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Blues Trade Proposals - Part 5

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Old
03-21-2013, 02:04 PM
  #1
EastonBlues22
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Blues Trade Proposals - Part 5

Part 4

Continue here.

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03-21-2013, 02:09 PM
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Since when did being a physical player require "laying people out" or fighting? Hitting is not necessarily about making the other guy fall to the ice. It's about knocking them off the puck, eliminating a player from the play or even using your body to get better position.

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03-21-2013, 02:11 PM
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"Reverse Hitter" -- Gotcha. Thanks everyone. Should have thought that through.

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03-21-2013, 02:19 PM
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OCTA8ON
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
God Easton, I was in the middle of writing a post and you closed it before I could post. Shame on you.

Well, the reason why Oshie is an elite defensive forward is because of what he does on the forecheck and in the neutral zone. He is one of the best at creating turnovers, thus negating any chance for the opposition and creating another offensive opportunity for us. It is one of the reasons why we are able to get sustained pressure and why we are able to dominate some games. That was the gist of it at least.
But most of the defensive work comes in the defensive end. In terms of defense percentages

Backes 85% (backchecking, helping the defensemen below the hashmarks and behind the net in the defensive end)

Oshie 15% (backchecking in the neutral zone and very very small amounts in the defensive end)

Oshie's only real defensive credit comes from his backchecking. I don't give Oshie any significant credit for what he does in the defensive end because wingers don't carry much responsibility in that zone, so I don't really think it's fair to give Oshie much defensive credit as a forward because Backes is the one doing all the work.

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03-21-2013, 02:20 PM
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CarvinSigX
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Wingers that don't go below the hashmarks are what I typically label defensive zone floaters. How often do you see Perron "covering" the point man? Plenty, because all he's looking to do is have his teammates do the work and he can stand there and wait for the transition to begin. Oshie on the other hand, is much quicker to put pressure on the puck carrier, but what separates the two is Oshie's willingness to cover the middle of the ice. I don't want to hear that crap about covering the point men. You cover them by pressuring the real threat, the forwards, while putting yourself in position to stop the pass to the point.

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03-21-2013, 02:23 PM
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OCTA8ON
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Wingers that don't go below the hashmarks are what we typical label defensive zone floaters. How often do you see Perron "covering" the point man? Plenty, because all he's looking to do is have his teammates do the work and he can stand there and wait for the transition to begin. Oshie on the other hand, is much quicker to put pressure on his man, but what separates the two is Oshie's willingness to cover the middle of the ice. I don't want to hear that carp about covering the point men. You cover them by pressuring the real threat, the forwards, while putting yourself in position to stop the pass to the point.
Are you kidding me? That's the specific area that wingers are designated to cover. They are intended to cover point men AND the high slot area when the puck is on the other side. Wingers that typically go below the hashmarks get grilled at by their coaches because that leaves their designated point men uncovered. I really don't want to have to bring up the whole "have you played hockey thing" again, but this is a fundamental concept that is learned by actually playing under any actual coach.

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03-21-2013, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by OCTA8ON View Post
Are you kidding me? That's the area that wingers are designated to cover. They are intended to cover point men AND the high slot area when the puck is on the other side. Wingers that typically go below the hashmarks get grilled at by their coaches because that leaves their designated point men uncovered.
I'm referring to the one's that simply refuse to help. Oshie is not that guy. Unfortunately, Perron can be.

Edit: And I'm only referring to scenarios that call for support on the boards on that halfwall area...Should be pretty obvious that I'm not talking about below the goal line...

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03-21-2013, 02:30 PM
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You can't ignore everything else he does. It is incredibly narrow minded to believe the only good defensive forwards are centers. If it wasn't for Oshie's ability to cause turnovers, the shots we allow would go up, something that our defense gets a lot of credit for.

If he his defense is at he level that you think, then Hitchcock wouldn't make it a point to put him against the tougher competition, and if defense wasn't important for wingers, he wouldn't make it a point to give easier minutes to the forwards that are not as good defensively.

In a concept or theory, yes wingers don't have the same responsibility in the defensive end, but hockey is a 200 foot game.

Using the opposite of your argument, Karlsson is not that valuable because offense isn't that important for a defenseman.
No, Hitchcock makes it a point to put BACKES against tougher competition. The reason that Oshie is on a line with Backes is because they generally have good chemistry. It's not Oshie's responsibility to shut down the opposing line's forwards except in the neutral zone which Oshie does a solid job, but any forward that is told by a coach to do lots of neutral zone coverage can do the job. He just has to sacrifice a little offense for that. There is a reason why the best 2 way forwards are the centers: Backes, Datsyuk, Bergeron, and Mike Richards. All are centers who do the meat of the defensive role as a forward.

As for Karlsson, there is less restriction for defensemen, especially offensive minded defensemen when it comes to different areas of the ice to cover than wingers. Wingers are much more restricted.

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03-21-2013, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by CarvinSigX View Post
Wingers that don't go below the hashmarks are what we typical label defensive zone floaters. How often do you see Perron "covering" the point man? Plenty, because all he's looking to do is have his teammates do the work and he can stand there and wait for the transition to begin. Oshie on the other hand, is much quicker to put pressure on the puck carrier, but what separates the two is Oshie's willingness to cover the middle of the ice. I don't want to hear that crap about covering the point men. You cover them by pressuring the real threat, the forwards, while putting yourself in position to stop the pass to the point.
What Oshie has done is master the fine line of peeling off his point man, yet not letting his point man shoot. My favorite aspect of his game defensively. A center does have more responsibility, but I wouldn't take it too lightly that Oshie doesn't do a good job defensively. On the negative side, the reverse hitting Oshie needs to stop looking for opportunity to do so as much and focus on making a play more often. He tends to lose the puck making that his favorite move on veteran defensemen that are ready for it.

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03-21-2013, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
So you won't give Oshie credit for any of his takeaways? They obviously don't contribute to our success at all.

Glad you've played hockey before and can label every winger in the same way. We should try to be a great defensive team with wingers like Kessel.
Oshie does forcheck and skate hard in the neutral zone and create occasional turnovers, but it is silly to label him as an "elite defensive forward" when his responsibility as a winger doesn't compare to that of a center. The "elite defensive forwards" are the centers such as Backes, Datsyuk, Bergeron, Mike Richards, Jordan Staal, etc..That's the point I was trying to make.

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03-21-2013, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by OCTA8ON View Post
Oshie does forcheck and skate hard in the neutral zone and create occasional turnovers, but it is silly to label him as an "elite defensive forward" when his responsibility as a winger doesn't compare to that of a center. The "elite defensive forwards" are the centers such as Backes, Datsyuk, Bergeron, Mike Richards, Jordan Staal, etc..That's the point I was trying to make.
That's an incredibly narrow minded view. Oshie is directly responsible in reasons why we have low shots against an why we are then able to have sustained pressure. He is able to contribute to that because of his defensive abilities.

I guess Zetterberg's status as an elite defensive forward changes from time to time.

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03-21-2013, 02:39 PM
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Other thread is full now.

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03-21-2013, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by PerryTurnbullfan View Post
What Oshie has done is master the fine line of peeling off his point man, yet not letting his point man shoot. My favorite aspect of his game defensively. A center does have more responsibility, but I wouldn't take it too lightly that Oshie doesn't do a good job defensively. On the negative side, the reverse hitting Oshie needs to stop looking for opportunity to do so as much and focus on making a play more often. He tends to lose the puck making that his favorite move on veteran defensemen that are ready for it.
I agree with all of that. Oshie is simply more active. I've also made it known that I prefer Perron on his natural wing in his own zone. He doesn't seem confident enough to jump in to support because he's always on his backhand...Makes for too many chip outs (failed transition) and turnovers. It is what it is.

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03-21-2013, 02:41 PM
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Other thread is full now.
Haha, you just became my favorite mod.

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03-21-2013, 03:15 PM
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Well now we know who Strickland's tweet was about last week...

Quote:
Maxime Talbot…

The Flyers are willing to part with Max Talbot and a number of teams are apparently kicking tires here. Several sources suggest St. Louis is one of them.
http://www.truehockey.com/articles/W...us-Blues-Clues

I'd welcome that happening, but then Nichol would probably have to go.

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03-21-2013, 03:24 PM
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CarvinSigX
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Cup winner, center, heart and soul guy? Yes, please.

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03-21-2013, 03:34 PM
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Cup winner, center, heart and soul guy? Yes, please.
I'd like to add him, but at what cost? Gaustad went for a first last season and Talbot is signed for 3 more years...

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03-21-2013, 03:34 PM
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Hate him but he'd be a 4th line winger.

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03-21-2013, 03:40 PM
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I'd be pleased with Talbot. Especially makes sense if they plan on waiving D'Agostini when Oshie returns, as JR suggested in his chat that just concluded.

Also, I found this answer from JR interesting:

Quote:
The Blues haven't thought of Halak as a full-time No. 1 for a long time. He's not a goalie that can handle 55-60 games. Last year, the Blues rotated because it worked to perfection. This year, they are sticking with Allen because he's the only goalie that has proved he can win. As mentioned Halak will start Saturday and if he plays well (as he did for most of the game in Anaheim), he'll earn more time. But at this point, the Blues want Allen in net as much as possible.
If that's true (and I trust JR's positioning to know this), we can't have the most expensive player on the roster (this season) not be good enough to be "The Starter." I'd examine more potential deals like the one I proposed in the last thread with Kiprusoff (given how tiny his salary is next year). Haha, they could roll with Elliott, Kiprusoff AND Allen for Halak's 4.5M salary.

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03-21-2013, 03:52 PM
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Halak, Rattie, and Cole for Kipper and Giordano?

Edit: And Dags and a late pick for Talbot.

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03-21-2013, 03:56 PM
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I suspect that is a bit more educated guessing than any particular inside knowledge from JR. Even what he means by that is questionable. We rotated last season, but even when Elliott had his 3 consecutive shut-outs at the end of March/start of April, it was still pretty clear Jaro was going to be starting in the playoffs.

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03-21-2013, 04:00 PM
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I dreaded that Talbot rumour getting posted on the main board, but to be fair it took longer than I expected for it to turn into something+Talbot for Shattenkirk (22 posts).

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03-21-2013, 04:04 PM
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I dreaded that Talbot rumour getting posted on the main board, but to be fair it took longer than I expected for it to turn into something+Talbot for Shattenkirk (22 posts).
philly fans are fun to post with...ha ha. Just mention Couturier in the deal and duck...

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03-21-2013, 04:15 PM
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philly fans are fun to post with...ha ha. Just mention Couturier in the deal and duck...
It's funny because every time I read through one of their GDT's when they're losing, the same things always pop up: Buyout Bryz, Fire Lavy, and trade Couturier. Multiple occasions this has happened. It's funny to watch them defend him so vigorously on the main board. I guess everyone says silly stuff when they're angry.

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03-21-2013, 04:19 PM
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Other thread is full now.
It never ceases to amaze me all these trade proposals. it's a good thing no one is GM Armstrong I'll add

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