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Ales Hemsky at the Deadline

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Old
03-23-2013, 02:50 PM
  #226
WeridAl
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Oh, quite. Agree entirely that Hemsky shouldn't be available at a scratch-and-dent discount.

But some degree of risk acceptance on the part of Edmonton would still be necessary.
If there was no question with Hemsky's health, he would be worth a heck of a lot more. Face it, there is your stat trolls that have never seen him play and will whine and cry and constantly throw stats at you. Admit it, at the TDL the offers do go a little nuts, and looking at past history of some players a 1st+prospect is about right for Hemsky.

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03-23-2013, 02:59 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by WeridAl View Post
I see the Hemsky's injury history still being used, the fact is that a top 6 forward is at a premium, and will not come cheap. It's all about winning the cup this year and what ever happens after that is a bonus, do what ever it takes to get you that cup.

Some posters think that due to Hemsky's history, they think their team can get him for cheap and whine and cry when the Oilers fans disagree with them. HFboards somethings never change.
we arent the ones whining and crying. its Oiler fans that whine and cry when we tell them that we dont agree with them on what fair value is

otherwise why not do as Viqsi and countless others have suggested and include a 1st rd pick as a conditional hedge in case of injury

the very fact that you wont consider it, is proof positive that oiler fans are negotiating in bad faith and have just as many valid concerns about Hemsky's ability to stay healthy

it also points squarely on who is whining and crying because one side is willing to accept a conditional aspect to any trade, the whiners and the criers arent

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03-23-2013, 03:00 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by WeridAl View Post
If there was no question with Hemsky's health, he would be worth a heck of a lot more. Face it, there is your stat trolls that have never seen him play and will whine and cry and constantly throw stats at you. Admit it, at the TDL the offers do go a little nuts, and looking at past history of some players a 1st+prospect is about right for Hemsky.
The Trolls are not GMs and clearly do not think the same way.

How could Hemsky not be worth at least a 1st?

Look at a team like Calgary (No offense), their draft record has been one of the worst over the last decade. So every pick is a gamble essentially.

Most GMs would love to have a mid-late 1st round pick turn into a player of Hemsky's skill/talent.

So why trade a player that is already proven for a potential bust?

An injured Hemsky is still worth more than 10,000 Alexandre Daigles.

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03-23-2013, 03:06 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by WeridAl View Post
If there was no question with Hemsky's health, he would be worth a heck of a lot more. Face it, there is your stat trolls that have never seen him play and will whine and cry and constantly throw stats at you. Admit it, at the TDL the offers do go a little nuts, and looking at past history of some players a 1st+prospect is about right for Hemsky.
Healthy players..... name one player with a history of injuries who was traded at the deadline for a premium?

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03-23-2013, 03:11 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
The Trolls are not GMs and clearly do not think the same way.

How could Hemsky not be worth at least a 1st?

Look at a team like Calgary (No offense), their draft record has been one of the worst over the last decade. So every pick is a gamble essentially.

Most GMs would love to have a mid-late 1st round pick turn into a player of Hemsky's skill/talent.

So why trade a player that is already proven for a potential bust?

An injured Hemsky is still worth more than 10,000 Alexandre Daigles.
if that is so why hasnt it happened?

a 1st round draft pick is a lottery ticket

a lottery ticket is worth more than paying 5M to an injured Hemsky

its funny in many ways Hemsky on this board has become the new Kaberle


Last edited by Isles_Guy*: 03-23-2013 at 03:20 PM.
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03-23-2013, 03:18 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by jtaveras4pres View Post
Healthy players..... name one player with a history of injuries who was traded at the deadline for a premium?
Peter Forsberg was traded for a 1st, 3rd, Upshall Parent after seasons of 49, 73, 39 and 60 games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtaveras4pres View Post
a lottery ticket is worth more than paying 5M to an injured Hemsky
You would be right... if Hemsky was injured. Then he couldn't be traded at all per NHL rules so I guess you win on that one?

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03-23-2013, 03:19 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by jtaveras4pres View Post
if that is so why hasnt it happened?

a 1st round draft pick is a lottery ticket

a lottery ticket is worth more than paying 5M to an injured Hemsky
So in your mind, buying a lottery ticket for a chance at 10 million is worth more than just having 5 million...

Please explain the logic.

As much as people laugh at the Oilers management, they somewhat know what they are doing.

Hemsky was offered an extension at 5mil because they knew from asking around that he would get at least that if he was an UFA.

Ruutu is a good comparable.

And considering he only has 1 year left at 5mil, the value is there for a contending team needing skill in their top 6.

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03-23-2013, 03:30 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
So in your mind, buying a lottery ticket for a chance at 10 million is worth more than just having 5 million...

Please explain the logic.

As much as people laugh at the Oilers management, they somewhat know what they are doing.

Hemsky was offered an extension at 5mil because they knew from asking around that he would get at least that if he was an UFA.

Ruutu is a good comparable.

And considering he only has 1 year left at 5mil, the value is there for a contending team needing skill in their top 6.
but its not having 5M...... its a lottery ticket versus having to pay 5M to an injured player

if the oilers guarantee Hemskys health then yes, you could get quite a bit but as we all know Hemsky himself cant guarantee his health

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03-23-2013, 03:30 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by reffree View Post
That's funny
Well done!
Except it's not...because no GM in the NHL is going to accept that trade for any player of any injury history... unless you are trading a modern day Doug Jarvis it is simply too physical and unpredictable a game

If that had any sense or logic or grounding in the actual NHL we'd see trades carry conditional 1sts all the times... but we don't because...

Trading is the buyer's risk

Anyone who tries to argue otherwise is ignoring history and fact to incite a reaction... I think that is against the rules... but we'll want to ask a mod about that


Last edited by EastonBlues22: 03-23-2013 at 10:03 PM. Reason: trolling reference
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03-23-2013, 03:36 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
Peter Forsberg was traded for a 1st, 3rd, Upshall Parent after seasons of 49, 73, 39 and 60 games.


that wasnt the whole trade.... there was a gentlemans agreement where philly would give back the first for the right to negotiate with Hartnell and Timonen before they were free agents

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03-23-2013, 03:37 PM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtaveras4pres View Post
but its not having 5M...... its a lottery ticket versus having to pay 5M to an injured player

if the oilers guarantee Hemskys health then yes, you could get quite a bit but as we all know Hemsky himself cant guarantee his health
Ever heard of long term IR and insurance?

The players injuries are covered by their high rated insurance premiums.

IR protects the cap space.

Worst case scenario is Savard obviously.

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03-23-2013, 03:39 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by jtaveras4pres View Post
that wasnt the whole trade.... there was a gentlemans agreement where philly would give back the first for the right to negotiate with Hartnell and Timonen before they were free agents
Welp... you were proven wrong...

So let me extend this challenge to you since I met your requirement... this goes to Viqsi and anyone else who has proposed this...

Name a single trade in NHL history in which a player was traded with a 1st that was conditional based on that player's health

You've got what... 95 years of history to work with... should be easy I would think?

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03-23-2013, 03:41 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
Except it's not...because no GM in the NHL is going to accept that trade for any player of any injury history... unless you are trading a modern day Doug Jarvis it is simply too physical and unpredictable a game

If that had any sense or logic or grounding in the actual NHL we'd see trades carry conditional 1sts all the times... but we don't because...

Trading is the buyer's risk

Anyone who tries to argue otherwise is ignoring history and fact to incite a reaction... I think that is against the rules... but we'll want to ask a mod about that
thats not entirely true.... teams include conditional picks based on games played all the time

so there are many times where trading is a shared risk


Last edited by EastonBlues22: 03-23-2013 at 10:04 PM. Reason: qep
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03-23-2013, 03:42 PM
  #239
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03-23-2013, 03:50 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
Welp... you were proven wrong...

So let me extend this challenge to you since I met your requirement... this goes to Viqsi and anyone else who has proposed this...

Name a single trade in NHL history in which a player was traded with a 1st that was conditional based on that player's health

You've got what... 95 years of history to work with... should be easy I would think?
but its not because A player's health cannot be used as a condition in those situations. it is done, but its always stated in other terms or as a gentlemans agreement between GM's. it is technically not allowable to trade an injured player, but they do it and skirt the rules by calling the condition something else.

2 years ago Simon Gagne was traded for a 4th or a 3rd conditionally to the kings. the league held it up until the condition was changed to : "if the kings made the playoffs" but it was common knowledge at the time of the trade that it was health related


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03-23-2013, 03:51 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by jtaveras4pres View Post
but its not because A player's health cannot be used as a condition in those situations. it is done, but its always stated in other terms or as a gentlemans agreement between GM's. it is technically not allowable to trade an injured player, but they do it and skirt the rules by calling the condition something else
So you can't provide an example then...

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03-23-2013, 04:09 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
So you can't provide an example then...
not officially no. but as i said it is done, but called something else.

The league doesnt want to be dragged into he said- she said arguments between member clubs where Dr's hired by each side say different things so injured players cant be traded and health cant be a condition.

it is done, but its usually a gentlemans agreement between GMs or called something else

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03-23-2013, 04:11 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by jtaveras4pres View Post
not officially no. but as i said it is done, but called something else.

The league doesnt want to be dragged into he said- she said arguments between member clubs where Dr's hired by each side say different things so injured players cant be traded and health cant be a condition.

it is done, but its usually a gentlemans agreement between GMs or called something else
So what you are saying is no...

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03-23-2013, 04:17 PM
  #244
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So what you are saying is no...
no what im saying is its done

just that its called something else

just as it was done in the Gagne situation

can you prove a GM has offered a first and a prospect for Hemsky?

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03-23-2013, 04:46 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by jtaveras4pres View Post
we arent the ones whining and crying. its Oiler fans that whine and cry when we tell them that we dont agree with them on what fair value is

otherwise why not do as Viqsi and countless others have suggested and include a 1st rd pick as a conditional hedge in case of injury

the very fact that you wont consider it, is proof positive that oiler fans are negotiating in bad faith and have just as many valid concerns about Hemsky's ability to stay healthy

it also points squarely on who is whining and crying because one side is willing to accept a conditional aspect to any trade, the whiners and the criers arent
First round picks for a team still in a rebuild are not a toss in conditional piece. Including our first as a conditional should increase the value of a deal, not be a bargaining chip to get fair value for him. To suggest that is riduculous.

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03-23-2013, 04:48 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by jtaveras4pres View Post
no what im saying is its done

just that its called something else

just as it was done in the Gagne situation
Wow TSN missed the boat on this one... they report Gagne was traded for a conditional 3rd/4th.. not with any picks... let alone a 1st

As a matter of fact I cannot see that condition on any website... you should e-mail them and make them aware... that is a pretty big error

Quote:
can you prove a GM has offered a first and a prospect for Hemsky?
You first... still waiting on a trade in which an NHL player was traded with a 1st that was conditional on that player's GP...

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03-23-2013, 04:53 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by jtaveras4pres View Post
no what im saying is its done

just that its called something else

just as it was done in the Gagne situation

can you prove a GM has offered a first and a prospect for Hemsky?
Can you prove that a GM hasn't offered a first and a prospect for Hemsky?

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03-23-2013, 04:57 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
Except it's not... it's a troll job because no GM in the NHL is going to accept that trade for any player of any injury history... unless you are trading a modern day Doug Jarvis it is simply too physical and unpredictable a game

If that had any sense or logic or grounding in the actual NHL we'd see trades carry conditional 1sts all the times... but we don't because...

Trading is the buyer's risk

Anyone who tries to argue otherwise is ignoring history and fact to incite a reaction... I think that is against the rules... but we'll want to ask a mod about that
But if you want to insist upon that, then Edmonton has to accept that Hemsky will only be purchased with a scratch-and-dent discount applied - which is something Oil fans here have consistently rejected as insulting and impermissible.

You can't have it both ways. Like it or not, he has an appalling injury history, and that legitimately scares people. You can't just pretend it doesn't exist and shout down anyone who raises the concern.

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03-23-2013, 05:02 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
But if you want to insist upon that, then Edmonton has to accept that Hemsky will only be purchased with a scratch-and-dent discount applied - which is something Oil fans here have consistently rejected as insulting and impermissible.

You can't have it both ways. Like it or not, he has an appalling injury history, and that legitimately scares people. You can't just pretend it doesn't exist and shout down anyone who raises the concern.
When his injuries are over a year (and over 100 hockey games) behind him and he's shown no signs of having other major injuries, either in the past, or now. Hemsky's injury history affecting his current value is overblown on HF.

And both teams take a risk. If you're trading for picks or prospects, you may end up getting nothing if those players bust, and your value is at least a couple years away versus helping immediately. If you're trading for a player, any player may end up hurt, and players may end up not fitting into a team. There are risks on both sides, but most people just ignore that Hemsky's injuries are in the past, not the present.

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03-23-2013, 05:13 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
First round picks for a team still in a rebuild are not a toss in conditional piece. Including our first as a conditional should increase the value of a deal, not be a bargaining chip to get fair value for him. To suggest that is riduculous.
im just saying that if you really believe his injury problems are behind him that it wouldnt be a problem because unless he was hurt you're giving up nothing. its just a way of sharing the risk. You arent increasing the value of the deal one Iota, because you give nothing if he stays healthy, which is something youve been asserting all along.

you could structure it the other way too, if you agree hes worth prospect "A" and a 1st, then trade him for prospect "A" and a player or a conditional draft choice, then if he stays healthy the other GM gives you the rest of whatever you agreed to after the season.

neither of those add to the value of the deal..... all it does is share the risk because both sides are risking something and not just the acquiring team.

right now edmonton has 100% of the risk, and youre asking the acquiring team to assume that risk and also give value for the player. That assignment of risk must be accounted for, thats all im suggesting.

teams do it every day for example right now Yakupov is an unproven rookie, but if you were to trade him you would rightfully expect to be compensated for the risk that he becomes a superstar. That risk is what we call potential.... why is it so easy to accept in one direction and not the other?


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