HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Will we ever see a better player than Gretzky? Will we know it?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-21-2013, 07:38 AM
  #726
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,612
vCash: 613
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
I think this player will be better than crosby when he comes along
The question is how much better though. If Crosby keeps this up, which i as a sidenote think he can, he's an absolutely fenomenal offensive player but probably wont even hit 140.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
A 37 year old Wayne Gretzky on his last legs hit 90 points and finished just 12 points behind a prime Jaromir Jagr. This was during the DPE with enormous goalies, the red line, and zero ice space. I can't imagine what a 22 year old Wayne Gretzky would do today.
A 40-year old Selanne scored at the same rate though. Makes you think twice, scoring is not much higher now.

Darth Yoda is offline  
Old
03-21-2013, 07:51 AM
  #727
daver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Norfolk Island
Posts: 2,649
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
No higher than Lindros or Forsberg unless he can do it for full seasons.
That's why I put "If" in there.

daver is online now  
Old
03-21-2013, 08:13 AM
  #728
Merya
Finland u20 Champion
 
Merya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Helsinki
Country: Finland
Posts: 770
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post

A 40-year old Selanne scored at the same rate though. Makes you think twice, scoring is not much higher now.
Rather bad example as there's exactly one player who has (consistently) so far had such high or higher scoring seasons at 35+. Howe.

Merya is offline  
Old
03-21-2013, 08:21 AM
  #729
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,612
vCash: 613
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merya View Post
Rather bad example as there's exactly one player who has (consistently) so far had such high or higher scoring seasons at 35+. Howe.
Someone took Gretzkys 90 points as an 36-37 year old as proof for how he would produce at 22 years old. I hardly think that is the best argument for Gretzky, but rather as i say, a nice thing to think about.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 03-21-2013 at 08:27 AM.
Darth Yoda is offline  
Old
03-21-2013, 08:43 AM
  #730
Sypher04
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 767
vCash: 500
There is really no means of comparison between eras that isn't subjective.

You can say Gretzky's gap on the 2nd was x. Or that his gap over the average was x. But none of these things take into consideration the way the game has changed.

While I agree the Wayne was as dominant a hockey player as we have ever and will likely ever see, the game has simply changed too much to make real comparisons with guys like Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, Steven Stamkos or Alex Ovechkin. I don't believe the game today is in a state where it can be dominated like it was in the 80s. Back then, there was a far greater discrepancy in how players trained and ate, and considered their health. Today's athletes are all built for maximum output. I think maybe Wayne's greatest asset was the fact that he seemed to be ahead of that curve.

The coaching and equipment of the game was also too much different imo.

We ultimately cannot conclude one concrete thing when making these comparisons.

Sypher04 is offline  
Old
03-21-2013, 08:58 AM
  #731
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,858
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
There are so many reasons why 180 points, or 170, is just completely unreasonable. That would make him more dominant now than he was then, and that is NOT going to happen.
So because other people can't keep up, we have to downgrade his potential too?

That being said, I don't see him topping 200 in this environment but even adjusted for average scoring Gretzky has six seasons of 150+ topping out at 170.

Now I tend to point out often that adjusted stats based on average don't work very well on outliers so take that for what you will.

But I think dropping a guy 45 points from his actual peak is a fair bit as a starting point.


Quote:
-he's not going to end up with the modern equivalent of the firewagon Oilers today. That would be like having Kovalchuk on his wing, Karlsson on the blueline, and Malkin as his backup center and PP partner. With the contract he'd earn, pick one, if he's lucky. Crosby has rolled out with serviceable grinders and faded vets his entire career. So forget anything resembling the Gretzky/Kurri connection.
Gretzky scored 200+ points with his second leading scorer being 105. I don't think a younger Gretzky was as reliant on his teammates as you are implying.

He did rely on having a sniper more once he got older, had his back adjusted by Suter, and was more focused on playmaking, though.

Quote:
-it's going to be a lot harder to dominate an NHL with so many more elite players. Lapping Peter Stastny is one thing.... lapping prime Ovechkin, last year's Malkin or this year's Crosby is another thing entirely. He'd be a lock for the Art Ross but if you're expecting him to dominate current Crosby even more than he did to Bossy or Stastny, get a reality check.
Yeah, lapping those sure fire Hall of Famers of yesteryear sure was easy...

Quote:
-less bottom feeder teams an goalies to feast on. Gretzky was not benched when games got out of hand like Crosby usually is. He has always stated that he went for records and didn't hold off. Nowadays, even talent-starved teams have huge goalies and tight defensive systems. You don't see anywhere near as many blowouts anymore.
That is true that Gretzky didn't take many shifts off. But you're overstating Crosby being benched. That is nonsense. The guy has averaged 21 minutes a game over his career.

Secondly, I thought with huge goaltenders, modern defensive systems and blah blah blah that games didn't get out of hand in the first place, right? Wasn't that one of the reasons Gretzky is held back now? Logical whoopsie I guess. That means bionic superhero Crosby doesn't get much of a chance to be benched. You're contradicting yourself.


Quote:
-with the faster game, he's going to have less ice time, shorter shifts, and with modern defensive systems he would have to cheat less offensively...
Gretzky's endurance even at the time was somewhat legendary.

And with his ability to see the play he would most likely take a sledgehammer to modern defensive systems where players play in a very predictable robotic fashion.

As for the faster game.. no one outruns the puck. And no one in the history of hockey knows where the puck is going to be better than Wayne Gretzky.

Quote:
...and actually I think this is the most interesting aspect of imagining Gretzky playing today, moreso than his numbers.... I think he'd be a very effective and interesting defensive player. When I watch his old games, he's pretty Datsyukian with his anticipation and stickwork and backchecks more diligently than posters like Dennis Bonvie would have you believe, but he also spent a lot more time cheating offensively than guys like Crosby or Datsyuk do now, and took risks that wouldn't fly nowadays. He's no idiot and I've love to see how he'd adjust. In a modern system with a team that isn't stacked, we'd see him put his defensive skills to better use.
Perhaps. I think his forechecking and pass interception abilities are already downplayed regularly around here where people say "lol he never played any defense in his life!"

Gretzky definitely wasn't Doug Gilmour out there but he picked a lot of pockets in his day.

Quote:
And no, two-line passes and lessened obstruction aren't going to offset these factors to any significant degree. In fact Gretzky was barely obstructed back then anyway, he was curling away from guys and sneaking behind them and spinning away from them. I just watched the Canucks 50th hat-trick game the other day, in the middle of the deadpuck era, and barely anybody even brushed against him the entire game, he was so good at finding room and staying away from that. He wouldn't be Gretzky if he put himself in a position to be obstructed anyway, think about it. Lemieux was different, he went right at everybody and the Pens had way more PPs than the Oilers as a result.
You do realize the reason he was curling back at the blueline and all that was.. a) because he was obstructed and liked to avoid physical contact and b) to open up space for passing... right?

The obstruction in the game ebbs and flows but you're crazy if you think Gretzky was just having a merry skate out there doing whatever he wanted because everyone let him back in the day..

BraveCanadian is online now  
Old
03-21-2013, 11:34 AM
  #732
revolverjgw
Registered User
 
revolverjgw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,993
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
So because other people can't keep up, we have to downgrade his potential too?
It's not as simple as just considering the "other people" (Crosby as usual being the obvious point of reference). There are so many other factors at play here. Gretzky is the best hockey player ever, but hockey is the ultimate team game and the dynamics in how these teams are structured and the environment they interact in are a LOT different now. He would be affected as everybody else has been, and actually even moreso because of the particular balances and quirks from his era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bc
n adjusted for average scoring Gretzky has six seasons of 150+ topping out at 170.
That adjusted 170 was on the most stacked offensive team of all time in the most offense crazy time in league history playing in a system that gave him so much offensive freedom he literally set a goal for himself to see how many assists he could get, it was damn near a vanity project. And that 170 is adjusted for historical league average, not for today, which is well below average.

So take away Coffey and Kurri and replace them with a reasonable modern alternative... say, Letang/Kunitz or St. Louis/Hedman or Kane/Keith, or god forbid, Moulson/Streit, and adjust his stats for TODAY, and factor in less icetime (covered later this post), and consider that no team today plays a system like the firewagon Oilers and... yeah. He's not getting near that 170.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bc
Gretzky scored 200+ points with his second leading scorer being 105. I don't think a younger Gretzky was as reliant on his teammates as you are implying.
That came in the highest scoring season ever, and while the Oilers weren't "The Oilers" quite yet, they were very, very good. Even before their prime these guys were a better collection of offensive players than any group today, all of them extremely complimentary of each other, and they were ALL about scoring goals, all the time. That might be arguably the best offensive season ever, and certainly it's better anything anybody now could do, but it's not equivalent to 170 today (adjusted it's "only" 156", which sounds high but to me but not as unbelievable as 170).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bc
Yeah, lapping those sure fire Hall of Famers of yesteryear sure was easy...
I didn't say it was easy, they were great and Gretzky worked hard to be much greater. But if one assumes Gretzky would outscore 08 Ovechkin by the same percentage he outscored Stastny in 83 and deduce his point total by that method, like people have been doing, then... just, no, get real. The great mortals that tended to occupy the top 2/3 slots back then, like Michel Goulet and Hawerchuk (and Kurri and Coffey on the Oilers) were all HOFers but they are not '13 Sidney Crosby or '12 Evgeni Malkin. That was a diluted, insular, unbalanced league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bc
That is true that Gretzky didn't take many shifts off. But you're overstating Crosby being benched. That is nonsense. The guy has averaged 21 minutes a game over his career.
What I mean is this- Crosby has ONE point game this season where he scored more than 3 points, a blowout against the Isles, and he played exactly 15 minutes and barely saw the ice in the 3rd period. The Oilers would usually run up the score and Gretzky has gone on record admitting he padded his stats to chase records, and blowouts were more common then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bc
Secondly, I thought with huge goaltenders, modern defensive systems and blah blah blah that games didn't get out of hand in the first place, right? Wasn't that one of the reasons Gretzky is held back now? Logical whoopsie I guess. That means bionic superhero Crosby doesn't get much of a chance to be benched. You're contradicting yourself.
Covered, I never said games can't get out of hand, I said they don't as often as they did back then. That Isles game was the only real blowout the Pens had this season, and they're an elite team. And they rested Crosby rather than let him continue pounding the Isles. It's a different game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bc
Gretzky's endurance even at the time was somewhat legendary.

And with his ability to see the play he would most likely take a sledgehammer to modern defensive systems where players play in a very predictable robotic fashion.

As for the faster game.. no one outruns the puck. And no one in the history of hockey knows where the puck is going to be better than Wayne Gretzky.
He'd definitely be just as able as any other star today to handle big ice time, but it's still not going to be what he used to get. And keep in mind you're not just considering Gretzky's stamina, but also his linemates... and if Crosby is any indication, they're likely going to have to be energy guys, so you can forget about the epic shifts he used to enjoy. His icetime will have to be more carefully managed today. And of course he'd dissect defenses, that's what he does. That's why he'd still win the Art Ross every year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bc
You do realize the reason he was curling back at the blueline and all that was.. a) because he was obstructed and liked to avoid physical contact and b) to open up space for passing... right?

The obstruction in the game ebbs and flows but you're crazy if you think Gretzky was just having a merry skate out there doing whatever he wanted because everyone let him back in the day..
I don't even know how you took that from my statement. Essentially my point was that when I see Gretzky move and skate, I see a guy whose puck movement/time and space management tactics would translate almost 1:1 today, damn near independent of the players covering him. It's not like where Jagr had guys riding him like a donkey and they certainly couldn't do that today... players defending against Gretzky today would basically be left to do the same thing they were doing to defend him in the clutch and grab era. And they weren't "letting him" do his thing, he was the one that wouldn't let them do THEIR thing, which is clutch and grab and mug. Basically a retort against the idea I see thrown around that Gretzky in particular would see an abnormally huge benefit from "the modern rules" that would facilitate further dominance. I don't think he would benefit any more than any other star, nothing that's going to augment his relative dominance. Entirely based on play style.


Last edited by revolverjgw: 03-21-2013 at 11:41 AM.
revolverjgw is offline  
Old
03-21-2013, 11:51 AM
  #733
OrrNumber4
Registered User
 
OrrNumber4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 6,591
vCash: 500
Let me point a statistic out:

When Gretzky went from EDM to LA, LA's scoring went up 18%; EDM's went down by about as much (inversely).

So take a 275-goal team today. Certainly possible? That would be 325 goals. Gretzky was often in on upwards of 50% of his teams' scoring. Crosby has come close to that number in the past, so it is certainly possible. With that 50%, Gretzky would have 162 points, and he wouldn't even be in his prime (though of course not at all near his downfall).

OrrNumber4 is offline  
Old
03-21-2013, 11:57 AM
  #734
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,671
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Essentially my point was that when I see Gretzky move and skate, I see a guy whose puck movement/time and space management tactics would translate almost 1:1 today, damn near independent of the players covering him. It's not like where Jagr had guys riding him like a donkey and they certainly couldn't do that today... players defending against Gretzky today would basically be left to do the same thing they were doing to defend him in the clutch and grab era. And they weren't "letting him" do his thing, he was the one that wouldn't let them do THEIR thing, which is clutch and grab and mug. Basically a retort against the idea I see thrown around that Gretzky in particular would see an abnormally huge benefit from "the modern rules" that would facilitate further dominance. I don't think he would benefit any more than any other star, nothing that's going to augment his relative dominance. Entirely based on play style.

Except that every team is much more reliant on systems today. Systems that concentrate fully on eliminating the high percentage plays.
You ask any coach today if they give a crap about protecting against the perfect play or the perfect pass and they'll tell you straight up that they don't. If making the perfect play/pass is the only way to beat them, they will take those odds any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Goalie's are absolutely no different, everyone plays the percentages now.
Everything is a protect defense now, there is no man on man coverage.

Gretzky would do now exactly what he did in the 80's...he would make the percentages his *****!
Honestly, anyone that would argue against this is either literally a moron or really, truly didn't see what Gretzky did on a nightly basis in his prime.

Now, I'm not saying that Gretzky would put up 200 point seasons today but you can bet your ass his offensive production would be significantly higher than anyone else in the League today, Crosby included.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 03-21-2013 at 12:05 PM.
Rhiessan71 is online now  
Old
03-21-2013, 11:58 AM
  #735
Noldo
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 948
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
If Crosby cant score 160, why would anyone do 200? If Crosby even can get to 150 with some at least solid defense he's right up there all-time as far as i'm concerned. That number remains to be seen though of course.
I would agree that if Crosby manages to score 150 points while rest of the stars remain in 100-120 points range, he would definitely approach the "all-time greats" -category.

However, before we go there:
scoring 150 points > scoring at pace for 150 points > 1.6 points / game pace Crosby is scoring this season and before his injury

Noldo is online now  
Old
03-21-2013, 12:23 PM
  #736
Crease
Registered User
 
Crease's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,430
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrrNumber4 View Post
Let me point a statistic out:

When Gretzky went from EDM to LA, LA's scoring went up 18%; EDM's went down by about as much (inversely).

So take a 275-goal team today. Certainly possible? That would be 325 goals. Gretzky was often in on upwards of 50% of his teams' scoring. Crosby has come close to that number in the past, so it is certainly possible. With that 50%, Gretzky would have 162 points, and he wouldn't even be in his prime (though of course not at all near his downfall).
That's a pretty interesting way of tackling the question. Nice job.

Crease is offline  
Old
03-21-2013, 05:59 PM
  #737
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,457
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Not really, because other than Gretzky & Lemieux during that era no one else could control the game the way they did. When your all offence, who cares about defence? Gretzky was better than Lemieux in that department, absolutely, in fact much either under rated or just not appreciated, misunderstood, but beyond those two, guys who did have to work on & include full on 2 way play, and some damn good ones at that so...



sure thing;

Lanny McDonald
Mike Bossy
Michel Goulet
Denis Savard
Barry Pederson
Marcel Dionne
Bryan Trottier
Dale Hawerchuk
Tim Kerr
Doug Gilmour
John Ogrodnik
etc

all putting up some pretty impressive numbers, two way players to varying degrees...
I was inquiring about offensive players that did not play a two way game.

Poster stated "There were plenty of other top star offensive players going all out offense, paying the same amount of attention to defense that Gretzky did ..."

Those are the "plenty" I wanted to know about. Mario is the only one I recall.

Dennis Bonvie is offline  
Old
03-21-2013, 06:18 PM
  #738
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,671
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I was inquiring about offensive players that did not play a two way game.

Poster stated "There were plenty of other top star offensive players going all out offense, paying the same amount of attention to defense that Gretzky did ..."

Those are the "plenty" I wanted to know about. Mario is the only one I recall.
You‘re kidding right? You actually believe Gretz and Mario were the only stars not playing a 2-way game in the 80‘s.

Dionne was NOT playing 2-way hockey, Hawerchuk was somewhat responsible sometimes. Yzerman was ASKED to play all out offense. Savard did not play 2-way hockey.
I could go on but I think the point is made.

Rhiessan71 is online now  
Old
03-21-2013, 06:28 PM
  #739
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,628
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
-he's not going to end up with the modern equivalent of the firewagon Oilers today. That would be like having Kovalchuk on his wing, Karlsson on the blueline, and Malkin as his backup center and PP partner. With the contract he'd earn, pick one, if he's lucky. Crosby has rolled out with serviceable grinders and faded vets his entire career. So forget anything resembling the Gretzky/Kurri connection.

-it's going to be a lot harder to dominate an NHL with so many more elite players. Lapping Peter Stastny is one thing.... lapping prime Ovechkin, last year's Malkin or this year's Crosby is another thing entirely. He'd be a lock for the Art Ross but if you're expecting him to dominate current Crosby even more than he did to Bossy or Stastny, get a reality check.

-less bottom feeder teams an goalies to feast on. Gretzky was not benched when games got out of hand like Crosby usually is. He has always stated that he went for records and didn't hold off. Nowadays, even talent-starved teams have huge goalies and tight defensive systems. You don't see anywhere near as many blowouts anymore.


...and actually I think this is the most interesting aspect of imagining Gretzky playing today, moreso than his numbers.... I think he'd be a very effective and interesting defensive player. When I watch his old games, he's pretty Datsyukian with his anticipation and stickwork and backchecks more diligently than posters like Dennis Bonvie would have you believe, but he also spent a lot more time cheating offensively than guys like Crosby or Datsyuk do now, and took risks that wouldn't fly nowadays. He's no idiot and I've love to see how he'd adjust. In a modern system with a team that isn't stacked, we'd see him put his defensive skills to better use.
A couple things here, I think we all saw that it didn't really matter who Gretzky had as a linemate. He's 18 years old in 1979-'80 and he cracks 137 points as a rookie. This was the most Marcel Dionne ever got in his career in this particular season. Dionne is one of the most offensive players of all-time and he peaked at 137 - tying Gretzky - and this was Gretzky's rookie season. If that isn't phenomenal enough, look at the guy on his wing. Kurri? Nope. Blair MacDonald. He had 46 goals and 94 points. Just for good measure, he had 45 goals spread out over the next three seasons without Gretzky. There is no Coffey or Kurri here. Glenn Anderson isn't there yet. Messier is a rookie too and has 33 points. The goalies range from Ron Low to Eddie Mio to Dave Dryden. The goals against for this team was 20th in a 21 team league.

Fast forward a year later. Gretzky has 164 points. He blows out Dionne who has 135. It isn't even close. On his own team the next best player is the rookie Kurri with 75. Messier has 63. Anderson 53. Coffey is a rookie and he has 32 points if you want to count that. Mio and Low are more or less the goalies again. Andy Moog plays 7 games and then the playoffs. Grant Fuhr isn't drafted until the summer of that year. In the postseason Gretzky has 21 points in 9 games and literally shreds the Canadiens in the first round. The next best Oiler - Anderson - has 12 points.

So when Gretzky was a mere teenager we saw the kind of damage he could do with a mediocre team and average to below average linemates. In these first two seasons he broke the assist and points record and this was before the Oilers were even a good team. We can all say what a perfect storm it was but even when the other Oilers weren't stars yet we still saw Gretzky as the best player in the game. And he was 19.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Someone took Gretzkys 90 points as an 36-37 year old as proof for how he would produce at 22 years old. I hardly think that is the best argument for Gretzky, but rather as i say, a nice thing to think about.
I don't know about proof so much, but if a broken down Gretzky with a bad back on a bad team scores 90 points in the dead puck era it does sort of set a precedent as to how great he would shred this league today.

Big Phil is offline  
Old
03-21-2013, 06:37 PM
  #740
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,628
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
You‘re kidding right? You actually believe Gretz and Mario were the only stars not playing a 2-way game in the 80‘s.

Dionne was NOT playing 2-way hockey, Hawerchuk was somewhat responsible sometimes. Yzerman was ASKED to play all out offense. Savard did not play 2-way hockey.
I could go on but I think the point is made.
I think you summed it up. It wasn't a whole lot different than today. Not everyone in today's game is Jonathan Toews and Pavel Datsyuk either. Or Crosby for that matter.

In the 1980s I would put Messier, Trottier, Hawerchuk, Kurri as some of the better two-way forwards. Stastny was a guy I would consider to not be a liability but not a Selke winner either. You're right about Savard, he was explosive offensively. Lafontaine was another one.

It wasn't uncommon to go all out offensively when you are scoring that much. Players like Tonelli, Gillies, Goring, Propp, Larmer, Gilmour were players with less offensive talent who also had more defensive responsibilities. However if they played the way Gretzky and Lemieux did no one would have wanted them to. Sort of the same as today, I don't think Ovechkin ever played great defense and no one complained about Malkin either despite not being great defensively. Nash, Stamkos, Lecavalier, Kovalchuk, Kovalev, Heatley, Spezza, Selanne, etc. I wouldn't applaud them for their defense either.

Big Phil is offline  
Old
03-21-2013, 06:37 PM
  #741
SaintPatrick33
Conn Smythe Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,028
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to SaintPatrick33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
A couple things here, I think we all saw that it didn't really matter who Gretzky had as a linemate. He's 18 years old in 1979-'80 and he cracks 137 points as a rookie. This was the most Marcel Dionne ever got in his career in this particular season. Dionne is one of the most offensive players of all-time and he peaked at 137 - tying Gretzky - and this was Gretzky's rookie season. If that isn't phenomenal enough, look at the guy on his wing. Kurri? Nope. Blair MacDonald. He had 46 goals and 94 points. Just for good measure, he had 45 goals spread out over the next three seasons without Gretzky. There is no Coffey or Kurri here. Glenn Anderson isn't there yet. Messier is a rookie too and has 33 points. The goalies range from Ron Low to Eddie Mio to Dave Dryden. The goals against for this team was 20th in a 21 team league.

Fast forward a year later. Gretzky has 164 points. He blows out Dionne who has 135. It isn't even close. On his own team the next best player is the rookie Kurri with 75. Messier has 63. Anderson 53. Coffey is a rookie and he has 32 points if you want to count that. Mio and Low are more or less the goalies again. Andy Moog plays 7 games and then the playoffs. Grant Fuhr isn't drafted until the summer of that year. In the postseason Gretzky has 21 points in 9 games and literally shreds the Canadiens in the first round. The next best Oiler - Anderson - has 12 points.

So when Gretzky was a mere teenager we saw the kind of damage he could do with a mediocre team and average to below average linemates. In these first two seasons he broke the assist and points record and this was before the Oilers were even a good team. We can all say what a perfect storm it was but even when the other Oilers weren't stars yet we still saw Gretzky as the best player in the game. And he was 19.

I don't know about proof so much, but if a broken down Gretzky with a bad back on a bad team scores 90 points in the dead puck era it does sort of set a precedent as to how great he would shred this league today.
Bottom-line is Gretzky wasn't a product of the perfect storm, he WAS the perfect storm.

SaintPatrick33 is online now  
Old
03-21-2013, 06:47 PM
  #742
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 20,733
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Bottom-line is Gretzky wasn't a product of the perfect storm, he WAS the perfect storm.
Or the straw that stirred the storm (to blend a couple of expressions), at the very least.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline  
Old
03-21-2013, 06:48 PM
  #743
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,628
vCash: 500
I will mention another thing here when talking about the Crosby vs. Gretzky comparison. We all know Gretzky had as many or more assists 4 times as the next best player had points. 3 out of those 4 times he also led the NHL in goals. I like what Crosby is doing with a 10 point lead in a shortened season for starters and the fact that he has 37 assists which is 3 away from the highest scoring POINTS leader after him is incredible. However, it is in a shortened season which hurts a bit, and he may not even lead the NHL in assists (although he probably will).

For Crosby to even come close to Gretzky-type of dominance he has to do stuff like this in a full season and score even MORE goals than he has already. What he MAY have done in the 2010-'11 season is a good example of what he needs to do in order to even flirt with the idea that he is in Gretzky's neighbourhood. Now from the eye test alone I can honestly say that Gretzky always seemed to make the right play on the ice where as Crosby has more sloppy moments (eg. a bad pass, should shoot instead of pass on a 2-on-1). I don't think this is something that was mentioned at all as to why Gretzky was the better player, but I think it just shows you how off the charts Gretzky's hockey sense was.

Big Phil is offline  
Old
03-21-2013, 06:52 PM
  #744
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 20,051
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I was inquiring about offensive players that did not play a two way game.
I see. Like just totally flat out offence? Irresponsibly skating crazy 8's between centre & his own blue-line waiting for a feed while his team mates are scrambling all out, pinched basically 5on4? Banging his stick on the ice in frustration waiting for the puck to cough?... cant think of anyone Mr.Bonvie. You? Pavel Bure pulled that act a lot but he wasnt contemporaneous to Gretzky... and what happened to that whole "From Ice to Slice" dealeo with Old Forge Pizza in West Pittston PA? I heard raves about it then bam, gone. Squared pizza pie. Tasty.

Killion is offline  
Old
03-21-2013, 06:53 PM
  #745
SaintPatrick33
Conn Smythe Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,028
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to SaintPatrick33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Or the straw that stirred the storm (to blend a couple of expressions), at the very least.
A mixed metaphor but hey, it works and that's all that matters

SaintPatrick33 is online now  
Old
03-21-2013, 08:28 PM
  #746
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 20,051
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Gretzky would do now exactly what he did in the 80's...he would make the percentages his *****! Honestly, anyone that would argue against this is either literally a moron or really, truly didn't see what Gretzky did on a nightly basis in his prime.
... well said.

Killion is offline  
Old
03-21-2013, 08:40 PM
  #747
jigglysquishy
Registered User
 
jigglysquishy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Regina, Saskatchewan
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,268
vCash: 492
Gretzky lead the league in assists sixteen times, goals five, and points eleven times.

So there were five seasons where he lead the league in both goals AND assists? So let's see what his point totals are since lockout if he JUST ties the goals/assists.

2005-06 56-96-152
2006-07 52-92-144
2007-08 65-67-132
2008-09 56-78-134
2009-10 51-83-134
2010-11 50-75-125
2011-12 60-67-127

So assume he only does it once instead of the five times he did it in real life. Assume he only ties the lead instead of the 43.8% he lead the league in goals/29.0% he lead the league in assists in 81-82. Even if you throw all these things at Gretzky he still crushes the league.

If you take those percentages and apply them to last year Gretzky would do

86-86-172

No matter how you apply numbers (if you maintain real numbers) Gretzky still laps the field.

jigglysquishy is online now  
Old
03-21-2013, 09:47 PM
  #748
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,457
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
You‘re kidding right? You actually believe Gretz and Mario were the only stars not playing a 2-way game in the 80‘s.

Dionne was NOT playing 2-way hockey, Hawerchuk was somewhat responsible sometimes. Yzerman was ASKED to play all out offense. Savard did not play 2-way hockey.
I could go on but I think the point is made.
No, I'm not kidding.

None of those guys were even close to the level of non-defensive play Gretzky & Lemieux exhibited.

Dennis Bonvie is offline  
Old
03-21-2013, 10:18 PM
  #749
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,628
vCash: 500
Gretzky led the NHL in assists 16 times. He started with 13 in a row. With all the talk about the Crosby comparisons and how Gretzky would fare in today's game I think most of us would agree Gretzky would be definitely the NHL's best playmaker again right? Well, one thing about Crosby is that he has never led the NHL in assists. He is doing it this year so long as he holds off St. Louis by the end of the year. You might wonder, well, he was at least on pace to do it right? Well, just once. In 2007-'08 Crosby led the NHL in assists per game and he is doing it again this year. But he has never outright led the NHL in assists.

In Crosby's career we have seen, Thornton (x3), Malkin, and Henrik Sedin (x3) lead in assists. You'd think he'd have done it by now but he hasn't. You would think that if Scott Gomez could accomplish the feat...........

Big Phil is offline  
Old
03-21-2013, 10:49 PM
  #750
VanIslander
Hockey in the blood.
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,342
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sendthepuck View Post
To Be fair. He has been second twice.
To be fair, Crosby doesn't deserve to be in the same sentence as Gretzky unless it's to Sid's detriment.

VanIslander is online now  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:06 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.