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Hopefully gain some insight on Makarov

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Old
03-22-2013, 02:08 PM
  #26
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Makarov is also woefully underappreciated in Russia. He barely cracks Top 10 Soviet players in the court of public opinion (among the people I spoke to), ranking behind, not just Kharlamov and Tretiak, but also behind Larionov and even perennial underachiever Maltsev! His jersey is not retired by CSKA. I attribute this to several factors, one of them being this. Europeans (Russians included) always valued the beauty and poetry of the game no less than the actual results and especially statistics (they call North American approach "the cult of statistics"). This in part stems from soccer, where a player can sometimes accomplish absolutely nothing, as an individual or as part of a team, and yet be revered for his "art." Kharlamov and Maltsev were viewed as "artists," and Makarov was not (in spite of being a highlight reel): he was viewed as a part of Tikhonov's machine and less artistic than, say Larionov. Which is very unfair.
And you just mentioned the number 1 reason why Makarov was listed so low. When we did the 2008 and 2009 Top 100 lists, the majority of posters went with the assumption that "who are we to second guess all the Russians who say that Kharlamov was the best Russian ever?" So Kharlamov was ranked and every other Soviet great was scaled behind him.

I'm not saying that's right (I'm getting more and more in the Makarov camp myself), but it's what happened.

For whatever reason, a lot of older fans, both European and North American, view the quality of Soviet stars in the 1970s as quite a bit higher than the stars in the 1980s, despite the fact that the team got better results in the 1980s.

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03-22-2013, 02:52 PM
  #27
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The view of Soviet players of the 70s vs. the 80s is an interesting topic. It may have something to do with the shock effect of the 1972 Super Series, when the Soviets surprised everybody. In the 80s there was no surprise. Also in the 70s Elite League there was a lot more competition. In the 80s, CSKA has become hegemonic, effectively killing mass interest in domestic hockey in Russia. As a result, people started viewing 80s stars as inferior to the 70s stars. Although I can argue that players that almost beat Gretzky and Lemieux were every bit as good as those that almost beat Esposito and Mahovlich.

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03-22-2013, 03:00 PM
  #28
Darth Yoda
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I believe that the sum of all parts was better than the actual players on the soviet team. They gained from being CSKA-members most of them. Larionov is a good example, pretty far from being an offensively dominating player on this scale.


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03-22-2013, 03:26 PM
  #29
Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Makarov was also better than Messier.
Hmmm, not sure about that one. I can't imagine passing up Mess for Makarov on my team.

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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Disagreed. He led the Sharks in points once and was absolutely integral to Detroit's success in the late 90s.

But certainly the # of Cups have something to do with selecting them over Makarov.
He finished 14th in Hart voting. He had one 3rd place vote to his name. He finished 7th in Selke voting, not bad, but he was the 9th center in All-star voting at year's end. I'm not sure he was necessarily a "star" at that time, or at any time in the NHL. He was a very good and very serviceable player in the NHL but he was in his 30s, noticeably drained from a decade of being under the Soviet system and I personally remember Larionov at a time when he most likely would have been a legitimate star in the NHL.

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03-22-2013, 03:53 PM
  #30
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He finished 14th in Hart voting. He had one 3rd place vote to his name.
Is this really worth mentioning?

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03-22-2013, 05:04 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
I believe that the sum of all parts was better than the actual players on the soviet team. They gained from being CSKA-members most of them. Larionov is a good example, pretty far from being an offensively dominating player on this scale.
I used to talk about being "more than the sum of its parts." Now I don't. Just watch some of the individual moves of Makarov, Krutov, and Kamensky: they were premier talents! Sure, they benefited from playing together, but it doesn't mean they were not superb players. Larionov, while not having the speed, the power, or the shot of the others, had superb vision, sense, and passing skills. In fact, in those aspects he was only a tad below Gretzky.

But, again: just like you all evaluate Eddie Shore against his peers in the 30s and deem him to be one of the best of all time, I believe it's perfectly legitimate to judge Makarov and others against their peers. Especially Makarov. His three Best Player Awards are second only to Tretiak's five (exceeding Krutov, Kharlamov, and Fetisov, each one with two).

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03-22-2013, 05:08 PM
  #32
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Hmmm, not sure about that one. I can't imagine passing up Mess for Makarov on my team.
That depends on which team you want to build. If you are, say, Red Wings of today, you need a star winger for Datsyuk, as opposed to a third star center. If you are New York Rangers... you'd want Messier. Then again, I don't like Messier much.

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03-22-2013, 05:31 PM
  #33
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Where is the evidence that Makarov was better than Messier? Taking Makarov for team need doesn't make him a better player.

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03-22-2013, 05:39 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
Where is the evidence that Makarov was better than Messier? Taking Makarov for team need doesn't make him a better player.
Yeah, that one's ladled a bit too deeply in the subjective for me to really "pick" between them, unless the discussion was heavily based on need, as a previously mentioned example. Even "in a vacuum", it has to be decently close.

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03-22-2013, 05:58 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I used to talk about being "more than the sum of its parts." Now I don't. Just watch some of the individual moves of Makarov, Krutov, and Kamensky: they were premier talents! Sure, they benefited from playing together, but it doesn't mean they were not superb players. Larionov, while not having the speed, the power, or the shot of the others, had superb vision, sense, and passing skills. In fact, in those aspects he was only a tad below Gretzky.

But, again: just like you all evaluate Eddie Shore against his peers in the 30s and deem him to be one of the best of all time, I believe it's perfectly legitimate to judge Makarov and others against their peers. Especially Makarov. His three Best Player Awards are second only to Tretiak's five (exceeding Krutov, Kharlamov, and Fetisov, each one with two).
Yeah, against his peers in Russia. Sure, he was their best skater if not Fetisov. How high they would be on an all-time list is another matter. Higher most of them, no doubt, but up at Trottier level? Doubtful, but sure make the case.

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03-22-2013, 05:59 PM
  #36
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Makarov was definitely better than Messier on the international scene. 87 CC is proof of that. But their NHL resumes really do not compare.

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03-22-2013, 06:12 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Just look at the Top 70 list on this board...
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
I'd like to see your top 70 before you mock what others have worked very hard on to complete.
Makarov was arguably the best player in the world during the entire 80's behind Wayne and is 68th.

Henri Richard is 55th, the guy has a legit point.

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03-22-2013, 06:17 PM
  #38
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I remember an underrated Russian forward Khomutov. He played with Kamensky on their 2nd line.


I guess, at the 1987 Canada Cup, Khomutov scored in each game of the final series against Canada.


He's never played in the NHL, though.

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03-22-2013, 06:30 PM
  #39
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Makarov was arguably the best player in the world during the entire 80's behind Wayne and is 68th.

Henri Richard is 55th, the guy has a legit point.
I'm not saying I agree 100% with the History of Hockey list. But this isn't the first time Sentinal has been blatantly disrespectful to other posters' hardwork on here.

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03-22-2013, 07:45 PM
  #40
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Where is the evidence that Makarov was better than Messier? Taking Makarov for team need doesn't make him a better player.
The evidence for me is the eye test.

Makarov was noticeably a level above Messier at the Canada Cups. I think it's safe to say Makarov had the higher peak......however, career value it gets closer.

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03-22-2013, 09:00 PM
  #41
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Does disagreement automatically make a person "blatantly disrespectful"? Because I certainly do not disrespect anybody here.

When comparing Makarov to Messier we can go by several aspects. Wrt his peers, Messier did not dominate them nearly as much as Makarov (9 scoring titles is Gretzky's level domination, not Messier's). On the international level, Makarov certainly accomplished more than Messier. In the face-to-face CC87, I'd give Makarov a very slight edge. Career-wise, Messier had a longer one, but (a) he didn't have to adapt to a new league, and (b) Makarov didn't have anything resembling the Vancouver disaster. So I give Makarov a healthy advantage.

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03-23-2013, 12:00 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Does disagreement automatically make a person "blatantly disrespectful"? Because I certainly do not disrespect anybody here.

When comparing Makarov to Messier we can go by several aspects. Wrt his peers, Messier did not dominate them nearly as much as Makarov (9 scoring titles is Gretzky's level domination, not Messier's). On the international level, Makarov certainly accomplished more than Messier. In the face-to-face CC87, I'd give Makarov a very slight edge. Career-wise, Messier had a longer one, but (a) he didn't have to adapt to a new league, and (b) Makarov didn't have anything resembling the Vancouver disaster. So I give Makarov a healthy advantage.
That appears to be punishing Messier for retiring later. Messier was 36 when he signed his over-paid deal with Vancouver. Makarov retired at 36. If Makarov had played into his 40s the last years of his career wouldn't have looked so pretty either. Both of them have about a 15-year period as an elite player, with Messier's probably being a little longer.

We know with Makarov that he scored 86 points in his first year in the NHL, past his prime (he was 31, and his Russian league stats were already starting to fall in 1988-89), and away from the usual linemates he had so much chemistry with. He had the consistency to win 9 Soviet scoring titles, and in some of those wins he was well ahead of the #2 player. I think he would have been consistently hitting 100 points with a few 120-130 point seasons at his absolute peak if he made the NHL earlier, putting him in Bossy/Trottier territory.

Internationally Makarov has an edge, although the comparison might not be fair to Messier since he was always stuck behind Gretzky on Team Canada, and often playing a more defensive role, while Makarov was playing top-line minutes for the USSR.

Somewhere in the 20-30 range all-time is probably fair for Makarov. Messier usually goes somewhere in the high 20s on these lists, so they're fairly close players.

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03-23-2013, 12:37 PM
  #43
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Well, it can also be argued that, had it been Makarov and not Larionov to go from SJ to Detroit in 1995, Sergei would add a couple of Stanley Cups to his resume and retired substantially later. DRW had two all-star centers in Yzerman and Fedorov. Larionov's addition put Fedorov on the wing, which was quite a luxury. Larionov certainly aged better, but that is due to the DRW system being more conducive to his style.

Makarov's "top line minutes" in the national team were little different from the "bottom line minutes." Tikhonov rolled four lines evenly.

To me, anything below the Top 10 would be incorrect.

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03-23-2013, 12:38 PM
  #44
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I dont think Messier is the first player to compare Makarov to since they had very different strenghts. Might seem comfortable on the surface though.

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03-23-2013, 12:49 PM
  #45
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Is this really worth mentioning?
Not really. That was sort of the point. Decent season, but not among the elite.

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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
That depends on which team you want to build. If you are, say, Red Wings of today, you need a star winger for Datsyuk, as opposed to a third star center. If you are New York Rangers... you'd want Messier. Then again, I don't like Messier much.
Knowing what we know about Messier now, how do you not take him over Makarov? The thing with Messier is that his impact goes beyond the scoresheet. It goes in the dressing room and in a tight game or in the postseason. His will to win arguably outstrips anyone else in hockey history. He won two Hart trophies against Lemieux and Gretzky. Granted, it wasn't either one of their best years but it still counts.

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03-23-2013, 01:14 PM
  #46
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Knowing what we know about Messier now, how do you not take him over Makarov? The thing with Messier is that his impact goes beyond the scoresheet. It goes in the dressing room and in a tight game or in the postseason. His will to win arguably outstrips anyone else in hockey history. He won two Hart trophies against Lemieux and Gretzky. Granted, it wasn't either one of their best years but it still counts.
I admit, I don't know anything about Makarov's presence in the dressing room; Fetisov and Larionov were the leaders of that squad. Never heard anything but praise for his character, though. I have also witnessed Messier's "leadership" in Vancouver (you are centering Bure and Mogilny and what?) and his second stint in New York, when NYR repeatedly failed to make playoffs year after year. Usually leadership increases with age ("elder statesmen"), while in Messier's case it was the opposite. I'd definitely put Makarov above Messier and somewhere around Maurice Richard.

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03-23-2013, 07:37 PM
  #47
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29 is still too low. I maintain that the Soviet players were only a tad below their Canadian counterparts and should be represented accordingly. In case of Makarov, we are talking about a 9 time scoring leader in the Soviet Elite League, 3 time Best Player Award (over Krutov et al), who excelled at the international level (including the CC81 and 87, with the highest PPG against Canada and NHL clubs of all Soviet players) and, unlike some other Soviet stars,had a seamless transition to the NHL.
While his transition was by far the best of the 5 guys, apart from Igor's longevity, he did show how much better it could have been had he had a center like Igor when he was 35 with the Sharks.

Top 10 might be a stretch but it's feasible while top 30 has a very strong argument IMO.

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03-24-2013, 10:34 AM
  #48
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I admit, I don't know anything about Makarov's presence in the dressing room; Fetisov and Larionov were the leaders of that squad. Never heard anything but praise for his character, though. I have also witnessed Messier's "leadership" in Vancouver (you are centering Bure and Mogilny and what?) and his second stint in New York, when NYR repeatedly failed to make playoffs year after year. Usually leadership increases with age ("elder statesmen"), while in Messier's case it was the opposite. I'd definitely put Makarov above Messier and somewhere around Maurice Richard.
I am interested in seeing what your top 20 (or even 10, but 20 would be better) list would look like. I'm also curious how his 9 scoring titles in the Soviet league compare to other Soviet players. I think Soviet leagues were shorter too, correct? Sorry if my knowledge of Soviet hockey is somewhat lacking.

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03-24-2013, 12:56 PM
  #49
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1979-80 (44 games)
1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 29 39 68
2 Helmut Balderis CSKA 26 35 61
3 Viktor Shalimov Spartak 34 19 53

1980-81 (49 games)
1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 42 37 79
2 Sergue´ Kapustin Spartak 36 25 61
3 Nikola´ Drozdetsky CSKA 30 28 58

1981-82 (47 games)
1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 32 43 75
2 Aleksandr Kozhevnikov Spartak 43 28 71
3 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 37 29 66

1982-83 (44 games)
1 Helmut Balderis Dynamo Riga 32 31 63
2 Aleksandr Kozhevnikov Spartak 35 22 57
3 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 32 21 53
(Makarov only played 30 games and was 8th)

1983-84 (44 games)
1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 36 37 73
2 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 37 20 57
3 Nikola´ Drozdetsky CSKA 31 20 51

1984-85 (40 games)
1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 26 39 65
2 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 23 30 53
3 Helmut Balderis Dynamo Riga 31 20 51

1985-86 (40 games)
1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 30 32 62
2 Igor Larionov CSKA 21 31 52
3 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 31 17 48

1986-87 (40 games)
1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 21 32 53
2 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 26 24 50
3 Igor Larionov CSKA 20 26 46

1987-88 (51 games)
1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 23 45 68
2 Igor Larionov CSKA 25 32 57
3 Nikola´ Sukhanov Traktor 22 29 51

1988-89 (44 games)
1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 21 33 54
2 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 20 21 41
3 Anatoli Chistyakov Traktor 9 31 40

I don't have the Top 20 made yet. I will, at some point.

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03-24-2013, 04:13 PM
  #50
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Thanks. Some of those win margins are pretty impressive too. I know his 9 is higher than any of the other Soviets. How do most the other Soviet superstars rank compared to him?

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