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Patrick Kane v. Alex Kovalev

View Poll Results: Patrick Kane v. Alex Kovalev
Patrick Kane 70 56.00%
Alex Kovalev 55 44.00%
Voters: 125. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-22-2013, 02:46 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Offtheboard412 View Post
I couldn't care less what others on these boards say, people love to contradict themselves just so they can win arguments. Nowhere in my post did i say anything about the league being all about speed, I just said that speed is an attribute that has always been valued. Even in the clutch and grab era, speed would still be beneficial. You can't hook what you can't catch.

I ignored your goalie comment because I was really only addressing your point about Paille. Like I said, If Rico Fata could make this league, then so could Paille.
And my point and I know alot of people agree. There are more Pailles in the league now; aka guys with wheels and hands of stones than they were back then.

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03-22-2013, 02:54 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
And my point and I know alot of people agree. There are more Pailles in the league now; aka guys with wheels and hands of stones than they were back then.
Yep, it's all about Cap friendly, cheap speed to round out your 3rd and 4th lines now.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, lack of talent doesn't keep you out of the NHL today, lack of speed does!

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03-22-2013, 03:15 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
To watch? Yeah, you're right it is.
It is, but the posts to which I was responding were specifically comparisons of point totals. However Kane is outscoring Kovalev in his early years, the league happens to be in a period with comparable scoring levels to the dead puck era. That means there should be no ridiculous prorating of points because of when Kovalev started.

The barriers to scoring may be different, but the end result is the same: it's roughly as difficult to score right now as it was in the late 90s.

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03-22-2013, 03:52 PM
  #104
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Kovalev, at his best, was better than Kane. However, the former drove me nuts with some of his moronic plays and the latter does not, so, assuming off-ice stuff won't be an issue, I'd rather Kane.

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03-22-2013, 04:10 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Kovalev, at his best, was better than Kane. However, the former drove me nuts with some of his moronic plays and the latter does not, so, assuming off-ice stuff won't be an issue, I'd rather Kane.
Unless you're a Cabby in Buffalo

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03-22-2013, 04:17 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Kovalev, at his best, was better than Kane. However, the former drove me nuts with some of his moronic plays and the latter does not, so, assuming off-ice stuff won't be an issue, I'd rather Kane.
I don't think so.

Kovalev was never a first team all star and Kane I believe is on pace this year to have over 100 points in an 82 game season something kovalev never did

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03-22-2013, 04:20 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
I don't think so.

Kovalev was never a first team all star and Kane I believe is on pace this year to have over 100 points in an 82 game season something kovalev never did
Kane has to finish the year before we start giving him 1st team anything. That said, give me Kane over Kovalev any day any time and twice on Mondays. Anyone, that would want Kovalev has got to be crazy, you never know when this guy will get disinterested.

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03-23-2013, 03:29 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
Kane has to finish the year before we start giving him 1st team anything. That said, give me Kane over Kovalev any day any time and twice on Mondays. Anyone, that would want Kovalev has got to be crazy, you never know when this guy will get disinterested.
Kane has already been a first team all star in his career.

Season not over yet but I don't see how he won't be one again minus injury.. sure St. Louis has one more point then him but Kane has him crushed in goals, Crushed in +/-, PIMs.. etc.

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03-23-2013, 03:40 PM
  #109
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Rangers fan choosing Kane.

Imo Kane makes his teammates better and has an ability to drive a teams offense better than Kovalev who only demonstrated elite offensive production for a fairly small window of his career.

Kane has proven to be an elite level offensive talent for nearly every year he has been in the league while Kovalev's production was at a similar level for a much smaller period.

For how many years was Kovalev viewed as an elite winger? My guess is only for a 4-5 years of a long career. Kane at a young age is viewed as an elite winger and will probably be continued to be viewed as such throughout his entire career.

I really think Kovalev is being overrated on this thread for his skill when the bottom line is that a player should be evaluated for his body of work and I don't see how you can place Kovalev ahead of Kane if we are evaluating them on their body of work at roughly the same age. At has been pointed at, even at 24 years of age Kane nearly has eclipsed Kovalev's production during his most productive seasons despite Kane being younger.

I also do not think that Kane should be hit for quality of teammates when Kovalev tied Straka for points with 95 in his most productive offensive season and Lang wasn't far behind.

I feel the deciding factor in this will be the drive and dedication Kane shows throughout the rest of his career. If he shows a desire to keep improving and can stay in shape he will almost certainly have a better career than Kovalev.


Last edited by The Sweetness: 03-23-2013 at 03:55 PM.
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03-23-2013, 03:58 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by The Sweetness View Post
Rangers fan choosing Kane.

Imo Kane makes his teammates better and has an ability to drive a teams offense better than Kovalev who only demonstrated elite offensive production for a fairly small window of his career.

Kane has proven to be an elite level offensive talent for nearly every year he has been in the league while Kovalev's production was at a similar level for a much smaller period.

For how many years was Kovalev viewed as an elite winger? My guess is only for a 4-5 years of a long career. Kane at a young age is viewed as an elite winger and will probably be continued to be viewed as such throughout his entire career.

I really think Kovalev is being overrated on this thread for his skill when the bottom line is that a player should be evaluated for his body of work and I don't see how you can place Kovalev ahead of Kane if we are evaluating them on their body of work at roughly the same age. At has been pointed at, even at 24 years of age Kane nearly has eclipsed Kovalev's production during his most productive seasons despite Kane being younger.

I also do not think that Kane should be hit for quality of teammates when Kovalev tied Straka for points with 95 in his most productive offensive season and Lang wasn't far behind.

I feel the deciding factor in this will be the drive and dedication Kane shows throughout the rest of his career. If he shows a desire to keep improving and can stay in shape he will almost certainly have a better career than Kovalev.
4-5 seasons? I think you are being far too kind to Kovalev.. try 2...MAYBE 3.

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03-23-2013, 04:05 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
4-5 seasons? I think you are being far too kind to Kovalev.. try 2...MAYBE 3.
Were you in cryo for the entire '90s?

But in all seriousness, anyone would have considered him elite for at LEAST one year in each of New York, Pittsburgh, and Montreal. Giving him that kind of credit for only one year in each of those stops is severely undercounting, imo.

Little known Kovalev facts that are absolutely useless for the discussion: he's the first Russian ever taken in the 1st round of the draft, and he's the first Russian to get his name engraved on the Stanley Cup. That last one might not be technically true, though, if alphabetical order placed Karpovtsev ahead of Kovalev, Nemchinov, and Zubov (from the '93/94 Rangers, obviously).


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03-23-2013, 04:07 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
Went Kovalev, because I think he was more talented.

If I was starting a team from scratch, I'd probably take Kane because of his consistency compared to Kovalev
Strange rationale that is very flawed.

Given Kovalev is more talented than nearly anyone out there would you take Kovalev over the careers of Iginla, Messier or over someone like Toews?

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03-23-2013, 04:09 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Were you in cryo for the entire '90s?
The 90s... when Kovalev never had one season that was close to a PPG??

lol...

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03-23-2013, 04:10 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
4-5 seasons? I think you are being far too kind to Kovalev.. try 2...MAYBE 3.
Well, that's possible but I suppose it depends on how you define elite and maybe even depends a bit on how we rate Kane among the top wingers during his time in the league even we want to make that comparison.

But Kovalev had a few very good seasons in Pittsburgh as well as a good spell in Montreal he should get credit for.

However, I definitely agree with the point of your post that Kovalev was not viewed as an elite winger for a very long period in his career whereas Kane will likely be in that elite category for a much longer period.

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03-23-2013, 04:13 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Were you in cryo for the entire '90s?

But in all seriousness, anyone would have considered him elite for at LEAST one year in each of New York, Pittsburgh, and Montreal. Giving him that kind of credit for only one year in each of those stops is severely undercounting, imo.

Little known Kovalev facts that are absolutely useless for the discussion: he's the first Russian ever taken in the 1st round of the draft, and he's the first Russian to get his name engraved on the Stanley Cup. That last one might not be technically true, though, if alphabetical order placed Karpovtsev ahead of Kovalev, Nemchinov, and Zubov (from the '93/94 Rangers, obviously).
Kovalev never had an elite season with the Rangers and his best year before 2000 was 1999-2000 when he had 66 points with Pittsburgh.

His breakout year came in 2000-2001 playing with Straka and Lang if I remember correctly.


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03-23-2013, 04:16 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Were you in cryo for the entire '90s?

But in all seriousness, anyone would have considered him elite for at LEAST one year in each of New York, Pittsburgh, and Montreal. Giving him that kind of credit for only one year in each of those stops is severely undercounting, imo.

Little known Kovalev facts that are absolutely useless for the discussion: he's the first Russian ever taken in the 1st round of the draft, and he's the first Russian to get his name engraved on the Stanley Cup. That last one might not be technically true, though, if alphabetical order placed Karpovtsev ahead of Kovalev, Nemchinov, and Zubov (from the '93/94 Rangers, obviously).
Karpovtsev was part of the Rangers team, so his name would be first.

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03-23-2013, 04:22 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
The 90s... when Kovalev never had one season that was close to a PPG??

lol...
20 year old, highest drafted Russian ever, scores the 3rd most points on the team to bring the Cup to Manhattan? Secret got out by '93/94, my friend, and was on display for many years as a secondary scorer and top penalty-killer. Lots of people forget that last part, because, admittedly, his offensive skills ARE that distracting. Even as late as '07/08, when Montreal managed a 100+ point season, Kovalev actually finished with the 4th most PK time of all Habs forwards (more than Kostopolous or Koivu) on top of also having a huge bounce back year of 84 points - 1st on the Habs.

And in between there's more than just one season (even just cherry picking his 95 point season as the Pens' PK time leader among forwards and second highest scorer). IMO, of course.

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03-23-2013, 04:24 PM
  #118
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If we are talking about who has the better career I choose Kane, I think his career will be better than Kovalevs eventually.

If we talk about which player we want for out team? I'd take AK, the guy when he turned it on was on the same level of dominance as a Jagr or 2nd tier HoFs.

Kane hasn't really shown me that dominance yet. But he has plenty of time to change my mind.
What kind of dominance could Kovalev have? Are you taking over the course of a season or a game?

If you taking over the course of a game I don't see why you place so much value on that given how Kovalev could disappear for large stretches of time. While Kovalev was a very good player I think you are vastly overstating the impact he could have on a team if you feel he could show the same level of dominance as Jagr. Sure, perhaps for a shift or two. But certainly not for large stretches, which is what ultimately is the what is valuable for a team.

Also, in terms of importance to his team, Kane has already shown that he can carry a similar offensive burden to Kovalev if you look at their offensive production in regards to their teammates.

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03-23-2013, 04:26 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
20 year old, highest drafted Russian ever, scores the 3rd most points on the team to bring the Cup to Manhattan? Secret got out by '93/94, my friend, and was on display for many years as a secondary scorer and top penalty-killer. Lots of people forget that last part, because, admittedly, his offensive skills ARE that distracting. Even as late as '07/08, when Montreal managed a 100+ point season, Kovalev actually finished with the 4th most PK time of all Habs forwards (more than Kostopolous or Koivu) on top of also having a huge bounce back year of 84 points - 1st on the Habs.

And in between there's more than just one season (even just cherry picking his 95 point season as the Pens' PK time leader among forwards and second highest scorer). IMO, of course.
So, during which season during the 90's do you feel Kovalev was an elite winger?

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03-23-2013, 04:28 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by The Sweetness View Post
Kovalev never had an elite season with the Rangers and his best year before 2000 was 1999-2000 when he had 66 points with Pittsburgh.

His breakout year came in 2000-2001 playing with Straka and Lang if I remember correctly.
We're just going to get into a long subjective divide about the term "elite". There are some that will start and end the discussion by saying that someone who has only been a 2nd team post-season all-star has never truly been elite in the first place, so... there's that. You tell me how loose your definition of "elite" is, and I'll decide how much typing I need to do.

edit:
For example, what does it mean to you when a guy essentially has 4 straight seasons where he averaged 23+ mins/night - and on occasion see that ice time still increase in the playoffs?

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03-23-2013, 04:38 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
We're just going to get into a long subjective divide about the term "elite". There are some that will start and end the discussion by saying that someone who has only been a 2nd team post-season all-star has never truly been elite in the first place, so... there's that. You tell me how loose your definition of "elite" is, and I'll decide how much typing I need to do.
Why dispute a statement then back off when asked to substantiate your claim? You said another poster missed the 90's if they felt Kovalev did not have an elite season in the 90's so it should be on you to define the year if you call someone out like that. Otherwise don't make the post if you cant stand by it.

What year was Kovalev elite in the 90's that made you tell a poster he missed hockey in that decade?

To answer your question I'd consider elite to be in the top 5-10 at your position.

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03-23-2013, 04:43 PM
  #122
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Why dispute a statement then back off when asked to substanstiatenyour claim?
Why get into an in depth argument when no one seems to know what exactly is being argued in the first place? I've been down this road way too many times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sweetness View Post
What year was Kovalev elite in the 90's that made you tell a poster he missed hockey in that decade?
I answered this, actually. As early as the Rangers' '93/94 Cup win, and it's basically up to you how much we get into between then and '00/01, to which I already added '07/08 with the Habs, and am willing to flesh in more around that... again, depending. But if the end game involves flipping this back into a "Kane has X elite seasons and Kovalev has Y elite seasons" measurement, I'm not particularly interested.

edit: also, are we going "top 5-10" (looove arbitrary goal posts, btw, which means we'll be throwing out any 11th or 12th place finishes regardless of whether the position was particularly talent-laden or not) according to post season all-star voting, or some kind of statistical measure, or a combination, or what? Again, I see where this can all go depending on how this starts out.


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03-23-2013, 05:18 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
20 year old, highest drafted Russian ever, scores the 3rd most points on the team to bring the Cup to Manhattan? Secret got out by '93/94, my friend, and was on display for many years as a secondary scorer and top penalty-killer. Lots of people forget that last part, because, admittedly, his offensive skills ARE that distracting. Even as late as '07/08, when Montreal managed a 100+ point season, Kovalev actually finished with the 4th most PK time of all Habs forwards (more than Kostopolous or Koivu) on top of also having a huge bounce back year of 84 points - 1st on the Habs.

And in between there's more than just one season (even just cherry picking his 95 point season as the Pens' PK time leader among forwards and second highest scorer). IMO, of course.
Oh he killed penalties eh?

Oh wow he must be elite then.

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03-23-2013, 05:19 PM
  #124
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I think if to be elite at your position you have to be top 3...top 5 the very least in your position.

Kovalev was never close to that in the 90s.

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03-23-2013, 05:52 PM
  #125
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but we're all in agreement that if kane keeps up his play for the rest of this season, that it'll be easily the single best regular season between the two of them regardless of its lockout-shortening right?

as a former longtime resident of western new york and as a canucks fan, i hate the guy. but i have to admit: that little punk is a special player.

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