HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Subban's play since coming back Part 2

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-18-2013, 09:05 AM
  #276
Kriss E
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 25,734
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
By that logic, PK making more on his next contract will not change a thing either, they can make room later as ou said.
No, that would have been true for this year, on a smaller cap hit. If in 2014, his cap hit goes up by 4M instead of 2M, it becomes more problematic.
This is also under the assumption that Bergevin insisted on a bridge deal because he wanted the space to bring in another player. However he publicly said that he won't blow up a team just to bring in a guy, that he wants to continue with his opinion that rebuilding through the draft is the way to go. We also finished last in the previous year, and nobody thought we'd be at the top of the conference this year, heck some didn't even think we'd be making the POs. So I don't think Bergevin was thinking about creating cap space to bring in a top salary.


Last edited by Kriss E: 03-18-2013 at 09:58 AM.
Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-18-2013, 09:07 AM
  #277
Kriss E
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 25,734
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 24get View Post
Well PK was 38th in ESP last season.
The only difference this year is a higher PPP.
Maybe Subban is partly following Souray's path where Markov makes him a better point producer in PP.
But granted that Subban production at ES is about same pace as last year.
Subban is not following Souray's path. They're not comparable.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-18-2013, 09:33 AM
  #278
Dr Gonzo
#1 Jan Bulis Fan
 
Dr Gonzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bat Country
Posts: 4,409
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by otto bond View Post
Those are great opinion by you and crazynine. I still like bridge deal and shorter terms contract and IMO I would say it keeps players and the game more honest. I have seen it so many time, players signing big deals and falling flat with there performance.
I also beleive that big contract should be handed to players who have been there done that over the years, not to young budding stars, but that's me.
I absolutely respect that position, and obviously Bergevin is a fan of it as well, so it has merit.

I just think for long term planning, it's a low risk/high reward type move.

But hell, I'm no hockey GM, so what do I know?

Dr Gonzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-18-2013, 09:42 AM
  #279
otto bond
Registered User
 
otto bond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,089
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
I absolutely respect that position, and obviously Bergevin is a fan of it as well, so it has merit.

I just think for long term planning, it's a low risk/high reward type move.

But hell, I'm no hockey GM, so what do I know?
Same here, what do we know! Alls we do is talk about it, wheres they(GMs) live it.

otto bond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-18-2013, 10:12 AM
  #280
CrAzYNiNe
Registered User
 
CrAzYNiNe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,099
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to CrAzYNiNe
Quote:
Originally Posted by otto bond View Post
Those are great opinion by you and crazynine. I still like bridge deal and shorter terms contract and IMO I would say it keeps players and the game more honest. I have seen it so many time, players signing big deals and falling flat with there performance.
I also beleive that big contract should be handed to players who have been there done that over the years, not to young budding stars, but that's me.
I watched a lot of football and played Madden in those early years of the cap (late 90s). The thing the NFL has in non-guaranteed contracts, which means before a certain date you can cut a player and his cap hit is removed. Add to that, signing bonuses are very important in the NFL to give the player some security that if he does end up getting cut, he signed and received 20 million the day he put his name to paper, and it will be averaged out like in the NHL. Anyways the NFL cap is more tricky and circumvention is technically allowed.

Back to hockey and my point. I understand that giving players money when they have proven themselves is a safe way of thinking. The problem is, it doesn't change the fact that it's a risk. Without getting into too much detail, Scott Gomez is a great example. He came off a career high in goals and points 2 years before his deal. He was paid by the Rangers for what he did, not what he was going to do (That was and will always be his best year of his career, so it was his highest year in his prime). The Rangers gave him that much money for several reasons. The first was to lure him away from a divisional rival. The second was he was a center they desperately needed. Third, he won a Stanley Cup. What the Rangers did was give a Salary reacting to what he did on the ice, which is the safer way of doing things, unless you sign Scott Gomez.

Rest assured I understand I used a UFA and not an RFA, they are not identical in the way a GM would approach a negotiation.

Now we have PK Subban. He has yet to prove that he is that dominant, #1, scoring defensemen that 30 NHL teams salivate for. Is it that unlikely that a 23 year old, by the time he enters his prime (lets set it's between 27-33) he will not be worth 5.5 million dollars? The top 30 D in the league make at least 4.5 million and that guy is Ron Hainsey. Looking at the list today and even in January, PK is better than a lot of them. (Yes a lot of factors come in to play in a good portion of those players contracts, like UFA status, MVP to their team and maybe not on another, etc.) But at the end of the day, we watch PK play and we know he has all the tools to be that #1 D who scores and shuts down other opponents top lines. He showed flashes of his D talent against Crosby in the playoff as a rookie, he has shown incredible desire to improve. A lot of us, myself included made fun of his shot because it was a dead giveaway, now he seems to of modified it, made his wind up a lot shorter and added a nice fake and move which catches the goalie and player off guard. He is not afraid of criticism, he wants to be the best that he can be.

I believe in Subban, just because I am ready to offer PK Subban a 6 year contract (I like how a 6 year from this year would of brought him into his prime and than we can offer him a 7-8 year deal, starting high and going low), doesn't mean I would do this for any other player. Like I said in another post, AK had a lot of skill, but we questioned his work ethic, his desire, his compete. I was a big fan of his, but I can honestly say that even if he did work hard on the ice (a large misconception that he was a lazy player), it didn't seem to translate into success as he was missing something. Subban is nothing like him, year after year we watch him progress.

I, personally see Subban as a player Montreal needs to keep for his entire career. He seems to fit the mold of the type of player Montreal Canadiens need and that fans love. The pressure doesn't bother him, not like some other players. I think Subban will command 7+ million when this contract is up. If MB can get him on a long term at around 5.5 when this contract is up, he did no harm in my eyes. If he does win the Norris, which could be a long shot, but not an impossibility, he will of earned his high salary.

I could say that Subban at 5.5 for the next 6 years is something I could live with. Even if he isn't the Norris candidate that a lot of us see in him, 5.5 isn't top 3 salary. I just don't seem him faltering. Even if he does make 7, I won't use the argument "What if he declines" because that is counter productive of me saying he will earn it.

I think a player like Subban is worth the risk of going long term early in his career. Not every player can be considered.


Last edited by CrAzYNiNe: 03-18-2013 at 10:25 AM.
CrAzYNiNe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-18-2013, 12:03 PM
  #281
otto bond
Registered User
 
otto bond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,089
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I watched a lot of football and played Madden in those early years of the cap (late 90s). The thing the NFL has in non-guaranteed contracts, which means before a certain date you can cut a player and his cap hit is removed. Add to that, signing bonuses are very important in the NFL to give the player some security that if he does end up getting cut, he signed and received 20 million the day he put his name to paper, and it will be averaged out like in the NHL. Anyways the NFL cap is more tricky and circumvention is technically allowed.

Back to hockey and my point. I understand that giving players money when they have proven themselves is a safe way of thinking. The problem is, it doesn't change the fact that it's a risk. Without getting into too much detail, Scott Gomez is a great example. He came off a career high in goals and points 2 years before his deal. He was paid by the Rangers for what he did, not what he was going to do (That was and will always be his best year of his career, so it was his highest year in his prime). The Rangers gave him that much money for several reasons. The first was to lure him away from a divisional rival. The second was he was a center they desperately needed. Third, he won a Stanley Cup. What the Rangers did was give a Salary reacting to what he did on the ice, which is the safer way of doing things, unless you sign Scott Gomez.

Rest assured I understand I used a UFA and not an RFA, they are not identical in the way a GM would approach a negotiation.

Now we have PK Subban. He has yet to prove that he is that dominant, #1, scoring defensemen that 30 NHL teams salivate for. Is it that unlikely that a 23 year old, by the time he enters his prime (lets set it's between 27-33) he will not be worth 5.5 million dollars? The top 30 D in the league make at least 4.5 million and that guy is Ron Hainsey. Looking at the list today and even in January, PK is better than a lot of them. (Yes a lot of factors come in to play in a good portion of those players contracts, like UFA status, MVP to their team and maybe not on another, etc.) But at the end of the day, we watch PK play and we know he has all the tools to be that #1 D who scores and shuts down other opponents top lines. He showed flashes of his D talent against Crosby in the playoff as a rookie, he has shown incredible desire to improve. A lot of us, myself included made fun of his shot because it was a dead giveaway, now he seems to of modified it, made his wind up a lot shorter and added a nice fake and move which catches the goalie and player off guard. He is not afraid of criticism, he wants to be the best that he can be.

I believe in Subban, just because I am ready to offer PK Subban a 6 year contract (I like how a 6 year from this year would of brought him into his prime and than we can offer him a 7-8 year deal, starting high and going low), doesn't mean I would do this for any other player. Like I said in another post, AK had a lot of skill, but we questioned his work ethic, his desire, his compete. I was a big fan of his, but I can honestly say that even if he did work hard on the ice (a large misconception that he was a lazy player), it didn't seem to translate into success as he was missing something. Subban is nothing like him, year after year we watch him progress.

I, personally see Subban as a player Montreal needs to keep for his entire career. He seems to fit the mold of the type of player Montreal Canadiens need and that fans love. The pressure doesn't bother him, not like some other players. I think Subban will command 7+ million when this contract is up. If MB can get him on a long term at around 5.5 when this contract is up, he did no harm in my eyes. If he does win the Norris, which could be a long shot, but not an impossibility, he will of earned his high salary.

I could say that Subban at 5.5 for the next 6 years is something I could live with. Even if he isn't the Norris candidate that a lot of us see in him, 5.5 isn't top 3 salary. I just don't seem him faltering. Even if he does make 7, I won't use the argument "What if he declines" because that is counter productive of me saying he will earn it.

I think a player like Subban is worth the risk of going long term early in his career. Not every player can be considered.
I understand your thinking and agree, still I like bridge deal. I also like short term contract(3-4 years) better. The Gomez contract was way out of the park in terms of money, lenght and the player involved.
It's all about ricks and reward, either way can be great or a total bust.

otto bond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-18-2013, 12:11 PM
  #282
Drydenwasthebest
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,961
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Bad example, Flyers are worse because they never replaced Pronger and count on an aging Timmonen to take the lead on D... players they acquired in the Carter/Richards trade are doing just fine.

Besides, we arent doing all that bad with Prust, Bouillon and Armstrong.
Oh, I definitely agree. However, I think you are not giving Markov and Gionta enough credit. Eller as well has risen above expectations. There are multiple reasons we are doing better this year than last year. That is why I kept telling people last year that it was an aberration, not a "sky-is-falling" type of scenario. We needed Markov and Gionta back, a couple of grit and character guys, and a stable management team, and we would have been fine.

I am not saying getting new players is bad, I am saying it is not necessarily good. Ask Buffalo how they feel about the Leino and Erhoff signings since those happened as opposed to when they immediately happened.

Oh, and while losing Pronger hurts, he is just one player. Add his loss to that of Carter, Richards AND JvR and that is why the Flyers are falling. Couturier is no Mike Richards. Schenn is no Carter. Yes, SImmonds and Voracek are doing well (Voracek is doing AMAZING!), but the team is still worse than it was...so far. Since the trades, Philly has gotten worse. LA has won a Cup. Sometimes adding players works...sometimes it doesn't...and other times it takes time. Right now? Philly has lost, LA has clearly won. It gets even worse if Philly doesn't even make the playoffs and LA does, this season.

Drydenwasthebest is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-20-2013, 10:12 AM
  #283
Lafleurs Guy
Moderator
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 26,681
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
that is pretty much the best case scenario at this point...


but from PK's pov, the only reason to accept a deal at anything less than market premium on an extension signed before this contract expires is the risk of injury (or if he really does love playing for Montreal to the point of leaving more money on the table).

Can't see him accepting a deal at what they were rumoured to be asking for (4.5-5.5 range), but if MB comes at him with a mid-term deal (~4years) @ ~6M$, I could see him settling for that.

If they don't get the extension done before that window closes, i'll be worried about what the 2014 stand-off will look like, cuz it will signal that he's looking for top-dollar, and either way MB & the team will come out of it worse off than if we had done the deal that was there in January...
6 years at 36... He gets his immediate raise plus we compensate him for being underpaid this year. Makes a lot of sense to me. I'd offer it and hope he signs.

Otherwise in two years it's probably going to be 8 mil per year.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-20-2013, 10:37 AM
  #284
hogtownhabsfan*
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,727
vCash: 500
Subban had his first bad game of the year last night. Oh well happens to the best I guess.

hogtownhabsfan* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-20-2013, 11:27 AM
  #285
JMMR
Registered User
 
JMMR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kingston
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,359
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to JMMR Send a message via Yahoo to JMMR
Quote:
Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
Subban had his first bad game of the year last night. Oh well happens to the best I guess.
He had a worse game against Ottawa.

JMMR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 09:36 PM
  #286
Zorro
Registered User
 
Zorro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 358
vCash: 500
Will he beat his record of 14 goals? He's at 9 presently...on pace for 30 goals over 82 games!!

Zorro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 09:58 PM
  #287
Nicko999
Registered User
 
Nicko999's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,820
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorro View Post
Will he beat his record of 14 goals? He's at 9 presently...on pace for 30 goals over 82 games!!
Image if he didn't miss the first 6 games? He and Markov are the PP.

Nicko999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 10:01 PM
  #288
Montreal Shadow
Registered User
 
Montreal Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,136
vCash: 500
Shaky game against Buffalo. Comes back strong tonight.

Montreal Shadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 10:04 PM
  #289
Habsfan18
Registered User
 
Habsfan18's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,626
vCash: 500
And just like many of us said, we likely could have signed him for around 5 per...and now he will cost us 6-6.5 per.

As much as I've loved the work Bergevin has done, this one I didn't understand.

Oh well, as long as he's a long term Canadien.

__________________
Interested in checking out 50+ years worth of covers from "The Hockey News?" Check out my collection here: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1382901
Habsfan18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 10:07 PM
  #290
Beaker
In My Lab Goggles
 
Beaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: In The Lab.
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,473
vCash: 500
What I'm really thinking when I watch PK light up the scoreboard game after game.


Beaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 10:34 PM
  #291
bib
#believe
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 3,488
vCash: 500
Not that impressed with Therrien telling the media he would "rectify the situation" or whatever he said (concerning PKs decision to go for the hit in OT against Buffalo).

Therrien was trying too hard to be a tough guy. Just deal with that stuff behind the scenes.

Dislike when coaches call players out like that, especially when they're playing well. Was uncalled for.


Anyhow, just some small constructive criticism for MT.

bib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 10:35 PM
  #292
Kriss E
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 25,734
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsfan18 View Post
And just like many of us said, we likely could have signed him for around 5 per...and now he will cost us 6-6.5 per.

As much as I've loved the work Bergevin has done, this one I didn't understand.

Oh well, as long as he's a long term Canadien.
To be so sure on that it will only be that much. The more games he plays, the less anybody has bad things to say. I have a hard time understanding how he wouldn't be in the finalists for the Norris at this point. He's just a beast out there.
With the new rules, there's no more front loading. I wouldn't be surprised if it went up to 7M+, especially if it's done in summer 2014.
Bergevin hopefully is already in negotiations with him on signing an extension as soon as he's permitted to do so.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 10:39 PM
  #293
Kriss E
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 25,734
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bib View Post
Not that impressed with Therrien telling the media he would "rectify the situation" or whatever he said (concerning PKs decision to go for the hit in OT against Buffalo).

Therrien was trying to hard to be a tough guy. Just deal with that stuff behind the scenes.

Dislike when coaches call players out like that, especially when they're playing well. Was uncalled for.


Anyhow, just some small constructive criticism for MT.
I understand if it was warranted. It's not like he unleashed on PK in the media. But the issue is it shouldn't even have been a penalty in the first place, and if it was, we're talking about a kid that could very well end up being a Norris finalist, so maybe you can cut the kid some slack. It's not like he's been bad.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 10:42 PM
  #294
bib
#believe
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 3,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I understand if it was warranted. It's not like he unleashed on PK in the media. But the issue is it shouldn't even have been a penalty in the first place, and if it was, we're talking about a kid that could very well end up being a Norris finalist, so maybe you can cut the kid some slack. It's not like he's been bad.
Agreed.

MT needs to pick his battles better.

bib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 10:53 PM
  #295
groovejuice
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,888
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsfan18 View Post
And just like many of us said, we likely could have signed him for around 5 per...and now he will cost us 6-6.5 per.

As much as I've loved the work Bergevin has done, this one I didn't understand.

Oh well, as long as he's a long term Canadien.
I think you also need to look at how this signing impacted the cap for next near, whatever money we lose on the front end of the next one will be gained on the back end for the same reason, and we get an extra 2 UFA years at least.


Last edited by groovejuice: 03-21-2013 at 11:20 PM.
groovejuice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 10:55 PM
  #296
hockeyfan2k11
Registered User
 
hockeyfan2k11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 9,223
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bib View Post
Not that impressed with Therrien telling the media he would "rectify the situation" or whatever he said (concerning PKs decision to go for the hit in OT against Buffalo).

Therrien was trying too hard to be a tough guy. Just deal with that stuff behind the scenes.

Dislike when coaches call players out like that, especially when they're playing well. Was uncalled for.


Anyhow, just some small constructive criticism for MT.
Agreed.

hockeyfan2k11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 11:00 PM
  #297
SouthernHab
Not a Fanboy
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 12,375
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bib View Post
Not that impressed with Therrien telling the media he would "rectify the situation" or whatever he said (concerning PKs decision to go for the hit in OT against Buffalo).

Therrien was trying too hard to be a tough guy. Just deal with that stuff behind the scenes.

Dislike when coaches call players out like that, especially when they're playing well. Was uncalled for.


Anyhow, just some small constructive criticism for MT.
And Subban responds with a two goal game.

What Therrien did is bad how?

There is what a coach says to the media. And then there is what a coach says to the player when no one is around. You heard the media version. You have no idea what was said in the locker room.

And evidently, what was said was not detrimental to PK Subban whatsoever.

Loving how PK is playing this season!!

SouthernHab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 11:01 PM
  #298
groovejuice
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,888
vCash: 500
An interesting side note, for those on twitter. I'm sure you've noticed the total disappearance of PK's tweets that are provocative, flirtatious or just annoying - like that ridiculous "Joel" thing.

Most are team or sponsor related.

I take back my previous leash comments and amend them to "reined in".

groovejuice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 11:06 PM
  #299
bib
#believe
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 3,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
And Subban responds with a two goal game.

What Therrien did is bad how?

There is what a coach says to the media. And then there is what a coach says to the player when no one is around. You heard the media version. You have no idea what was said in the locker room.

And evidently, what was said was not detrimental to PK Subban whatsoever.

Loving how PK is playing this season!!
Subban's been great all season, so the fact that Therrien didn't throw PK off his game is proof that Therrien did the right thing? Don't agree.

bib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2013, 11:15 PM
  #300
SouthernHab
Not a Fanboy
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 12,375
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bib View Post
Subban's been great all season, so the fact that Therrien didn't throw PK off his game is proof that Therrien did the right thing? Don't agree.
Subban is not above the coach.

You might believe that. Thank goodness that Subban does not believe that.

Edit........Now that I re-read your post, it appears that you are insinuating that Therrien TRIED to throw PK off of his game.

Do you really believe that?

I have a funny feeling.............I could be wrong though..........that Coach Therrien sort of wants his players to do better and for his team to win with all the players contributing by playing Therriens system.

SouthernHab is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:25 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.