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Blues Trade Proposals Part 4

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Old
03-21-2013, 11:52 AM
  #976
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Where do we rank on weight, because Chris Stewart is below the average height of an NHL player so that isn't really what you are getting at...
What the heck are you talking about? How tall do you think the average NHL player is? I'll tell you, it's about 6'0-6'1. Chris Stewart is 6'2.

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03-21-2013, 11:59 AM
  #977
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Chris Stewart is not as physical as TJ Oshie. Come on. He fights but that doesn't relate to the result of the game. He fought in Vancouver and they didn't win. Fighting is ornamental. It doesn't happen in the playoffs either. Oshie is probably the best reverse hitter in the game, or close enough to it that the point is made.

Oshie and Backes are elite defensive forwards in the NHL. Chris Stewart is not. Oshie is consistent; Stewart is hugely streaky and always has been. Consistent >>> streaky. Oshie hustles more, is a better playmaker, is one of the few guys you can count on to generate takeaways and spark offense. Stewart has been much better this year than last (when he was truly atrocious). Oshie is also signed long term to a good deal, and Stewart isn't.
This is basically it.

I understand the argument for keeping Stewart and physicality, but to suggest moving Oshie instead goes against the argument of building a team like the Kings. Just because he is 5'11 or whatever doesn't mean he isn't a very physical player.

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What the heck are you talking about? How tall do you think the average NHL player is? I'll tell you, it's about 6'0-6'1. Chris Stewart is 6'2.
You are right, the average height is just over 6'1 and Stewart is 6'2. I had read it that the average height was 6'3.

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03-21-2013, 12:22 PM
  #978
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I would move Stewart before Oshie as well, and I'm not really keen on the idea of moving Stewart at the moment.

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03-21-2013, 12:25 PM
  #979
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
Chris Stewart is not as physical as TJ Oshie. Come on. He fights but that doesn't relate to the result of the game. He fought in Vancouver and they didn't win. Fighting is ornamental. It doesn't happen in the playoffs either. Oshie is probably the best reverse hitter in the game, or close enough to it that the point is made.

Oshie and Backes are elite defensive forwards in the NHL. Chris Stewart is not. Oshie is consistent; Stewart is hugely streaky and always has been. Consistent >>> streaky. Oshie hustles more, is a better playmaker, is one of the few guys you can count on to generate takeaways and spark offense. Stewart has been much better this year than last (when he was truly atrocious). Oshie is also signed long term to a good deal, and Stewart isn't.
I disagree with this post for several reasons.

1. Yes, Oshie hits, but when was the last time he completely laid someone out? Was it Dustin Penner during last year's playoffs? Oshie has monster hits every once in a while, not every night. I rarely see him hit nowadays.

2. Oshie, during segments of this season in particular, has disappeared in the scoring department. There hasn't been much of a so called offensive spark since last season. You could argue that it has to do more with his defensive game, but why are we paying him over 3 million dollars just to hustle and backcheck? No thanks.

3. This perspective comes from playing right wing my entire life: the amount of defensive responsibility as a winger is nothing compared to playing center. In the defensive end, the wingers cover 1/4 of the zone by covering one point defender and the high slot area when the puck is on the other side of the rink. Centers have to cover 1/2 of the defensive zone from everything below the hashmarks. You give Oshie way more defensive credit than he deserves. Backes is the one doing the vast majority of the defensive work as the center who is needed to battle behind the net and help the defensemen. The wingers typically just wait near the point and help get the puck out of the zone. This is why wingers typically aren't acknowledged for the Selke trophy. The best 2 way forwards in the game such as Backes, Datsyuk, and Bergeron are Centers who actually have some defensive responsibility. Wingers in hockey have the least amount of defensive responsibility out of any position.

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03-21-2013, 12:26 PM
  #980
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We will not and should not trade Stewart or Oshie. The only reason we'd trade Stewart is because of money and that won't happen till the draft. If we don't get a ridiculous offer sheet, money won't be an issue.

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03-21-2013, 12:29 PM
  #981
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What are the opinions on taking a risk on Kuznetsov in the summer? There seems to be an appetite for a #1C from some fans, and Kuznetsov certain has that potential. If the Capitals were to end up with Nathan MacKinnon/Alexander Barkov at the draft, then they might seriously consider moving Kuznetsov for immediate help on the wing. Wouldn't be cheap, but we'd be buying low on his potential.

LHD is more important, but if we are really wanting a high end offensive #1C, that might be our most realistic chance of being able to acquire it.

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03-21-2013, 12:34 PM
  #982
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Originally Posted by OCTA8ON View Post
I disagree with this post for several reasons.

1. Yes, Oshie hits, but when was the last time he completely laid someone out? Was it Dustin Penner during last year's playoffs? Oshie has monster hits every once in a while, not every night. I rarely see him hit nowadays.

2. Oshie, during segments of this season in particular, has disappeared in the scoring department. There hasn't been much of a so called offensive spark since last season. You could argue that it has to do more with his defensive game, but why are we paying him over 3 million dollars just to hustle and backcheck? No thanks.

3. This perspective comes from playing right wing my entire life: the amount of defensive responsibility as a winger is nothing compared to playing center. In the defensive end, the wingers cover 1/4 of the zone by covering one point defender and the high slot area when the puck is on the other side of the rink. Centers have to cover 1/2 of the defensive zone from everything below the hashmarks. You give Oshie way more defensive credit than he deserves. Backes is the one doing the vast majority of the defensive work as the center who is needed to battle behind the net and help the defensemen. The wingers typically just wait near the point and help get the puck out of the zone. This is why wingers typically aren't acknowledged for the Selke trophy. The best 2 way forwards in the game such as Backes, Datsyuk, and Bergeron are Centers who actually have some defensive responsibility. Wingers in hockey have the least amount of defensive responsibility out of any position.
I'll just highlight that word. There is a vast difference between guys like Hossa, Oshie, Steen, Landeskog, Alfredsson, etc. and guys like Stewart, Kessel, etc.

Oshie, Steen, Hossa, and other top defensive wingers could float, but they don't and that is what makes good defensive teams great.

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03-21-2013, 12:36 PM
  #983
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What are the opinions on taking a risk on Kuznetsov in the summer? There seems to be an appetite for a #1C from some fans, and Kuznetsov certain has that potential. If the Capitals were to end up with Nathan MacKinnon/Alexander Barkov at the draft, then they might seriously consider moving Kuznetsov for immediate help on the wing. Wouldn't be cheap, but we'd be buying low on his potential.

LHD is more important, but if we are really wanting a high end offensive #1C, that might be our most realistic chance of being able to acquire it.
Why would he come to St. Louis? Just because we have Tarasenko doesn't mean much, Washington has Ovechkin.

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03-21-2013, 12:40 PM
  #984
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Why would he come to St. Louis? Just because we have Tarasenko doesn't mean much, Washington has Ovechkin.
He is coming to the NHL after the Olympics, he's made that clear. His decision to stay in the KHL was based on several factors (some of which I disagree with), but he will be coming over.

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03-21-2013, 12:41 PM
  #985
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He is coming to the NHL after the Olympics, he's made that clear. His decision to stay in the KHL was based on several factors (some of which I disagree with), but he will be coming over.
Then Washington will be as likely to trade him as we would Tarasenko. Doubt he'd be available and really doubt that it would be a buying low case.

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03-21-2013, 12:42 PM
  #986
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Yeah, Oshie is still the best (or close to it) reverse hitter in the game. Period.

From last year's Player Usage Charts:

"New coach Ken Hitchcock adopted a classic player usage chart with gifted do-it-all players like Selke finalist David Backes and highly underrated TJ Oshie getting the toughest minutes, followed by David Perron and Patrik Berglund, both of whom occasionally struggled in their more challenging two-way roles. Also on the upper end of forward duties were Vladimir Sobotka, perennially injured Andy McDonald, and another do-it-all player in Alexander Steen.

The easier minutes went to secondary players like Chris Stewart, 36-year-old veteran Jamie Langenbrunner and former 20-goal scorer Matt D'Agostini, with the remaining depth minutes going to 37-year-old defensive-minded pest Scott Nichol ...

It's clear who Hitchcock relies on to do his heavy lifting for the team. It is extremely impressive that David Backes and TJ Oshie performed so well against such difficult competition. Both players registered a positive Relative Corsi rating despite facing the most difficult competition on the team as well as the fewest offensive zone starts.

It's interesting to see that the player usage chart for the Blues takes on more of a linear shape than most of the others. This implies that Hitchcock likes to use his players either against tough competition in their own end or easy competition in the offensive end and there is very little in-between (i.e., high offensive zone start against difficult competition). In theory, this means he trusts his best players to take care defending their own net while he allows the bulk of the offensive action to go to players he trusts less against good competition. This follows pretty well with what is apparent when watching the team, Hitchcock's focus has always been in the defensive zone. He takes care of the defensive end first and then builds from there, and this is obvious in observing the player usage chart."

Someone who says Oshie is not in David Backes' defensive league has a poor understanding of hockey.

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03-21-2013, 12:52 PM
  #987
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Then Washington will be as likely to trade him as we would Tarasenko. Doubt he'd be available and really doubt that it would be a buying low case.
Maybe, maybe not. They'd have Bäckström and MacKinnon/Barkov (only way they'd move him) and know that Kuznetsov wouldn't be over until 2014/15. They might want to get a winger in and try to compete next season.

I didn't say he'd be cheap, I said we'd have a chance to buy low on his potential because we'd have to wait until his KHL season ended.

I'm more in favor of getting a high end #2C in, but others think we need a high end #1C. The only way we can get the latter is by giving up a hell of a lot, or buy taking a calculated risk.

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03-21-2013, 12:53 PM
  #988
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I'll just highlight that word. There is a vast difference between guys like Hossa, Oshie, Steen, Landeskog, Alfredsson, etc. and guys like Stewart, Kessel, etc.

Oshie, Steen, Hossa, and other top defensive wingers could float, but they don't and that is what makes good defensive teams great.
Oshie is a far better defensive player than Stewart. I agree. I won't take any of that from him. He also has very good offensive skills right up there with Stewart, but not the finisher that Stewart is. He does an exceptional job keeping his assignment from shooting at will on the point (needs to work on Schwartz...still my beef with him) and is a very effective backchecker ala Steen, Sobotka, Backes, Berglund, Porter, etc. That's my point. We have guys that do that. I don't advocate trading Oshie. I don't think we would ever get the value that he has to the Blues. Stewart would have more trade value based on the assets he brings to the table. I still think the one to move is Perron though. I think you can win a cup with Stewart and Oshie. Perron I just don't know. I don't advocate trading Oshie or Stewart, unless my socks are totally knocked off. Talking trade and making one are two different things.

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03-21-2013, 12:53 PM
  #989
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
Yeah, Oshie is still the best (or close to it) reverse hitter in the game. Period.

From last year's Player Usage Charts:

"New coach Ken Hitchcock adopted a classic player usage chart with gifted do-it-all players like Selke finalist David Backes and highly underrated TJ Oshie getting the toughest minutes, followed by David Perron and Patrik Berglund, both of whom occasionally struggled in their more challenging two-way roles. Also on the upper end of forward duties were Vladimir Sobotka, perennially injured Andy McDonald, and another do-it-all player in Alexander Steen.

The easier minutes went to secondary players like Chris Stewart, 36-year-old veteran Jamie Langenbrunner and former 20-goal scorer Matt D'Agostini, with the remaining depth minutes going to 37-year-old defensive-minded pest Scott Nichol ...

It's clear who Hitchcock relies on to do his heavy lifting for the team. It is extremely impressive that David Backes and TJ Oshie performed so well against such difficult competition. Both players registered a positive Relative Corsi rating despite facing the most difficult competition on the team as well as the fewest offensive zone starts.

It's interesting to see that the player usage chart for the Blues takes on more of a linear shape than most of the others. This implies that Hitchcock likes to use his players either against tough competition in their own end or easy competition in the offensive end and there is very little in-between (i.e., high offensive zone start against difficult competition). In theory, this means he trusts his best players to take care defending their own net while he allows the bulk of the offensive action to go to players he trusts less against good competition. This follows pretty well with what is apparent when watching the team, Hitchcock's focus has always been in the defensive zone. He takes care of the defensive end first and then builds from there, and this is obvious in observing the player usage chart."

Someone who says Oshie is not in David Backes' defensive league has a poor understanding of hockey.
Sorry -- What do you mean by "reverse hitter"? I'm not sure I've ever heard that phrase.

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03-21-2013, 12:55 PM
  #990
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1. This which player can fight b.s. has got to go. Seriously, that has such a small impact on the value of a player, move on.

I want to add my $.02, to the Oshie/Christ Stewart debate.

2. Stewart before last season was great. This season he has been one of the best players on our team since about game 5 (not to say everyone has been good/better until lately). But not only has Stewart been one of our best players he has been competing and playing at higher lever, for a longer amount of time than I expected. His foot speed is way faster than I thought. He is blowing by people on the ice. If someone took count of which forwards have noticeably made the most of their time on the ice, you'd be hard pressed not to say Stewart. If Stewart really understand what it means to be a pro and part of the Blues, he'll train hard as hell and have another great off season. Which in turn should only bring more success. The things that are really shocking me is how well he is passing and how much improved his forecheck is. Obviously, the condition he is in is giving him more opportunities on the ice. Not only shifts, but I'm saying he is getting to pucks that he wasn't last year and it open up more things to happen. His defense is improving, but it isn't near Oshie's.

3. Oshie is a heart and soul guy. Has a very reasonable contract and will most likely get selke consideration at some point. Very consistent, game in game out. We know what were getting with Oshie. He probably won't ever get more than 60pts playing with Backes, but that really not a big deal.

IMO, Oshie doesn't have much more room for growth. He is already borderline elite defensively and his line just doesn't get the scoring chance need to score 60+when their on the ice. Stewart is showing lots of potential again. It is in the best interest of Blues to keep both Stewart and Oshie. Oshie probably has more value right now if that add anything to the little debate going on. Not to hurt GrandPapillions feelings, but if I were to trade a winger (ideally Amac, but not realistic) it would be Perron. Lots of upside with Perron, but I'm not sure if its worth his antics and blackouts on the ice.

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03-21-2013, 12:58 PM
  #991
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Oshie is a far better defensive player than Stewart. I agree. I won't take any of that from him. He also has very good offensive skills right up there with Stewart, but not the finisher that Stewart is. He does an exceptional job keeping his assignment from shooting at will on the point (needs to work on Schwartz...still my beef with him) and is a very effective backchecker ala Steen, Sobotka, Backes, Berglund, Porter, etc. That's my point. We have guys that do that. I don't advocate trading Oshie. I don't think we would ever get the value that he has to the Blues. Stewart would have more trade value based on the assets he brings to the table. I still think the one to move is Perron though. I think you can win a cup with Stewart and Oshie. Perron I just don't know. I don't advocate trading Oshie or Stewart, unless my socks are totally knocked off. Talking trade and making one are two different things.
Yeah, Oshie fits our system perfectly, Stewart definitely has a place in it, I just don't see how Perron fits. He doesn't have great chemistry IMO with any of our centers, Backes and Berglund are both better with other wingers on our team. Just about all of our forwards prefer to play a direct north-south game and that's not Perron's game.

I think he is a good player, he just doesn't fit.

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03-21-2013, 01:00 PM
  #992
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Sorry -- What do you mean by "reverse hitter"? I'm not sure I've ever heard that phrase.


Watch the oshie chara hit.

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03-21-2013, 01:00 PM
  #993
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Sorry -- What do you mean by "reverse hitter"? I'm not sure I've ever heard that phrase.
Basically when a player comes in to make a hit on you, but you are the one that takes him out. Generating a lot of power from the legs basically, not as easy as Oshie makes it look in game.


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03-21-2013, 01:02 PM
  #994
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Sorry -- What do you mean by "reverse hitter"? I'm not sure I've ever heard that phrase.
When someone comes to hit Oshie, but they end up on their ass because right before the hit, he thrusts his shoulder into their chest.

Perfect example:


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03-21-2013, 01:03 PM
  #995
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I'll just highlight that word. There is a vast difference between guys like Hossa, Oshie, Steen, Landeskog, Alfredsson, etc. and guys like Stewart, Kessel, etc.

Oshie, Steen, Hossa, and other top defensive wingers could float, but they don't and that is what makes good defensive teams great.
No, I don't think I made my point clear enough. The only reason Oshie is considered a good defensive player is because of hit back checking. He doesn't really do much in the defensive end because he is a winger. Winger's jobs are not to go below the hashmarks. They are to cover the point men and get the puck out when the puck comes to their side of the rink. If the puck is on the other side, they cover the high slot area. People here are overrating Oshie's defensive ability because Backes is the one actually doing all of the defensive work as a center. A center has so much more defensive responsibility than a winger.

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03-21-2013, 01:12 PM
  #996
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God Easton, I was in the middle of writing a post and you closed it before I could post. Shame on you.

Well, the reason why Oshie is an elite defensive forward is because of what he does on the forecheck and in the neutral zone. He is one of the best at creating turnovers, thus negating any chance for the opposition and creating another offensive opportunity for us. It is one of the reasons why we are able to get sustained pressure and why we are able to dominate some games. That was the gist of it at least.

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03-21-2013, 01:25 PM
  #997
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God Easton, I was in the middle of writing a post and you closed it before I could post. Shame on you.

Well, the reason why Oshie is an elite defensive forward is because of what he does on the forecheck and in the neutral zone. He is one of the best at creating turnovers, thus negating any chance for the opposition and creating another offensive opportunity for us. It is one of the reasons why we are able to get sustained pressure and why we are able to dominate some games. That was the gist of it at least.
If this post was it, I'll be happy to move it into the other thread for you. There's room for a few more posts in there still.

Heck, maybe I'll just open it back up.


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03-21-2013, 01:27 PM
  #998
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But most of the defensive work comes in the defensive end. In terms of defense percentages

Backes 85% (backchecking, helping the defensemen below the hashmarks and behind the net in the defensive end)

Oshie 15% (backchecking in the neutral zone and very very small amounts in the defensive end)

Oshie's only real defensive credit comes from his backchecking. I don't give Oshie any significant credit for what he does in the defensive end because wingers don't carry much responsibility in that zone, so I don't really think it's fair to give Oshie much defensive credit as a forward because Backes is the one doing all the work.
You can't ignore everything else he does. It is incredibly narrow minded to believe the only good defensive forwards are centers. If it wasn't for Oshie's ability to cause turnovers, the shots we allow would go up, something that our defense gets a lot of credit for.

If he his defense is at he level that you think, then Hitchcock wouldn't make it a point to put him against the tougher competition, and if defense wasn't important for wingers, he wouldn't make it a point to give easier minutes to the forwards that are not as good defensively.

In a concept or theory, yes wingers don't have the same responsibility in the defensive end, but hockey is a 200 foot game.

Using the opposite of your argument, Karlsson is not that valuable because offense isn't that important for a defenseman.

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03-21-2013, 01:29 PM
  #999
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If this post was it, I'll be happy to move it into the other thread for you. There's room for a few more posts in there still.

Heck, maybe I'll just open it back up.

I would greatly appreciate that.

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03-21-2013, 01:32 PM
  #1000
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No, Hitchcock makes it a point to put BACKES against tougher competition. The reason that Oshie is on a line with Backes is because they generally have good chemistry.

As for Karlsson, there is less restriction for defensemen, especially offensive minded defensemen when it comes to different areas of the ice to cover than wingers. Wingers are much more restricted.
So you won't give Oshie credit for any of his takeaways? They obviously don't contribute to our success at all.

Glad you've played hockey before and can label every winger in the same way. We should try to be a great defensive team with wingers like Kessel.

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