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Blues Trade Proposals Part 4

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03-20-2013, 08:44 PM
  #951
BadgersandBlues
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Originally Posted by Alklha View Post
We are all guessing when it comes to the financials of the team.

Schwartz - Backes - Oshie ($900k - $4.75m - $4m)
Perron - Berglund - Stewart ($3.5m - $3.8m? - $4.25m?)
Steen - Lehterä - Tarasenko ($3.57m - $2.25m? - $900k)
Porter - Sobotka - Reaves ($600k? - $1.4m - $600k)
Cracknell - Nichol ($550k? - $650k?)

????? - Pietrangelo (????? - $6.25m?)
Jackman - Shattenkirk ($3.25m - $4.75m?)
Russell - Polák ($1.5m? - $3.1m)
Cole ($1.5m?)

Halák ($4.5m)
Allen ($1m?)

Some of the deals might come out at a little more, some at a little less, but I don't think any of the numbers are really that outlandish. That would see our salary bill at around $57.5m without any potential backloading of the RFA contracts and with that 1 LHD spot to fill.

But to be honest, I expect we'll continue to backload contracts and we'll be at around $54m total for that line up next season. So we would have space to add a LHD, but it will create headaches going forward. However, we'd be able to move a winger in the summer of 2014 to make way for Rattie/Jaškin (saving ~$3m) and hopefully Hakanpää could make Polák a trade chip as well (saving ~$2m).
You're right around what I was thinking. The only difference is that I don't think AP is going to get 6.25 right off the bat, I think the OEL contract is one that Army is going to try and structure AP's contract around. He has too good of a history to allow a player to go from ELC to 6+ all at once. I think eventually he's going to get there, but not next season. That's where the main difference in your (57.5) and my average (54.5) come from.

I said it in a different thread, but how nice would it be to know Elliott will rebound and Allen will continue with the type of play we've seen from him so far. If we could cut Halak's 4.5 off the table, it would give us all the room we need for that last player.

In all honesty, I think unless Allen turns into a sieve, Halak is gone after next year. He hasn't proven he can handle #1 minutes, but he will want to get paid like one anyway.

This is all just speculation of course, we have no clue what kind of financial shape the Blues are in. Hopefully we can make a super deep run with lots of home playoff games to bankroll whatever we need to do!

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03-20-2013, 09:23 PM
  #952
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This is weird. I don't like the idea of trading Stewart and Schwartz for Vlasic and Pavs. Weird because this actually fills our needs. Partially because I think long term we would be better off keeping both. Partially because I don't think Rattie or Jaskin will be playing for the Blues full time next season. I also don't like the idea of trading for Briere, I could careless if he is PPG in playoffs, father time had his way with Langs too..

I would feel more comfortable if I felt we could replace what Stewart and Schwartz bring and what they will bring in the future.
If I'm following the logic, we can't execute a steal of a deal that fills our long-suffering needs because it's possible both of Rattie or Jaskin don't break onto the big roster for up to a year? Since one issue is almost infinitely easier to address than the other, we should hold up addressing the much harder issue because of maybes that are easily solidified with Plan Bs and Cs and Ds on the easy issue?

And we can't acquire an eminently affordable 35yo playoff PPG veteran because a different player fell off when he was 38?

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03-20-2013, 09:33 PM
  #953
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If you could assure a trade for Briere or Jagr, you have to make that Sharks deal.

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03-20-2013, 09:47 PM
  #954
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Even if you didn't make a separate deal for Briere or Jagr you have to pull that trigger; it's too good.

C: Backes, Pavelski, Berglund (Lehtera in pipeline)
LW: Perron, Steen, McDonald (Jaskin in pipeline)
RW: Oshie, Tarasenko, D'Agostini (Rattie in pipeline)
Plus you have Sobotka.

D'Agostini isn't as exciting to list in a lineup as Schwartz or Stewart is, but that's for one season, and if Porter-Nichol-Reaves is a 4th line then Sobotka plays on the third line supplanting D'Agostini.

Meanwhile you solved the LHD issue for quite awhile and significantly improved the D, you have three two-way centers, and you have plenty of skilled wingers left over. Even if McDonald leaves and you didn't get a Briere, it is just way too easy to go out and get an affordable 3d line winger in free agency or via trade.

Steen-Backes-Oshie
McDonald-Pavelski-Perron
Sobotka-Berglund-Tarasenko

Steen-Backes-Perron
McDonald-Pavelski-Tarasenko
Sobotka-Berglund-Oshie

would be examples, with a top 4 defense unit of Pietrangelo, Vlasic, Shattenkirk and Jackman. You have to give to get. It's a serious hockey trade. Shark fans think Matt Irwin is capable of taking over minutes on D, and they need better wingers.

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03-20-2013, 09:56 PM
  #955
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Dreger thinks Burmistrov is on the block for a top 6/9 forward...Wonder if Army WAS in fact scouting him.

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03-20-2013, 10:13 PM
  #956
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I love Pavelski, and think he would be an outstanding fit here. Perhaps even the ideal fit.

I'm a bit more "meh" on Vlasic. He's a very solid defensive defenseman with good mobility, and there's no doubt that he would solidify our defense in a big way as it's currently constructed.

With that said, his puck skills, transition play, offensive instincts, and physicality are all lacking in a significant way. The puck skills and offensive instincts can be overlooked to some degree, but I think the other two are a bit more damning.

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03-21-2013, 01:10 AM
  #957
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
If I'm following the logic, we can't execute a steal of a deal that fills our long-suffering needs because it's possible both of Rattie or Jaskin don't break onto the big roster for up to a year? Since one issue is almost infinitely easier to address than the other, we should hold up addressing the much harder issue because of maybes that are easily solidified with Plan Bs and Cs and Ds on the easy issue?

And we can't acquire an eminently affordable 35yo playoff PPG veteran because a different player fell off when he was 38?
Like I said its weird and I really have no way to support how I feel. Just one of them gut feelings. Pretty hard to follow logic when all that behind it is a gut feeling.

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03-21-2013, 04:51 AM
  #958
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Originally Posted by Bluesman91 View Post
Would rather do something like Oshie+Cole+1st for Pavelski+Vlasic

Steen-Backes-Stewart
Perron-Pavelski-Tarasenko
Schwartz-Berglund-McDonald
Sobotka-Nichol-Porter/Reaves

Vlasic-Pie
Jax-Shatty
Russell-Polak

And replace Amac with Jaskin/Rattie if need be next year. Hell I would even throw McDonald in the trade too, to be honest.
I agree. Not trading Jaskin. I'd throw McDonald in too. Trade Oshie before Stewart too. We're on the same page. Don't get rid of speed, toughness, and size with the new rules for sure. The playoffs are going to be rough with lots of boarding injuries and big hits. Don't like the no hold up/interference rule at all.

Not all agree with this, but I believe that you need a Stewart on this team to answer the bell along with a Reaves. We are a smallish team. You need guys that make sure liberties aren't taken with your players. Backes and Polak aren't the guys. Jackman is a middle weight.


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03-21-2013, 06:59 AM
  #959
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Originally Posted by PerryTurnbullfan View Post
I agree. Not trading Jaskin. I'd throw McDonald in too. Trade Oshie before Stewart too. We're on the same page. Don't get rid of speed, toughness, and size with the new rules for sure. The playoffs are going to be rough with lots of boarding injuries and big hits. Don't like the no hold up/interference rule at all.

Not all agree with this, but I believe that you need a Stewart on this team to answer the bell along with a Reaves. We are a smallish team. You need guys that make sure liberties aren't taken with your players. Backes and Polak aren't the guys. Jackman is a middle weight.
How are the Blues a small team? Because we don't have a lot of players that fight?

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03-21-2013, 07:06 AM
  #960
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How are the Blues a small team? Because we don't have a lot of players that fight?
We rank 26th in the league in height.

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03-21-2013, 07:19 AM
  #961
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Originally Posted by PerryTurnbullfan View Post
We rank 26th in the league in height.
Where do we rank on weight, because Chris Stewart is below the average height of an NHL player so that isn't really what you are getting at...

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03-21-2013, 07:21 AM
  #962
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Kings are 1st. You don't see anyone pushing Chris Stewart around. Do you recall what happened to Tarasenko?

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03-21-2013, 07:22 AM
  #963
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Originally Posted by PerryTurnbullfan View Post
Kings are 1st
Where are you getting these numbers?

We lost to the Kings. They were the hottest team going into the playoffs in years. We got swept because they boarded our best player out of the series in the first game, we lost a significant part of our transition game and got overrun. Size was a factor, but not anything close to what people like to suggest. We are one of the bigger teams in the League.

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03-21-2013, 07:26 AM
  #964
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Originally Posted by PerryTurnbullfan View Post
Kings are 1st. You don't see anyone pushing Chris Stewart around. Do you recall what happened to Tarasenko?
What does what happened to Tarasenko have to do with anything?

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03-21-2013, 08:32 AM
  #965
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Where are you getting these numbers?

We lost to the Kings. They were the hottest team going into the playoffs in years. We got swept because they boarded our best player out of the series in the first game, we lost a significant part of our transition game and got overrun. Size was a factor, but not anything close to what people like to suggest. We are one of the bigger teams in the League.
When the real season begins, hitting intensifies as does every aspect of gritty play. Look at their model, if you wish to be successful. It is a proven track record. They have a cup. No we are not big. Just like last year, we played this way...what we call gritty now, but it didn't translate in the playoffs. The Kings ran us off the ice. Outworked, outskated, and outhit. We do not need anymore soft players or to lose what sandpaper players that we have. Just an example....Oshie, while gritty now, has 0 goals and 3 assist in 13 playoff games. It is a different season. Hate Mike Keenan all that you want. Those words stuck with me that he said. The real season hasn't begun yet. While a total jerk, he was right.

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03-21-2013, 08:57 AM
  #966
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LA bullied us, that's not even up for discussion.

The more important thing though is speed. Chicago and LA fly. If we add someone who is big, but can't skate like Regehr, players will just fly right by him.

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03-21-2013, 09:02 AM
  #967
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I don't see how we can't take on money. We went after Matt Carle and Jason Garrison this off-season, and you know we weren't offering them one-two year deals in the 2-3 million range. This was with the knowledge of how our roster would look this year, and also with the knowledge that we would need to resign our RFAs, some to pretty significant raises.

I think we can pay Garrison type money if we need to, but would prefer to pay Sekera type money.
So the Blues sending a feeler over to Garrison and Carle's agent is equivalent to "going after" them? Please.

The Blues did not make a genuine push for either player. Armstrong was just doing his due diligence like any smart GM would. The final asking price coupled with the term was never going to work with ownership still transitioning and the lockout looming.

The Blues are a franchise that constantly has to look long term and that process really came into focus the last two years as the roster has been virtually unchanged as the team has budgeted for all the RFA's they had last summer and will have this summer.

There's a reason a really solid player hasn't been added even though there has been a screaming hole on the roster since the beginning of last season. If Armstrong had any type of flexibility, I can assure you with his history of aggressiveness something would've been done long ago.

But he doesn't. And it seems like he's made the determination that giving up a solid forward on the roster in exchange for a defenseman is a lateral move and doesn't make the team better.

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03-21-2013, 09:09 AM
  #968
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LA bullied us, that's not even up for discussion.

The more important thing though is speed. Chicago and LA fly. If we add someone who is big, but can't skate like Regehr, players will just fly right by him.
Oh I agree. I can run faster than he can skate. big guys with sandpaper that can skate are key. Don't have room for pirouettes in the playoffs. The space gets much tighter than during the regular season.

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03-21-2013, 09:24 AM
  #969
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Originally Posted by PerryTurnbullfan View Post
When the real season begins, hitting intensifies as does every aspect of gritty play. Look at their model, if you wish to be successful. It is a proven track record. They have a cup. No we are not big. Just like last year, we played this way...what we call gritty now, but it didn't translate in the playoffs. The Kings ran us off the ice. Outworked, outskated, and outhit. We do not need anymore soft players or to lose what sandpaper players that we have. Just an example....Oshie, while gritty now, has 0 goals and 3 assist in 13 playoff games. It is a different season. Hate Mike Keenan all that you want. Those words stuck with me that he said. The real season hasn't begun yet. While a total jerk, he was right.
You are just being very, very selective with your numbers. You want to say that the Blues are 26th in terms of average height in the League? Fine, but the Kings are 13th, not first. You also completely ignore the fact the Blues are 9th in the League in weight. So with the height-to-weight ratio the Blues are undoubtedly one of the bigger teams in the League.

Also, talking about playing a certain style of game and then talking about trading Oshie is just bizarre. As is using a 13 game sample size considering what sample size we had of Stewart last season. I'd rather keep Stewart as well, but Oshie is playing the style of game you seem to be advocating for...

We just need to impose our game onto the opposition on a more consistent basis. A solid LHD will help us do that more than simply adding size. People need to get over losing to the Kings. Yes they bullied us and swept us. After they took our best player out. Prior to Pietrangelo getting injured we had something like 4 or 5 quality scoring chances to their 1. A healthy Pietrangelo an a solid LHD partner for him changes that series dramatically.

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03-21-2013, 09:55 AM
  #970
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We just need to impose our game onto the opposition on a more consistent basis. A solid LHD will help us do that more than simply adding size. People need to get over losing to the Kings. Yes they bullied us and swept us. After they took our best player out. Prior to Pietrangelo getting injured we had something like 4 or 5 quality scoring chances to their 1. A healthy Pietrangelo an a solid LHD partner for him changes that series dramatically.
I actually agree with this. If anyone still has the game on tivo, watch the first 10 minutes. We had them on their heals and were cycling the puck in their zone and putting massive amounts of pressure on them. We also saw this in the second period of that meltdown a few weeks ago this season. That gives me a lot of hope to beat the Kings because we've shown moments of dominance over the kings.

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03-21-2013, 10:26 AM
  #971
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We have an amazing ability to only evaluate based on the most recent handful of games. Trade Oshie before Stewart? That's insane.

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03-21-2013, 11:16 AM
  #972
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We have an amazing ability to only evaluate based on the most recent handful of games. Trade Oshie before Stewart? That's insane.
How many 25+ goal seasons does Oshie have? How about 20+ goal seasons? I evaluate two 28 goal seasons and a breakthrough season this year on a pace to eclipse 35+ over a full season as pretty good. Both players bring different elements to the table. For me, Oshie is more available than Stewart, because we have guys that could fill his role. It's your opinion that it is insane. Mine that isn't. Oshie is a very good player. I personally would rather move Perron. As much as a phenom and stud he is, well....he's Perron and sometimes it just doesn't translate to the rest of the team or linemates. My biggest fear is that he could be the biggest scorer of the 3 eventually...an enigma?

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03-21-2013, 11:31 AM
  #973
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About ten games ago, it would have been considered insane to trade Oshie before Stewart. But whatever happens over the short term always is most wise for long term planning.

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03-21-2013, 11:45 AM
  #974
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I can see the argument for trading Oshie before Stewart. Not that I necessarily agree with it, but there is some sound logic in it.

-We have plenty of players that are similar to Oshie: Backes, Steen, to a lesser extent Sobotka, and if we were to trade for him giving up Oshie, Pavelski

-There are 3 players on this team who have scored 27+ goals at least twice: Backes, McDonald and Stewart.

It's been argued on here before, but the type of physicality that Stewart is bringing right now, is only brought by Backes amongst other team forwards.

It's certainly arguable that Chris Stewart is harder to replace than T.J. Oshie from that standpoint.

With all that said, Stewart is certainly a bigger risk.

-Oshie is the safer player

-Oshie most likely will cost less after this season

-Oshie is a fan favorite

I'm not saying I would trade Oshie before Stewart, but it's certainly not the craziest idea in the world either. Prior to getting hurt, Oshie hadn't exactly been lighting it up himself.

Ultimately, I would let the season play out before I made a decision on trading either of them. If I'm trading a young top 6 winger right now, I would look more to trading Perron over Oshie or Stewart.

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03-21-2013, 11:52 AM
  #975
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Chris Stewart is not as physical as TJ Oshie. Come on. He fights but that doesn't relate to the result of the game. He fought in Vancouver and they didn't win. Fighting is ornamental. It doesn't happen in the playoffs either. Oshie is probably the best reverse hitter in the game, or close enough to it that the point is made.

Oshie and Backes are elite defensive forwards in the NHL. Chris Stewart is not. Oshie is consistent; Stewart is hugely streaky and always has been. Consistent >>> streaky. Oshie hustles more, is a better playmaker, is one of the few guys you can count on to generate takeaways and spark offense. Stewart has been much better this year than last (when he was truly atrocious). Oshie is also signed long term to a good deal, and Stewart isn't.

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