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Hamilton III: There's A New Sheriff In Town

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Old
03-23-2013, 03:56 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by HamiltonFan View Post
The nhl constitution is unclear on that point, just as it is unclear on many other subjects... On one hand, section 4.1 states that: "each Member Club shall have exclusive territorial rights in the city in which it is located and within fifty miles of that city's corporate limits." There's also a clause in the constitution that says that bettman has the right to interpret any issues in the way he sees fit, so it's basically whatever he says goes.
Well yes & no, that bit about the Commissioner deciding whats what at his leisure is a By-Law, not entrenched in the Constitution, so ya its crazy. As the thing was drafted in like 1917 and I assume some revisions made over the intervening decades, that particular clause appears to be an original & non-amended one, trumping the latter addition altogether along with the aforementioned By-Law, which I believe is 13.1 or thereabouts.

Did the original signatories have even a clue about such things as back then beyond imaginings of a Megalopolis? So why dont we use the use the 1917 City of Toronto's "Corporate Limits"? Without looking it up, whatre' we talkin with that one? Like Bloor & Danforth to the north, Bathurst to the west & maybe the Don River & Valley just past Rosedale to the east? Hell, the Beaches were just that back then, "cottage country" for many who had shacks out there instead of up north on Simcoe or in Muskoka. Fifty miles west from Bathurst, well, it doesnt make sense. You just cant have your cake & eat it too.

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03-23-2013, 04:52 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Well yes & no, that bit about the Commissioner deciding whats what at his leisure is a By-Law, not entrenched in the Constitution, so ya its crazy. As the thing was drafted in like 1917 and I assume some revisions made over the intervening decades, that particular clause appears to be an original & non-amended one, trumping the latter addition altogether along with the aforementioned By-Law, which I believe is 13.1 or thereabouts.

Did the original signatories have even a clue about such things as back then beyond imaginings of a Megalopolis? So why dont we use the use the 1917 City of Toronto's "Corporate Limits"? Without looking it up, whatre' we talkin with that one? Like Bloor & Danforth to the north, Bathurst to the west & maybe the Don River & Valley just past Rosedale to the east? Hell, the Beaches were just that back then, "cottage country" for many who had shacks out there instead of up north on Simcoe or in Muskoka. Fifty miles west from Bathurst, well, it doesnt make sense. You just cant have your cake & eat it too.
There were few annexations between 1914-1922, so this map should do:



Rough modern day borders: Eglinton to the north, Vic Park to the East, and Runneymede to the West.

A little bigger than you thought but still not as large as the modern city (those boundaries were roughly set by 1954, fully amalgamated in 1998). From Runneymede to Downtown Hamilton is roughly 33 miles, still well within Toronto's 50-mile range.

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03-23-2013, 05:29 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
From Runneymede to Downtown Hamilton is roughly 33 miles, still well within Toronto's 50-mile range.
Thats quite interesting, never seen that early a map or graph before, thanks for posting it.... so from Runnymede to the 1917 City of Hamilton municipal boundaries were at 33miles? I'll try & find that, look it up, though obviously from a legal perspective not so sure a Judge or lets say a Board of Adjudicators attached to one of the governmental agencies overseeing complaints about restrictive trade practices would be buying such an argument. They might though. And if argued vociferously enough by a real sharp cookie, force them to seriously question that 50 mile proviso altogether which Im assuming now on the western boundaries reaches to the Etobicoke/Mississauga boundary? Or has Oakville also been "assimilated" into the GTA as well? No idea.... my nose starts to bleed, go all dizzy north of the 401 from Avenue Road over to Bayview, anywhere east of Mount Pleasant or west of Spadina. Total snob. But I do love Hamilton. KW/Guelph etc. Oddball I guess.

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03-23-2013, 08:29 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by HamiltonFan View Post
I suppose the bottom line is that 4.1 and 4.3 don't really matter because the nhl controls franchise location, and if you approach them with a location they don't like (such as Hamilton), then you're simply not getting your team, regardless of what anything says in the constitution.

The nhl is, always has been, and always will be an 'old boys club', and unfortunately there's not a thing that anyone can do about it.
Completely agreed. They pretty much make up the rules as they see fit.

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03-23-2013, 09:19 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
Completely agreed. They pretty much make up the rules as they see fit.
Sadly, they do indeed HT. Whatevers convenient, expeditious. No critical thought long term. All here, right now.... anyhoo. Just for fun I tried to find a map on-line of the City of Hamiltons circa 1917 municipal boundaries so we could compare htp's contribution above to the Hammers of that era. htpwn figured out it was 33 miles from the then western Toronto boundary to Hamilton, and Im trying to see where I might be able to buy some more mileage as surely Hamilton must have expanded eastward & amalgamated with villages over the past 100yrs yes? So, do you know where such a map might be?

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03-24-2013, 01:01 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Im trying to see where I might be able to buy some more mileage as surely Hamilton must have expanded eastward & amalgamated with villages over the past 100yrs yes? So, do you know where such a map might be?
I read that Hamilton expanded and tookover the eastern township of Barton starting with a portion in 1947 and the last chunk in 1960 when Barton township ceased to exist and then Stoney Creek in 2001.



Last edited by Hamilton Tigers: 03-24-2013 at 01:46 PM.
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03-24-2013, 02:45 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
I read that Hamilton expanded and tookover the eastern township of Barton starting with a portion in 1947 and the last chunk in 1960 when Barton township ceased to exist and then Stoney Creek in 2001.
Ok, and ya, thats the same type of map I found on Hamiltons site & elsewhere, unable to really find anything absolutely definitive (though Im sure there are plenty of them in existence). Barton was a fairly huge swath of acreage, mileage eastward ho. Im thinking I could easily make an argument that in 1917 when the leagues Constitution was conceived & crafted a claim that Hamilton was & therefore still is outside that 50M radius "as the crow flies", language thats still included in that clause. Arguing all kinds of precedence, Land Treaty's, invoking the names of the once mighty & then dispossessed Seneca. The Oneida. Mohawk's & Cayuga's. The Hurons. I'll give you "as the crow flies" White Man from New York City, Tronna & Buffalo....

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03-24-2013, 05:51 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Ok, and ya, thats the same type of map I found on Hamiltons site & elsewhere, unable to really find anything absolutely definitive (though Im sure there are plenty of them in existence). Barton was a fairly huge swath of acreage, mileage eastward ho. Im thinking I could easily make an argument that in 1917 when the leagues Constitution was conceived & crafted a claim that Hamilton was & therefore still is outside that 50M radius "as the crow flies", language thats still included in that clause. Arguing all kinds of precedence, Land Treaty's, invoking the names of the once mighty & then dispossessed Seneca. The Oneida. Mohawk's & Cayuga's. The Hurons. I'll give you "as the crow flies" White Man from New York City, Tronna & Buffalo....
All of Hamilton gets swallowed into the 50 mile radius, even if old Hamilton was in St. Catherines, it's in.


Now if old Hamilton was out by Kitchener or a couple of miles north of Buffalo it would be outside the 50 mile zone.


Last edited by Confucius: 03-24-2013 at 05:58 PM.
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03-24-2013, 09:48 PM
  #234
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Hamilton is outside the 50 mile radius of Buffalo's so called territory 64.8 miles to be exact so in my opinion since the Buffalo Sabres don't have a territory claim to the Hamilton NHL. market so that means the Sabres don't get squat . That only leaves the MLSE. hurdle for Hamilton to over come in getting an NHL. team which should be no problem since MLSE. would do almost anything to keep an 2nd NHL. team out of the GTA. .

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03-25-2013, 08:12 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
Hamilton is outside the 50 mile radius of Buffalo's so called territory 64.8 miles to be exact so in my opinion since the Buffalo Sabres don't have a territory claim to the Hamilton NHL. market so that means the Sabres don't get squat . That only leaves the MLSE. hurdle for Hamilton to over come in getting an NHL. team which should be no problem since MLSE. would do almost anything to keep an 2nd NHL. team out of the GTA. .
Wasn't there some discussion in this thread stating that it would have to be 100 miles away because then their 50 mile radii would collide.

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03-25-2013, 09:07 AM
  #236
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
Hamilton is outside the 50 mile radius of Buffalo's so called territory 64.8 miles to be exact so in my opinion since the Buffalo Sabres don't have a territory claim to the Hamilton NHL. market so that means the Sabres don't get squat . That only leaves the MLSE. hurdle for Hamilton to over come in getting an NHL. team which should be no problem since MLSE. would do almost anything to keep an 2nd NHL. team out of the GTA. .
1) you incorrectly quote a 64.8 mile driving distance between arenas. that's wrong. the actual distance is the direct measure and it is about 54 miles, but wait ...

2) distance from arena to arena is also wrong. article 4.1 of the league's constitution indicates that “each member shall have exclusive territorial rights in the city in it is located and within 50 miles\80 kilometres of that city’s corporate limits.” so the correct distance is city limit to city limit, not arena to arena. look at a map of hamilton, the southern corporate boundary is glanbrook, more than 13 miles from Copps. look at a map of buffalo. the city limit is north delaware, more than 3 miles from first niagara.

3) the distance between glanbrook and north delaware is obviously less than 50 miles.

Conclusion) an NHL hockey team playing anywhere in hamilton would clearly infringe on the territorial rights of the buffalo sabres.

please stop trying to argue the opposite.

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03-25-2013, 10:25 AM
  #237
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And again, those territorial rules really don't matter in the real wold, in which the NHL, with input from all teams including the Sabres and Leafs, will make any such decisions.

Bottom line? Money rules.

Would it really be indemnification or capitalizing on opportunity?

If a case can be made that there is money to be made by all involved, then it'll happen.

Never say never.

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03-25-2013, 01:14 PM
  #238
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If you go on google maps & type in Buffalo NY. to Hamilton Ont. it will come up with a distance of 64.8 miles away & just to let everybody know I did not type in the distance from arena to arena .

MLSE. has a lot of clout with in the NHL. being that the leafs are the most valuble franchise in the League & easly persuade the rest of the NHL. BOG. to vote there way & that is why Hamilton has been shut out of getting an NHL. franchise & the same thing will happen to Markham if they build that arena because if MLSE. did not want an NHL. team in Hamilton what makes Markham think they will get one if they build that arena .

In my opinion MLSE. will do what ever it takes to make sure that no 2nd NHL. team sets up shop in the GTA. & that means givving up there teritory in Hamilton & alowing NHL. team to finally be put in Hamilton to do it they will .

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03-25-2013, 01:20 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
If you go on google maps & type in Buffalo NY. to Hamilton Ont. it will come up with a distance of 64.8 miles away & just to let everybody know I did not type in the distance from arena to arena .
and did you look at the purple line? it's hardly a straight one. it follows these things called roads.

and yes, both arenas are smack dab downtown, so that 64.8m is the distance it would be for you to drive ... on roads ... from one arena to the other.

please give this up. hamilton is within buffalo's territory. you are the only one arguing any different. to what extent that is an important point in potential indemnification negotiations is a different matter.

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03-25-2013, 01:52 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
please give this up. hamilton is within buffalo's territory. you are the only one arguing any different. to what extent that is an important point in potential indemnification negotiations is a different matter.
Ya, no matter how you slice n' dice it, both Buffalo & clearly Toronto will be requiring indemnification. Just how much & in what form, combination perhaps of cash & or broadcast rights depending on which direction one looks. Can be done creatively I should think, nothing dreadfully punitive.

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03-26-2013, 05:25 PM
  #241
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Heres an idea build an NHL. size arena along with a casino in Flambrough which is a suburb of Hamilton & is far enough away from both Toronto & Buffalo that could please everybody .

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03-27-2013, 08:39 PM
  #242
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Heres an idea build an NHL. size arena along with a casino in Flambrough which is a suburb of Hamilton & is far enough away from both Toronto & Buffalo that could please everybody .
Except no one who lives in Hamilton actually wants to drive to Flamborough.

It has to be in the downtown core for it to truly succeed and revitalize a stagnant part of the city.

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03-27-2013, 09:30 PM
  #243
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Except no one who lives in Hamilton actually wants to drive to Flamborough.

It has to be in the downtown core for it to truly succeed and revitalize a stagnant part of the city.
I agree to that any possible NHL. team in Hamilton should be placed in Hamilton's downtown core . What I was trying to say in regards to building an arena in Flambrough along with a posible casino is makking case for a regional team within Hamilton city limits that would be far enough away that the Leafs & to a lesser exteint the Sabres would not complain .

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04-04-2013, 06:36 AM
  #244
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And just when we thought the whole 'Otters to Hamilton' story was put to bed...

Bulldogs owner could buy Otters

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The owner of the Hamilton Bulldogs says he’s interested in acquiring an Ontario Hockey League franchise and helping finance a new arena in which it or the Bulldogs could play.

Bulldogs’ owner Michael Andlauer says he likes the OHL brand and has spoken to league commissioner David Branch about his interest.

“There’s no doubt the league knows I’m desirous of having a team,” he says. “It’s definitely on my radar. It’s all a matter of timing.”

Whether than means now or some time in the future is unclear. That said, Andlauer talked with Erie Otters’ owner Sherry Bassin about his franchise as recently as last week at the OHL Cup.
Quote:
There’s a wrinkle here, though. Andlauer’s new lease and his affiliation deal to be the farm team of the Habs each run for another three years. There is endless speculation that the Canadiens will eventually draw their prospects to a yet-to-be-built arena in Laval leaving Andlauer with an organization but no team.

An OHL team could adopt the Bulldogs’ name and keep hockey in town.

If he bought a team while still owning the AHL team, he says he could possibly have them play nearby for a few years then move them into Hamilton if the baby Habs left town.

Play in Brantford, for example, at the Civic Centre that’s undersized, but might work in the short term.

“I think it’s proven itself in Niagara, so I don’t know why it couldn’t (work there),” he says.

He says his staff could service both teams in the interim.
Honestly, I don't know what to make of it. Part of me is thinking that perhaps something else is going on behind the scenes that might cause Andlauer to think he has to vacate Copps. Why worry now about getting a junior team? He has three years at minimum to worry about affliation or perhaps moving to the OHL.

Well it's never dull regarding hockey in the steel town....

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04-04-2013, 08:03 AM
  #245
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That's awesome! I'd rather watch junior stars than low-level pros.

Maybe it'll lead to us hosting the WJCs again.

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04-04-2013, 09:03 AM
  #246
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That's awesome! I'd rather watch junior stars than low-level pros.
No difference for me.

Ho-hum. I'll stay home and watch NHL on TV.

Wonder what a newer, smaller arena would mean for Copps and Global Spectrum, if anything.

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04-04-2013, 09:47 AM
  #247
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Makes sense IMO for one of Ontario's biggest cities to get a junior hockey team. Good luck to them in doing so.

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04-04-2013, 10:48 AM
  #248
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No difference for me.

Ho-hum. I'll stay home and watch NHL on TV.

Wonder what a newer, smaller arena would mean for Copps and Global Spectrum, if anything.
But, why bother? I mean sure, I suppose it would be great to have another arena & facility in the area, maybe a what, 8500 seater or smaller? But what for when Hamiltons got Copps? We have the Giants out here in Vancouver playing out of the old Pacific Coliseum as the main tenants & their doing just fine. Beyond fine actually. Why couldnt the AHL or even an NHL club share Copps Coliseum with a Major Junior team? Is the guy expecting problems pursuant to the Lease with GS do you think, this idea of a new building providing leverage, or is he simply wishing to build a smaller facility that he owns & controls himself for strictly business reasons combined with some perhaps feelings of munificence & legacy? If he did this & lets say moved the AHL team in there, what the heck happens to Copps Coliseum? Just a shell for concerts & special events, its primary purpose & function falling into complete irrelevancy. Might just as well call up Loblaws.

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04-04-2013, 10:57 AM
  #249
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I'd be excited about the OHL too. I was very surprised that the Bulldogs reupped for three years, I assumed that the team was going to be in Laval for sure.

I hope that they don't call them the Bulldogs though. I would prefer something fresh myself.

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04-04-2013, 08:47 PM
  #250
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I'm a tad late to the party...just wanted to say that I think, although it's a big gamble on my part, that an NHL calibre rink that is being pushed as a concert venue in Markham may be a good thing for Hamilton.
Eventually the NHL will go to MLSE and say 'Look....another team has to go in this area...the market is too big and demand is too high. Now there is Markham or there is Hamilton'.
I gotta figger the MLSE brass will be jumping out of their seats yelling "HAMILTON!! HAMILTON!!"

From an NHL perspective I'd still think Hamilton is more attractive than Markham if renovations or a new building are on the horizon (5 to 10 years). Spreads things out a bit....and avoids the whole Clippers/Mets type thing.

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