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Hopefully gain some insight on Makarov

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Old
03-20-2013, 05:21 PM
  #1
Sony Eriksson*
 
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Hopefully gain some insight on Makarov

What is the deal with the HHOF passing over Makarov year after year? I mean this guy was arguably the best player on the Soviet team during the 80's. Is it the lack of NHL experience that he has that prevents him from being selected?

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03-20-2013, 05:48 PM
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Because International hockey doesnt mean much to the Hall of Fame.

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03-20-2013, 09:24 PM
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Sentinel
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Just look at the Top 70 list on this board...

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03-21-2013, 12:59 AM
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The HHOF has a good ole boy mentality. Apart from a few token members, I don't think the Soviet greats will get their proper recognition any time soon.

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03-21-2013, 01:50 AM
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Just look at the Top 70 list on this board...
I'd like to see your top 70 before you mock what others have worked very hard on to complete.

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03-21-2013, 02:10 AM
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Well, Danny Gallivan declared him "Holy." That's better than the HHOF. I mean how many hockey players have been cannonized by the man with the cannonating voice?

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03-21-2013, 06:10 AM
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A disgrace that he isn't properly recognized. He was much better than Larionov, who got in because he had more pretty good years in the NHL.

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03-21-2013, 10:03 PM
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He is not in because of a lack of an NHL career. However, he was 31 when he was allowed to play in the NHL. But that being said both Kharlamov and Tretiak are in the HHOF despite never playing a game in the NHL. I realize that a lot of that has to do with impact and 1972 and such, but you could argue that Makarov was the best Russian to ever lace up a pair of skates. Fetisov and Larionov won Cups with Detroit in the NHL and that helps their cause but in all honesty neither was a great NHLer. Fetisov wasn't even close to winning a Norris and Larionov was a shadow of his former self once he hit the NHL. I don't see why they are in and Makarov isn't. It isn't as if Larionov was a star in the NHL.

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03-21-2013, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
you could argue that Makarov was the best Russian to ever lace up a pair of skates.
Agreed.
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It isn't as if Larionov was a star in the NHL.
Disagreed. He led the Sharks in points once and was absolutely integral to Detroit's success in the late 90s.

But certainly the # of Cups have something to do with selecting them over Makarov.

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03-21-2013, 11:42 PM
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He has been enshrined in the IIHF HoF for over a decade, which is appropriate and a "no-brainer". As great as he was, though, you have to do more in the NHL to get into its HoF. Bure, for all his talent AND obscene number of goals, is still waiting, for example, and we're forced to acknowledge that championships (or lack thereof) weigh heavily for those who don't have standout seasons and/or statistical accumulation.

Talent was absolutely deserving, NHL resume isn't, imo.

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03-21-2013, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
He has been enshrined in the IIHF HoF for over a decade, which is appropriate and a "no-brainer". As great as he was, though, you have to do more in the NHL to get into its HoF. Bure, for all his talent AND obscene number of goals, is still waiting, for example, and we're forced to acknowledge that championships (or lack thereof) weigh heavily for those who don't have standout seasons and/or statistical accumulation.

Talent was absolutely deserving, NHL resume isn't, imo.
Bure is in. He was inducted last year.

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03-21-2013, 11:49 PM
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He is not in because of a lack of an NHL career. However, he was 31 when he was allowed to play in the NHL. But that being said both Kharlamov and Tretiak are in the HHOF despite never playing a game in the NHL. I realize that a lot of that has to do with impact and 1972 and such, but you could argue that Makarov was the best Russian to ever lace up a pair of skates. Fetisov and Larionov won Cups with Detroit in the NHL and that helps their cause but in all honesty neither was a great NHLer. Fetisov wasn't even close to winning a Norris and Larionov was a shadow of his former self once he hit the NHL. I don't see why they are in and Makarov isn't. It isn't as if Larionov was a star in the NHL.
Larionov received votes for the Hart and the center all-star position in 1993-94, and he received Selke votes that year and in other years.
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
He has been enshrined in the IIHF HoF for over a decade, which is appropriate and a "no-brainer". As great as he was, though, you have to do more in the NHL to get into its HoF. Bure, for all his talent AND obscene number of goals, is still waiting for example, and we're forced to acknowledge that championships (or lack thereof) weigh heavily for those who don't have standout seasons and/or statistical accumulation.

Talent was absolutely deserving, NHL resume isn't, imo.
Bure got in last year. The thing is, it's not the "NHL Hall of Fame" despite the way it's treated by many. It's the Hockey Hall of Fame. And it has recognized those who never even had the opportunity to play in the NHL, such as Kharlamov, Tretiak, and Granato. Larionov and Fetisov are in mainly for their Soviet careers; their NHL careers do not stand alone and make it to the Hall. Makarov was the best Russian forward of his era, and arguably ever. So it stands to reason that if his old linemate Larionov is in, and he is/was generally considered superior to Larionov, he should get in as well.


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03-21-2013, 11:57 PM
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Bure is in. He was inducted last year.
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Bure got in last year.
Uh, yeah... let's pretend that I didn't just step in from the patio right then, and that I said "had to wait, like, a decade" instead.

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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
The thing is, it's not the "NHL Hall of Fame" despite the way it's treated by many. It's the Hockey Hall of Fame. And it has recognized those who never even had the opportunity to play in the NHL, such as Kharlamov, Tretiak, and Granato. Larionov and Fetisov are in mainly for their Soviet careers; their NHL careers do not stand alone and make it to the Hall. Makarov was the best Russian forward of his era, and arguably ever. So it stands to reason that if his old linemate Larionov is in, and he is/was generally considered superior to Larionov, he should get in as well.
That's true. You've got me leaning back the other way a bit there, even if Fetisov and Larionov have multiple Cup rings each, and had kind of long NHL careers for me to consider as part of the package you put together there..

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03-22-2013, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Just look at the Top 70 list on this board...
What about the top 70 list on this board?

Every player above him is in the HHOF or is a lock for it....


i.e. everybody knows he should be in.

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03-22-2013, 08:42 AM
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What about the top 70 list on this board?

Every player above him is in the HHOF or is a lock for it....

i.e. everybody knows he should be in.
I was just making a point that he is underrated, both here and in the HOF. One of Top 10 of All Time.

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03-22-2013, 08:48 AM
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Just look at the Top 70 list on this board...
Have you seen the recent Bossy v. Makarov poll? It was even and Bossy is ranked 29th, so the opinion has changed a lot since 2009.

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03-22-2013, 09:40 AM
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29 is still too low. I maintain that the Soviet players were only a tad below their Canadian counterparts and should be represented accordingly. In case of Makarov, we are talking about a 9 time scoring leader in the Soviet Elite League, 3 time Best Player Award (over Krutov et al), who excelled at the international level (including the CC81 and 87, with the highest PPG against Canada and NHL clubs of all Soviet players) and, unlike some other Soviet stars, had a seamless transition to the NHL.

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03-22-2013, 09:55 AM
  #18
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Originally Posted by Tattoo View Post
What is the deal with the HHOF passing over Makarov year after year? I mean this guy was arguably the best player on the Soviet team during the 80's. Is it the lack of NHL experience that he has that prevents him from being selected?


I think the best Soviet player in the 80s was Fetisov. He's their Bobby Orr.

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03-22-2013, 09:59 AM
  #19
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A couple of additional points. It's puzzling to me why North American stars of the 20s and 30s are ranked high by their achievements in comparison to their contemporaries, and Soviet players are not. The situations are almost identical, except the Soviets, on a few occasions, can be evaluated on their play against North Americans, and the stars of 20s and 30s obviously cannot (except Howe... j/k).

Makarov is also woefully underappreciated in Russia. He barely cracks Top 10 Soviet players in the court of public opinion (among the people I spoke to), ranking behind, not just Kharlamov and Tretiak, but also behind Larionov and even perennial underachiever Maltsev! His jersey is not retired by CSKA. I attribute this to several factors, one of them being this. Europeans (Russians included) always valued the beauty and poetry of the game no less than the actual results and especially statistics (they call North American approach "the cult of statistics"). This in part stems from soccer, where a player can sometimes accomplish absolutely nothing, as an individual or as part of a team, and yet be revered for his "art." Kharlamov and Maltsev were viewed as "artists," and Makarov was not (in spite of being a highlight reel): he was viewed as a part of Tikhonov's machine and less artistic than, say Larionov. Which is very unfair.

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03-22-2013, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Makarov is also woefully underappreciated in Russia. He barely cracks Top 10 Soviet players in the court of public opinion (among the people I spoke to), ranking behind, not just Kharlamov and Tretiak, but also behind Larionov and even perennial underachiever Maltsev! His jersey is not retired by CSKA. I attribute this to several factors, one of them being this. Europeans (Russians included) always valued the beauty and poetry of the game no less than the actual results and especially statistics (they call North American approach "the cult of statistics"). This in part stems from soccer, where a player can sometimes accomplish absolutely nothing, as an individual or as part of a team, and yet be revered for his "art." Kharlamov and Maltsev were viewed as "artists," and Makarov was not (in spite of being a highlight reel): he was viewed as a part of Tikhonov's machine and less artistic than, say Larionov. Which is very unfair.
Some interesting notions.

Having seen and watched games from the 1970s and 1980s, for me there really is no debate about Maltsev and Makarov; Makarov wins 100-0. Also, IMO there isn't much separating Makarov and Kharlamov, if anything at all. I know that many Russian old-timers are pretty adamant about it; i.e. "Kharlamov was way better!" (NO HE WASN'T)

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03-22-2013, 11:17 AM
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I fully expect Makarov to make a massive jump next time a list is done. I never took part in the last one, and I have Makarov in my top 25.

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03-22-2013, 11:22 AM
  #22
pdd
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I fully expect Makarov to make a massive jump next time a list is done. I never took part in the last one, and I have Makarov in my top 25.
I haven't made a complete list recently (just a top-10ish list), but I can say I would have Makarov pretty highly; I have him ranked 8th among RW (Hull is 9th, Selanne is 10th). Makarov and the guys immediately above him (Kurri and Bathgate) are probably interchangeable; I'm also kind of flip-flopish on 4/5 (Bossy/Lafleur, as you might have guessed).

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03-22-2013, 11:33 AM
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I definitely rank Makarov above Bossy. Their peaks are comparable, Makarov's prime lasted a decade, and he had a longer career. 3 MVPs, 9 scoring titles. Makarov also beat him face to face.


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03-22-2013, 11:42 AM
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29 is still too low. I maintain that the Soviet players were only a tad below their Canadian counterparts and should be represented accordingly. In case of Makarov, we are talking about a 9 time scoring leader in the Soviet Elite League, 3 time Best Player Award (over Krutov et al), who excelled at the international level (including the CC81 and 87, with the highest PPG against Canada and NHL clubs of all Soviet players) and, unlike some other Soviet stars, had a seamless transition to the NHL.
29 is too low? I haven't completed my list yet, but I don't see Messier going higher than that spot based on his center rank.

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03-22-2013, 02:04 PM
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Makarov was also better than Messier.

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