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Old
03-22-2013, 01:07 PM
  #626
SephF
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Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
Did anybody catch Colby Cosh's comments re: first responders on twitter yesterday? Pretty callous.
No, you should post it.

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03-22-2013, 01:16 PM
  #627
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I'm posting from my phone, so, in a nut shell he RT'd somebody who was giving first responders and ER crews props for "going above and beyond" and the spent several tweets debasing that person. He said they shouldn't be recognized as going above and beyond for just doing their job.

Very bizarre hill to die on, and unless he's deleted the tweets they will still be in his time line.

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03-22-2013, 01:16 PM
  #628
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Unfiortunately in some road surfaces ABS actually increases required stopping distance. Which is poorly understood and rarely stated. The public basically isn't properly informed on some of the technology.

In anycase ABS is an arguably poor replacement for drivers that properly learned to pump brakes and inately do that.

Also, why is it just assumed that people know how to properly utilize ABS brakes. Its not in my drivers manual. With ABS you DON'T pump brakes. Which is fine for new drivers that never learned the habit. But put seasoned drivers out there with ABS brakes and guess what they inately do wnen needing to stop quick. Pump brakes, which is the worst thing you can do with ABS brakes.
Funny how Pumping breaks is actually faulty on it's own. If you've ever taken a winter driving course that's one of the first things they tell you. Don't pump your breaks.. threshold break.

You can still threshold break with ABS... so slamming on ABS breaks isn't the correct thing to do either.. it's definately the easier thing to do.

Reading this thread the whole city should take a winter driving course. Pumping the breaks... that's some good 70's driving skills right there.. sheesh.

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03-22-2013, 01:17 PM
  #629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
I'm posting from my phone, so, in a nut shell he RT'd somebody who was giving first responders and ER crews props for "going above and beyond" and the spent several tweets debasing that person. He said they shouldn't be recognized as going above and beyond for just doing their job.

Very bizarre hill to die on, and unless he's deleted the tweets they will still be in his time line.
isn't he another ex-Edmontonian living in Toronto like mc79?

what's with these guys?

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03-22-2013, 01:19 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by Lacaar View Post
Funny how Pumping breaks is actually faulty on it's own. If you've ever taken a winter driving course that's one of the first things they tell you. Don't pump your breaks.. threshold break.

You can still threshold break with ABS... so slamming on ABS breaks isn't the correct thing to do either.. it's definately the easier thing to do.

Reading this thread the whole city should take a winter driving course. Pumping the breaks... that's some good 70's driving skills right there.. sheesh.
Of course for whatever reason you assumed that my use of the term "pumping brakes" didn't include a knowledge of threshold braking.

sheesh.

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03-22-2013, 01:23 PM
  #631
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Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
I haven't been home, to Westlock, in 3 days, this is going to suck.

I'd like someone to explain to me how the EIA had half the amount of snow as Leduc. I live in Leduc and can see the south runway of the airport from my backyard and it appears they had just as much snow but I guess there must have been a bit of a gap in the clouds there.


Last edited by Reimer: 03-22-2013 at 01:39 PM.
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03-22-2013, 01:25 PM
  #632
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Originally Posted by The Last Dynasty View Post
isn't he another ex-Edmontonian living in Toronto like mc79?

what's with these guys?
I don't know about where he lives, but I know an editor of macleans magazine should probably keep those opinions to himself if he gives a **** about his public image and reputation.

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03-22-2013, 01:25 PM
  #633
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Originally Posted by Reimer View Post
I'd like someone to explain to me how the EIA had half the amount of snow as Leduc. I live in Leduc and can see the south runway of the airport from my backyard and it appears they ahd just as much snow but I guess there must ahve been a bit of a gap in the clouds there.
I thought it was because the airport is in a big open field and all the snow blew off on to Leduc.

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03-22-2013, 01:30 PM
  #634
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Yet theres no conclusive substantiation that this is actually the case. More study is required to come to this conclusion.
Seriously, you don't think winter tires are beneficial? You remind me of the people decades ago who said there is no evidence that smoking cigarettes is harmful.

Who needs a study? I can tell the people who don't have snow tires. They're the ones slip sliding all over the road. Like the woman last week whose tires were spinning as she tried to start out at a green light while making a left turn. It took her three light changes before she could make her turn.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but the part quoted is wrong.

And I'm not saying snow tires are the only solution, but they help a lot.

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03-22-2013, 01:36 PM
  #635
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Originally Posted by OneMoreAstronaut View Post
Anybody on the QE2 or out Spruce Grove way today? How are the roads?
I drove in from Leduc today. QE2 is better than it was last night when I drove home around 7pm however it was still pretty dicey with patches of ice here and there and then still entire sections that was just ice for like 150m or so.

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03-22-2013, 01:42 PM
  #636
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Originally Posted by Leman Russ View Post
Would be nice if you posted them!

All I need to survive this weather is FWD and winter tires.
I don't think my 2002 Sentra has traction control or ABS.
I had an 03 SpecV. It was a curling stone on icy roads when I'd pump/throttle the brakes. ABS is better, driving super slow is best, haha.

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03-22-2013, 01:47 PM
  #637
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I don't like ABS. It increases my stopping distance on black ice and while its good to have, its only good in perfect ideal situations that never happen (lots of road, no cars around you, lots of distance). In the city, it makes your situation worse, because you now cant stop in time, and its not like you can legally steer into another car to dodge the car infront of you.
Unless you're on a soft surface (note: snow is one), a modern ABS system will typically stop your car faster than locking up your tires.

Locking up your tires on a soft surface like snow or gravel can help stop your car because there will be a build up of material in front of the tires that helps slow the car.

Nevermind that once your tires lock up, the possibility of your car inducing a spin goes up as well.


I have only had a car with ABS for two months now, but I greatly prefer it to my older car that didn't have it.

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03-22-2013, 01:48 PM
  #638
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Originally Posted by Psycho Dad View Post
I had an 03 SpecV. It was a curling stone on icy roads when I'd pump/throttle the brakes. ABS is better, driving super slow is best, haha.
Pretty much this.

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03-22-2013, 01:54 PM
  #639
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Originally Posted by MoneyGuy View Post
Seriously, you don't think winter tires are beneficial? You remind me of the people decades ago who said there is no evidence that smoking cigarettes is harmful.

Who needs a study? I can tell the people who don't have snow tires. They're the ones slip sliding all over the road. Like the woman last week whose tires were spinning as she tried to start out at a green light while making a left turn. It took her three light changes before she could make her turn.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but the part quoted is wrong.

And I'm not saying snow tires are the only solution, but they help a lot.
I've never used snow tires. Except in some rent a cars. I've never had an accident in 25 yrs, I drive a huge amount, I'm never slip sliding over the road or out of control of my vehicle.

Please explain how I would be a safer driver with use of snow tires.

However I can see how an unskilled/inexperienced driver may benefit from snow tires just so you know I acknowledge that much. But I imagine theres a crossection of *greater handling and performance* drivers out there where snow tires just increase the risks taken.

You stated specifically that snow tires increases safety. I merely stated in response there is no conclusive factual data substantiation of that.

Ftr, and so you know where I am coming from in this regard when ABS was introduced it was also stated that it would increase driver safety and all kinds of false claims were made regarding the product innovation. Unfortunately in multiple jurisdictions accidents actually increased subsequent to the introduction of ABS brakes and with several defects and unintended hazards being introduced by the technology for which several large class action suits occurred. In several cases and suits the ABS brakes were alleged to contribute to the accidents.

So I don't assume anything when it comes to some of the new *safety* technologies.

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03-22-2013, 02:02 PM
  #640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
Unless you're on a soft surface (note: snow is one), a modern ABS system will typically stop your car faster than locking up your tires.

Locking up your tires on a soft surface like snow or gravel can help stop your car because there will be a build up of material in front of the tires that helps slow the car.

Nevermind that once your tires lock up, the possibility of your car inducing a spin goes up as well.


I have only had a car with ABS for two months now, but I greatly prefer it to my older car that didn't have it.
Just wait till you try to stop on glare ice sometime approaching an intersection. The single worst situation is slight loose snow cover on top of black ice. This seemingly confuses the threshold braking of the ABS system resulting in seemingly very little actual braking being applied. I once encountered a 150foot approach that was like curling ice and the ABS were doing nothing. They weren't properly sensing that the vehicle was not stopping. I had to steer into snow pack to slow the vehicle. I would've sailed 200feet right through the intersection. It seemed as if I had no brakes.

Never had this degree of difficulty stopping, only with ABS brakes which behave unpredictably with loose snow pack on top of glare ice. Conversely, when ABS senses clear exposed glare ice it performs well.

Not sure what it is that causes this specific problem. Theres beens several reports btw of the phenomenon I mention.

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03-22-2013, 02:13 PM
  #641
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Please explain how I would be a safer driver with use of snow tires.
Much lower braking distances. Up to 21% more traction. It's pretty simple, really. You would have more capability to control your vehicle. All of the speculation and fluff in the world, and the fact that you are apparently a good driver, doesn't change this fact.

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03-22-2013, 02:16 PM
  #642
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Originally Posted by Leman Russ View Post
Pretty much this.
Uh no super slow is a major cause of accidents. If your too bloody scared to drive then gtfo the road

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03-22-2013, 02:18 PM
  #643
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Just wait till you try to stop on glare ice sometime approaching an intersection. The single worst situation is slight loose snow cover on top of black ice. This seemingly confuses the threshold braking of the ABS system resulting in seemingly very little actual braking being applied. I once encountered a 150foot approach that was like curling ice and the ABS were doing nothing. They weren't properly sensing that the vehicle was not stopping. I had to steer into snow pack to slow the vehicle. I would've sailed 200feet right through the intersection. It seemed as if I had no brakes.

Never had this degree of difficulty stopping, only with ABS brakes which behave unpredictably with loose snow pack on top of glare ice. Conversely, when ABS senses clear exposed glare ice it performs well.

Not sure what it is that causes this specific problem. Theres beens several reports btw of the phenomenon I mention.
And that is what happened to me. ABS kept me plowing through the intersection until I narrowly missed the car that started moving due to green light. Its only made worse that I was going pretty slow compared to everyone else too and I still end up not being able to stop with about 3 lightposts away from intersection when I started braking.

I used to be big on every safety features on car, but honestly, after experiencing some of them in action personally, there are times where I am better off without them, especially the ABS since you can't turn it off from within the vehicle.

Stability control is nice though, but absolutely sucks once your stopped and on slushy wet snow ontop of ice. Good thing I can actually turn it off.

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03-22-2013, 02:18 PM
  #644
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Uk is getting hit as well

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03-22-2013, 02:29 PM
  #645
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Yet theres no conclusive substantiation that this is actually the case. More study is required to come to this conclusion.
Companies like Bridgestone, Michelin, Continental etc etc spend hundreds of millions of dollars on research and development every year. There are hundreds of tests you can look at that show winter tires reduce stopping distance drastically. A regular tire compound isn't meant for temperatures below -7 degrees Celsius. As soon as the temperature drops below that range the compound stiffens and your contact patch with the road is reduced which leads to less grip, worse breaking and more tire wear.

There are tons of studies, that's why it's against the law in certain places to drive without winter tires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
I've never used snow tires. Except in some rent a cars. I've never had an accident in 25 yrs, I drive a huge amount, I'm never slip sliding over the road or out of control of my vehicle.

Please explain how I would be a safer driver with use of snow tires.
Stopping distance for one. What if you're stopped at a red light and some maniac is driving up behind you way too fast? You look in your mirror and see him sliding toward you. Naturally you'll want to pull forward, with all seasons you'll take longer to get traction and won't have as good of reaction time. With winters you'll get much more responsiveness from your vehicle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
However I can see how an unskilled/inexperienced driver may benefit from snow tires just so you know I acknowledge that much. But I imagine theres a crossection of *greater handling and performance* drivers out there where snow tires just increase the risks taken.
It's funny, all season tires aren't even a thing in Europe. They don't exist. People have a set of summer tires, and a set of winters. The North American market created demand for an "all season" tire so manufacturers started making them. Any tire guy will tell you all season tires are garbage in the snow and most manufacturers aren't keen on the all-season market but create tires for it because there's a demand.

Like I said earlier there are places where it's literally illegal to drive in the winter without winter tires. There's a reason for that.


Non-winter tires aren't designed to be used in temperatures under -7 degrees Celsius.

Quote:
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You stated specifically that snow tires increases safety. I merely stated in response there is no conclusive factual data substantiation of that.
They do forsure, it's not even a question.


source : I sell tires for a living and have gone to numerous seminars on winter tires specifically.


Last edited by SephF: 03-22-2013 at 02:35 PM.
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03-22-2013, 02:30 PM
  #646
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Much lower braking distances. Up to 21% more traction. It's pretty simple, really. You would have more capability to control your vehicle. All of the speculation and fluff in the world, and the fact that you are apparently a good driver, doesn't change this fact.
Agreed. If you don't change the way you drive, winter tires will always be better in winter road conditions.

If you become overconfident because you have winter tires, then aggravating circumstances complicate the assessment.

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03-22-2013, 03:03 PM
  #647
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Originally Posted by Madmax53 View Post
Uh no super slow is a major cause of accidents. If your too bloody scared to drive then gtfo the road
Wrongo. If it's straight ice and everyone slows right down, everyone gets home safe. Your macho BS is far worse than people driving according to the conditions.

Hey SephF, is it safe to use winter tires in the summer in your opinion? We're talking maybe putting 5000 KMs on them on one summer season. I've heard it's not dangerous, and with the right winter tires you don't burn too much tread off of them.

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03-22-2013, 03:05 PM
  #648
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Cue the melt. This is going to be a disaster.

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03-22-2013, 03:08 PM
  #649
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Originally Posted by oilersfan11 View Post
We don't even get anywhere near the same amount of snow like we used too.I remember the 1980's having double the amount of snow compared to now.
Or we're you just half the size back then.

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03-22-2013, 03:19 PM
  #650
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Wrongo. If it's straight ice and everyone slows right down, everyone gets home safe. Your macho BS is far worse than people driving according to the conditions.
Yup. I'm a big fan of arriving at the destination, even if it's later than expected.

Furthermore, if you're not able to properly respond to someone driving slower, that is precisely why you SHOULD be driving slower.



As for the question of whether or not winter tires are required for safe driving, that's a different story.

I actually stick with all seasons as well, mostly for cost and storage reasons, and I don't get in accidents either. But it's clear that Winter Tires only help. They just aren't worth the opportunity cost for me at this time (i.e. Food, time, etc.). So I drive carefully and plan my routes to avoid places where traction issues would cause issues. You won't see me go anywhere near the 105 Street hill in conditions like yesterday.

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