Brien, maybe, but I'm still befuddled by that deal. Three years!? We all expected him to walk at season's end. I don't begrudge that deal so much as the fact that he went out and got Zanon when he already had ROB and SOB still strikes me as redundant pieces
I agree 100%. The Zanon signing was senseless. I could see Sherman signing one of the three guys (O'Brien, Hunwick, Zanon) he did sign (and I honestly wouldn't have much cared which one), but all three? That wasn't well done, IMO.

I didn't mind his Wilson signing at all. I like aspects of his game...........when he's playing the game. That guy seems to be made of glass.

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03-21-2013, 09:07 AM
  #86
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I agree 100%. The Zanon signing was senseless. I could see Sherman signing one of the three guys (O'Brien, Hunwick, Zanon) he did sign (and I honestly wouldn't have much cared which one), but all three? That wasn't well done, IMO.

I didn't mind his Wilson signing at all. I like aspects of his game...........when he's playing the game. That guy seems to be made of glass.
I think this latest time that Wilson came back too soon.

He even told ColoradoAvalanche.com that his ankle was still hurting a bit, but that he would play through the pain. Knowing that I fully believe that he tweaked it badly and after still having pain, that's what landed him back on the IR

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03-21-2013, 10:14 AM
  #87
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Stewart is putting up points this year, but he only had 30 last year and is NOT EVEN CLOSE to being "the best power forward in the game"
Who do you feel is the best?

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And will you start going at the Downie trade now too??
He's right to question that trade. I question it also, and have since the day they did it. I don't mind Downie as a player, but I'm not sure that was a good swap.

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03-21-2013, 10:38 AM
  #88
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So Heebs, I've been totally on board with you on the EJ trade, but I'm going to respectfully diverge a bit here. Happy to discuss if you're willing.

Not all of Sherman's transactions have been bombs, and several have been good. Has he had a whopping explosive win so far? No, I don't think he has. But he's made decent moves.

I think the McGinn trade will go down as a good one. Yes, a ton of Avs fans tented their shorts when he got here and scored goals at a pace that was 4x better than he'd ever scored before, and the trade initially looked like whaling success. But if you take out that first month with Colorado, this is a guy who's never scored even 15 goals in a season. So now that he's come down to earth, the question is whether the Avs got a good 2nd line guy, or a good 3rd line guy in that trade. Given what they gave up and what they got, it's still a good trade. I just think expectations need to be leveled a bit. In the end, 3rd line forward and 4th line forward for 2nd line forward and two prospects? I'm sold.

Same thing for Downie. Aside from one really good season in Tampa Bay, here is another player who has never scored 15 goals in a NHL season. Yet because he came to Colorado on a trade high and scored a bunch of points, a lot of fans are seeing a 1st/2nd line player, when in actuality the team likely has a 2nd/3rd line guy. But probably a good one. That trade I'm not sold on. Because the Avs gave up a solid 2nd pairing guy who would look damn good next to EJ on this team. For all of the *****ing about Quincey late last season, he was solidly entrenched on Detroit's 2nd pairing this season, averaging over 19 minutes per game. 2nd line forward for 2nd line dman? I'm not sold.

So I want to now take into account Mitchell. He, like McGinn and Downie, has had a fantastic first 20ish games, scoring FAR above any level he's ever scored in the NHL before. Like McGinn and Downie, is it quite likely he's going to come down to earth? In my opinion, yes it is likely. Which is why I think the Avs should strongly consider trading him to a contender at the deadline. I think he'd be a great depth addition to a contending team, and would bring a decent pick or prospect in return. Still, good signing by Sherman.

The Parenteau signing looks really good here at the outset. Parenteau is a much smarter, much more creative player than I had thought. I really like him on the power play, because he can sit there at the half boards in the offensive zone and control the puck very well. The Avs haven't had a forward with that capability since Forsberg left (Stastny sort of can do it, but not really well). This can really open up a power play. Of course, it helps when said power play has a point man or two who can get shots through, but that's a different topic. :-) In the end, looks like a good signing by Sherman.

David Jones is a train wreck. He's completely lost. Not sure what to do there.
First of all I think you're a really good poster and I understand your frustration with the EJ trade, I'm not a fan of the way he's been playing on the offensive side of the puck either, but I still hope he'll bounce back and provide 35 points with great defense on regular basis.

As for the McGinn trade, I like it, but not so much because of Jamie, much more because of Sgarbossa and because of who we ended up trading in that trade. Lets face it Winnik wasn't coming back and Galiardi as much as I like the guy is really struglling mightly in San Jose just as he was here in Denver.

Considering Downie, he's a 3rd liner who can play in the top 6 when injuries hit and do a good job at it. My biggest concern with him is his health and unpredictable temper, which can sometimes help him, but most of the time it hurts him and the team. All in all I like him as a player. As for Quincey, I'm not a fan. Before the 10/11 season I posted here that I see him as a glue of our defense, if he plays good our defense looks better as a whole, if he underperforms our defense looks much worse. I think we can all say he didn't perform up to the expectation before he got dealt and in the Wings games I saw since he got there he's much like he was back when he was in Denver, his offense is maddeningly inconsistent and he's prone to defensive breakdowns and ill advised decisions with the puck on his stick. I see him an inconsistent #4 defenseman in this league. If Downie manages to stay relatively healthy (I realize that's a big if) I like this trade from our POV.

As for Mitchell, I didn't like the signing when it was anounced, I remembered him from TO and NY and he seemed like a guy who's in love with his stick-handling. His games with the Avs further proved that, but his flaws (bad defensive play, bad decisions with the puck) have been somewhat masked by the fact that he's on an inasne scoring streak and by the fact that he's playing on the wing. So I would agree with you I don't see him keep up this pace based on his history in the NHL.

Our defense is a cluster****, there's just no other word for it. I wanted them to re-sign Wilson and one of the SOB/Hunny duo, when they re-signed all three of them I was thinking OK they're trying to secure some depth on the blue-line as you just can't have too much defensemen, but then they wanted to sign Carkner who infamously refused them and they went to grab Zanon istead who was at best bad with the Bruins. Sherman's moves considering our defense thsi past offseason still have me puzzled.

I won't waste words on PAP because you've said it all in your post.

Regarding Jones I think he caught the Dustin ''I got paid so I can just float around'' Penner bug.

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03-21-2013, 11:08 AM
  #89
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First of all I think you're a really good poster and I understand your frustration with the EJ trade, I'm not a fan of the way he's been playing on the offensive side of the puck either, but I still hope he'll bounce back and provide 35 points with great defense on regular basis.
Thanks for the kinds words, and I send them back in turn.

I've said an awful lot about the EJ trade, so no need to rehash it here. If he starts putting up 40+ points per season while playing high quality defense, I'll be OK with the trade. Still very expensive, but defensible. Well, maybe not 'OK' with the trade, but I'll be less inclined to ***** about it so much. :-) But at 15-20 points (and zero goals) per season, it's not defensible. Anyway, enough of that.

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Considering Downie, he's a 3rd liner who can play in the top 6 when injuries hit and do a good job at it. My biggest concern with him is his health and unpredictable temper, which can sometimes help him, but most of the time it hurts him and the team. All in all I like him as a player. As for Quincey, I'm not a fan. Before the 10/11 season I posted here that I see him as a glue of our defense, if he plays good our defense looks better as a whole, if he underperforms our defense looks much worse. I think we can all say he didn't perform up to the expectation before he got dealt and in the Wings games I saw since he got there he's much like he was back when he was in Denver, his offense is maddeningly inconsistent and he's prone to defensive breakdowns and ill advised decisions with the puck on his stick. I see him an inconsistent #4 defenseman in this league. If Downie manages to stay relatively healthy (I realize that's a big if) I like this trade from our POV.
I see it as a wash, best case scenario. Quincey has his faults, but he'd still easily be a 2nd pairing guy on the Avs right now. In fact, I'd trade any of the 6 regular Avs defensemen not named Johnson for Quincey right here and now. Hejda's probably a better player, but since Hejda is 8 years older than Quincey, I'd even do that one.

In truth, I'm not sure anyone knows what the hell the Avs have in Downie. They're going to wake up for training camp this October - 18 months after getting him in the trade - and only having seen a dozen or so games of him playing healthy. He's a large unknown, IMO.

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As for Mitchell, I didn't like the signing when it was anounced, I remembered him from TO and NY and he seemed like a guy who's in love with his stick-handling. His games with the Avs further proved that, but his flaws (bad defensive play, bad decisions with the puck) have been somewhat masked by the fact that he's on an inasne scoring streak and by the fact that he's playing on the wing. So I would agree with you I don't see him keep up this pace based on his history in the NHL.
Nope. I like him, but hope they trade him while his value is at its highest in his career. Easily replaced next season.

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Regarding Jones I think he caught the Dustin ''I got paid so I can just float around'' Penner bug.
Well, I wouldn't want to accuse someone of that, but I'm at a loss to come up with an alternate explanation. His game is simply lame in every aspect. He's skating and handling the puck like an ECHL player.

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03-21-2013, 11:26 AM
  #90
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Thanks for the kinds words, and I send them back in turn.

I've said an awful lot about the EJ trade, so no need to rehash it here. If he starts putting up 40+ points per season while playing high quality defense, I'll be OK with the trade. Still very expensive, but defensible. Well, maybe not 'OK' with the trade, but I'll be less inclined to ***** about it so much. :-) But at 15-20 points (and zero goals) per season, it's not defensible. Anyway, enough of that.



I see it as a wash, best case scenario. Quincey has his faults, but he'd still easily be a 2nd pairing guy on the Avs right now. In fact, I'd trade any of the 6 regular Avs defensemen not named Johnson for Quincey right here and now. Hejda's probably a better player, but since Hejda is 8 years older than Quincey, I'd even do that one.

In truth, I'm not sure anyone knows what the hell the Avs have in Downie. They're going to wake up for training camp this October - 18 months after getting him in the trade - and only having seen a dozen or so games of him playing healthy. He's a large unknown, IMO.



Nope. I like him, but hope they trade him while his value is at its highest in his career. Easily replaced next season.



Well, I wouldn't want to accuse someone of that, but I'm at a loss to come up with an alternate explanation. His game is simply lame in every aspect. He's skating and handling the puck like an ECHL player.
Agree on all counts except for the part that the Downie deal could be a wash at best. I think we can end up on top, but an awful lot of things has to go right.

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03-21-2013, 11:54 AM
  #91
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I might be in the minority, but the Downie trade was a clear, 100% win for me. Quincey was a problem; his impending RFA status, his sporadic play, his attitude. You win hockey games with players like Downie.

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03-21-2013, 12:05 PM
  #92
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I might be in the minority, but the Downie trade was a clear, 100% win for me. Quincey was a problem; his impending RFA status, his sporadic play, his attitude. You win hockey games with players like Downie.
In my opinion, truer words can not be spoken in regards to the Quincey/Downie trade.

I believe that was nothing short of a clear-cut, 100% win for Sherman.

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03-21-2013, 12:23 PM
  #93
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Who do you feel is the best?
Stewart and EJ? I would gamble on EJ's potential 100 out of 10 times, going back to our posts I think the coach is destroying him. He isn't being used properly, he is lacking serious confidence offensively, and isn't getting good minutes to develop. The worst part is I haven't seen any body (coach or player) during the game tell him what he has to improve on.

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03-21-2013, 12:33 PM
  #94
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I might be in the minority, but the Downie trade was a clear, 100% win for me. Quincey was a problem; his impending RFA status, his sporadic play, his attitude. You win hockey games with players like Downie.
Downie is amazing. He would be so much more valuable if he stops taking those stupid penalties, but in that regard we wouldn't have got him for Quincey. Honestly I think Downie deserves to be in a top 6 role more than McGinn.

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03-21-2013, 12:53 PM
  #95
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And that season after trading their pick they contended for the playoffs. This year they kept their pick because the struggles this team would face were predictable. Sherman took a team and essentially from scratch, built up a strong forward core with 3 excellent centers (dutchy, staz, ror), a bunch of quality wingers (Landy, PAP, McGinn, Downie, Mitchell, Jones and Plooshy), 1 first pairing dman (EJ), two solid vets (Hejda and O'Brien), and a good group of young dmen prospects (Barrie, Elliott and Siemens), a Franchise Goaler (Varly) and a good set of goalie prospects. That's pretty sweet for just a couple years of rebuilding. If he can fix our issues behind the bench and bring in an EJ partner he'll have done incredibly well in just a few short years.
The only year Colorado made the playoffs under his watch was with a largely unchanged roster + Craig Anderson. Credit to him for signing Anderson. Also credit to him for making a lot of savvy trades.

But when you add it all up, solitary personnel transactions take a back seat to team success.

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03-21-2013, 12:59 PM
  #96
Av-merican
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Originally Posted by shadow1 View Post
The only year Colorado made the playoffs under his watch was with a largely unchanged roster + Craig Anderson. Credit to him for signing Anderson. Also credit to him for making a lot of savvy trades.

But when you add it all up, solitary personnel transactions take a back seat to team success.
Thank you. Right now these individual trades seem great by themselves, but they're not adding up to a winner.

I'll give Sherman credit for flipping Smyth in what was essentially a salary dump and actually getting good value (Quincey) in return, and then parlaying that into another solid return (Downie) when things seemingly went south with him. It's unfortunate that they have yet to replace what they lost in Quincey, but I suppose we'll see what happens at the draft and in free agency.

Still not sure about Downie though. Capable of great play, also capable of making stupid, undisciplined mistakes. Hope he comes back strong and the Landy-ROR-Downie line can re-ignite their great play from last season.

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03-21-2013, 01:13 PM
  #97
ABasin
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Originally Posted by S E P H View Post
Stewart and EJ?
No, I was asking who he/she felt is the best power forward in the NHL.

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03-21-2013, 01:15 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by PAZ View Post
Downie is amazing.
A guy who's scored over 15 goals once in his NHL career is 'amazing'?

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03-21-2013, 01:16 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by TwoPadStack View Post
You win hockey games with players like Downie.
I don't disagree. You win hockey games with players like Malhotra and John Mitchell also, but that doesn't mean you pay 2nd pairing defensemen for them.

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03-21-2013, 01:19 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
No, I was asking who he/she felt is the best power forward in the NHL.
It's gotta be Perry, right?

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