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The 2013 Weather GDT

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03-22-2013, 03:20 PM
  #651
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
Cue the melt. This is going to be a disaster.
So if the melt is going to be a disaster, what was yesterday?

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03-22-2013, 03:29 PM
  #652
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Originally Posted by Psycho Dad View Post
Wrongo. If it's straight ice and everyone slows right down, everyone gets home safe. Your macho BS is far worse than people driving according to the conditions.

Hey SephF, is it safe to use winter tires in the summer in your opinion? We're talking maybe putting 5000 KMs on them on one summer season. I've heard it's not dangerous, and with the right winter tires you don't burn too much tread off of them.
You lose some control with winters on in the dry months. They are made with metal studs to stick into the ice for better traction. The worse part is that you wear out the studs in summer and lose what you paid for in the first place by wearing out the studs. If you're going to invest in winter tires change them when the snow goes.

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03-22-2013, 03:36 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by SephF View Post
Companies like Bridgestone, Michelin, Continental etc etc spend hundreds of millions of dollars on research and development every year. There are hundreds of tests you can look at that show winter tires reduce stopping distance drastically. A regular tire compound isn't meant for temperatures below -7 degrees Celsius. As soon as the temperature drops below that range the compound stiffens and your contact patch with the road is reduced which leads to less grip, worse breaking and more tire wear.

There are tons of studies, that's why it's against the law in certain places to drive without winter tires.
Clearly I'm talking about road data, accidents, statistics and ACTUAL real world impact and whether or not safety is increased in actual driving. Not some contrived oval driving test.

The NHTSA has agreed that MORE statistical substantiation of the effects of snow tires is required. Its not a forgone conclusion that snow tires automatically result in safer driving and less accidents and injuries.



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Stopping distance for one. What if you're stopped at a red light and some maniac is driving up behind you way too fast? You look in your mirror and see him sliding toward you. Naturally you'll want to pull forward, with all seasons you'll take longer to get traction and won't have as good of reaction time. With winters you'll get much more responsiveness from your vehicle.
Personally when stopped I know whats behind me, also I tend to slow gradually approaching a stop allowing vehicles behind me to also slow gradually. In this way imparting safer driving to all in vicinity. I also stop allowing a distance if I sense the car behind me is approaching too quickly. In this way if the car behind doesn't stop I have room to move forward and do. I've had this save a fender bender or worse countless times.


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It's funny, all season tires aren't even a thing in Europe. They don't exist. People have a set of summer tires, and a set of winters. The North American market created demand for an "all season" tire so manufacturers started making them. Any tire guy will tell you all season tires are garbage in the snow and most manufacturers aren't keen on the all-season market but create tires for it because there's a demand.
Just so we're clear if I was driving in Northern Europe, mountainous regions, BC, or Quebec, or Ontario, Atlantic Canada with much different road condtions I would likely use snow tires. I personally do not feel I need them driving on the prairies with the primarily urban driving I do. Being in the industry I know you'll tell me my attitude is wrong wrong wrong.


Quote:
Like I said earlier there are places where it's literally illegal to drive in the winter without winter tires. There's a reason for that.
Which I would agree with most definitely. I tend to thing such legislation occurs in regions where winter tires should be mandated.


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source : I sell tires for a living and have gone to numerous seminars on winter tires specifically.
We have different perspectives on this which is fine. What I'm doing works for me and the vast majority of drivers in the prairie regions. I'm sure thats a huge source of concern for you in lost sales.

lets be clear here as well. YOU have vested interest in the discussion and thanks btw for disclosing that which I appreciate. I have no horses in this game. Just a different perspective.

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03-22-2013, 03:44 PM
  #654
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Originally Posted by timekeep View Post
You lose some control with winters on in the dry months. They are made with metal studs to stick into the ice for better traction. The worse part is that you wear out the studs in summer and lose what you paid for in the first place by wearing out the studs. If you're going to invest in winter tires change them when the snow goes.
Metal studs? Pretty sure it's just a different rubber formulation and tread pattern.

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03-22-2013, 03:48 PM
  #655
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Winter tires are made from a rubber that has better grip when its cold and get very soft when its warm, thats why you don't ride them in the summer, because the tread will go to ****.

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03-22-2013, 03:48 PM
  #656
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Originally Posted by Psycho Dad View Post
Metal studs? Pretty sure it's just a different rubber formulation and tread pattern.
The last set I put on, a couple of years ago, had studs. Maybe there are winter tires without studs now, but to me to be true winter tires they have studs.



And here is an article about winter tires that doesn't mention anything about studs.

http://www.kaltire.com/tires/about-y.../winter-tires/

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03-22-2013, 03:50 PM
  #657
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Depends on the type of winter tire.

The biggest thing is that the rubber is softer, and driving on hard pavement will wear the tires out much faster. It may be "safer" but the benefits definitely don't outweigh the costs.

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03-22-2013, 03:50 PM
  #658
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They don't NEED studs to be a "true" winter tire.

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03-22-2013, 03:52 PM
  #659
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Originally Posted by Leman Russ View Post
They don't NEED studs to be a "true" winter tire.
Maybe I should have said 'best' winter tire for ice.

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03-22-2013, 03:52 PM
  #660
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Originally Posted by timekeep View Post
The last set I put on, a couple of years ago, had studs. Maybe there are winter tires without studs now, but to me to be true winter tires they have studs.



And here is an article about winter tires that doesn't mention anything about studs.

http://www.kaltire.com/tires/about-y.../winter-tires/
Ah, I see. Thanks for the explanation.

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03-22-2013, 03:54 PM
  #661
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Tell me you don't have winter tires because you can't afford them and I'll buy that. To say they aren't safer is just nonsense. I see someone spinnng his tires and sliding when I'm not is the only study I need. I also don't care if someone thinks he's a good driver. You're more dangerous on all-season radials.

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03-22-2013, 04:03 PM
  #662
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Originally Posted by MoneyGuy View Post
Tell me you don't have winter tires because you can't afford them and I'll buy that. To say they aren't safer is just nonsense. I see someone spinnng his tires and sliding when I'm not is the only study I need. I also don't care if someone thinks he's a good driver. You're more dangerous on all-season radials.
So I'm more dangerous than zero accidents in my driving history?

Explain how that logic works.

Clearly you're not even listening to that which is being stated. How can I be safer than no accidents, no ditch drives, no rollovers etc?

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03-22-2013, 04:11 PM
  #663
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So I'm more dangerous than zero accidents in my driving history?

Explain how that logic works.

Clearly you're not even listening to that which is being stated. How can I be safer than no accidents, no ditch drives, no rollovers etc?
It's like saying, I drive with no seatbelts but have never been thrown out of my car like a javelin.

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03-22-2013, 04:16 PM
  #664
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
So I'm more dangerous than zero accidents in my driving history?

Explain how that logic works.

Clearly you're not even listening to that which is being stated. How can I be safer than no accidents, no ditch drives, no rollovers etc?
You keep conflating your supposed driving skill with the issue of whether or not winter tires provide more control.

I don't understand how you can be rational about other things and not understand this.

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03-22-2013, 04:20 PM
  #665
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All season tires; commonly referred to in the auto industry as no season tires, because they suck in all conditions.

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03-22-2013, 04:22 PM
  #666
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Originally Posted by MoneyGuy View Post
Seriously, you don't think winter tires are beneficial? You remind me of the people decades ago who said there is no evidence that smoking cigarettes is harmful.

Who needs a study? I can tell the people who don't have snow tires. They're the ones slip sliding all over the road. Like the woman last week whose tires were spinning as she tried to start out at a green light while making a left turn. It took her three light changes before she could make her turn.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but the part quoted is wrong.

And I'm not saying snow tires are the only solution, but they help a lot.
Probably because her solution was to gun it and ice up the road.

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03-22-2013, 04:23 PM
  #667
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Originally Posted by Leman Russ View Post
It's like saying, I drive with no seatbelts but have never been thrown out of my car like a javelin.
No, not at all. The suggestion is being made that I'm a dangerous driver specifically due to not using snow tires. Given zero accidents in my driving history how have I been a danger to other motorists. Please explain that.

BTW, I use seatbelts at all times. I use a lifejacket at all times when boating. I wear a bike helmet at all times whey cycling. I use safety precautions that make sense.

I don't user snow tires because I don't require them and because I can, and have, driven safely for close to a million miles without them.

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03-22-2013, 04:24 PM
  #668
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My wife SUV has winter tires. My little civic has the crappiest all season tires money can buy. I drove both vehicles yesterday for long distances and did not feel like I was gonna shoot off the road with the civic, and sure never felt like a tank with the bigger SUV with winters. I just drove for the road conditions and all is good either way.

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03-22-2013, 04:28 PM
  #669
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Originally Posted by Giggli G View Post
You keep conflating your supposed driving skill with the issue of whether or not winter tires provide more control.

I don't understand how you can be rational about other things and not understand this.
I'm not talking about "more control". I'm talking about statistical accident stats, real world validity to the claim that use of Snow tires results in increased safety, and less traffic accidents and injuries. The only extensive study of its kind was in the province of Quebec but the results of that study being inconclusive and to wit in a region where I would cede to the use of snow tires in anycase.

I provide myself with "more control" through adept and attentive defensive driving at all times. I drive according to road conditions at all times. So that the "control" I have over my vehicle is obviously been sufficient to prevent any accidents.

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03-22-2013, 04:30 PM
  #670
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
No, not at all. The suggestion is being made that I'm a dangerous driver specifically due to not using snow tires. Given zero accidents in my driving history how have I been a danger to other motorists. Please explain that.

BTW, I use seatbelts at all times. I use a lifejacket at all times when boating. I wear a bike helmet at all times whey cycling. I use safety precautions that make sense.

I don't user snow tires because I don't require them and because I can, and have, driven safely for close to a million miles without them.
You may be good at avoiding situations requiring emergency maneuvers, but it is not possible to avoid all of them, because it is not entirely in your control. When you do need to perform emergency maneuvers, there will be no comparison between your abilities when it comes to all-seasons vs. winter tires.

You probably aren't a dangerous driver in any huge way with all seasons if you drive accordingly, though. It's mostly just bad for your own safety.

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03-22-2013, 04:33 PM
  #671
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
I'm not talking about "more control". I'm talking about statistical accident stats, real world validity to the claim that use of Snow tires results in increased safety, and less traffic accidents and injuries. The only extensive study of its kind was in the province of Quebec but the results of that study being inconclusive and to wit in a region where I would cede to the use of snow tires in anycase.

I provide myself with "more control" through adept and attentive defensive driving at all times. I drive according to road conditions at all times. So that the "control" I have over my vehicle is obviously been sufficient to prevent any accidents.
A study like what you are talking about would be impossible to do reliably. Too many uncontrolled variables. It would inherently be inconclusive. How would you set it up? Legislate an entire region to not allow snow tires? Then the next winter, legislate the region to make them mandatory? It would be unethical anyway.

I understand the argument that people go faster when they have better technology. But that doesn't mean the technology is not worthwhile. That means people need to change their behavior.

All of the actual hard data supports winter tires.

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03-22-2013, 04:35 PM
  #672
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I've driven summer dedicated and winter dedicated set ups in all of my cars. There's a hugely noticeable difference in stopping distance and traction on ice and snow.

Anybody actually arguing this is being willfully ignorant.

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03-22-2013, 04:41 PM
  #673
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Originally Posted by Giggli G View Post
A study like what you are talking about would be impossible to do reliably. Too many uncontrolled variables. It would inherently be inconclusive. How would you set it up? Legislate an entire region to not allow snow tires? Then the next winter, legislate the region to make them mandatory? It would be unethical anyway.

I understand the argument that people go faster when they have better technology. But that doesn't mean the technology is not worthwhile. That means people need to change their behavior.

All of the actual hard data supports winter tires.
NHTSA and other jurisdictions have recommended exactly the evaluative study I am talking about. How this is done is simply gathering comprehensive longitudinal data on accidents, collision, injuries before and after implementation of legislation mandating snow tires in respective jurisdictions.

What longitudinal study does is it mitigates third variable influences such as weather that are specific to regions and change from year to year in severity.

What multiple studies do in different jurisdictions is replicate data across different regions, climates, etc.

The results, would, or would not reveal statistical, and ongoing difference in safety when snow tires are mandated.

After the ABS fiasco I would prefer more information. Not only for myself, and I agree with NHTSA that such exhaustive analysis should occur. Also because NHTSA was similarly concerned with how the ABS saga unfolded and with how the use of ABS breaks endangered, rather than provided safety to motorists.

In short this is a case of the NHTSA, and myself, requiring increasing validity after the ABS boondoggle.

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03-22-2013, 04:42 PM
  #674
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I've driven summer dedicated and winter dedicated set ups in all of my cars. There's a hugely noticeable difference in stopping distance and traction on ice and snow.

Anybody actually arguing this is being willfully ignorant.
Nobody is arguing this. What is being argued is whether its possible to drive safely without the innovation. Presumably it is.

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03-22-2013, 04:53 PM
  #675
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I've driven summer dedicated and winter dedicated set ups in all of my cars. There's a hugely noticeable difference in stopping distance and traction on ice and snow.

Anybody actually arguing this is being willfully ignorant.
Pffffft ignorant is such an ugly word.

I prefer "Accident free for 30 years!"

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