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ATD 2012 Lineup Assassination Thread - Sam Pollock Division

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Old
03-23-2013, 01:27 PM
  #26
Sturminator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
I don't think Gilmour's defensive peak was short at all. If anything it was his time as an elite offensive force that was short. Same probably goes for Fedorov in terms of inconsistency...I think he was always good defensively, but pick and chose when to turn it up offensively.
Defense and offense blend together, as the best way to play defense is always simply not to give the opposing team the puck. Doug Gilmour at his best was terrific at possessing and controlling the puck, but the 80-something point Gilmour (pre-lockout) was not as defensively valuable as Mike Modano, in my opinion. You're probably right about Feds, though. I forgot about his second Selke. Such a strange player...usually, when a superstar feels like being lazy, it's defense that he ignores. You can throw Datsyuk in there, too, if you consider him a scoringliner.

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03-23-2013, 01:34 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Defense and offense blend together, as the best way to play defense is always simply not to give the opposing team the puck. Doug Gilmour at his best was terrific at possessing and controlling the puck, but the 80-something point Gilmour (pre-lockout) was not as defensively valuable as Mike Modano, in my opinion. You're probably right about Feds, though. I forgot about his second Selke. Such a strange player...usually, when a superstar feels like being lazy, it's defense that he ignores.
They were at different points in their careers during this time. Modano is at his peak, playing phenomenal 2-way hockey in his late 20's/early 30's, while Gilmour is in his mid-late 30's and already getting to the tail end of his career. I would look at it this way...

Early in each of their careers: Gilmour much better defensively
Peak/Prime: Mostly even, but Gilmour had a higher peak
Tail end of their careers: About even

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Old
03-23-2013, 01:40 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
At their best, sure, but how often and for how long were they at their best? Fedorov's effort level was very uneven, and Gilmour's peak as a superstar was quite short.
Fedorov's effort offensively was uneven, but it wasn't uneven defensively. If we're talking defense, I absolutely have him over Modano.

Gilmour, I agree with. He was good defensively, but he wasn't any better than Modano.

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03-23-2013, 01:42 PM
  #29
Hawkey Town 18
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Fedorov's effort offensively was uneven, but it wasn't uneven defensively. If we're talking defense, I absolutely have him over Modano.

Gilmour, I agree with. He was good defensively, but he wasn't any better than Modano.
I'm fine with them being even in terms of prime, but there's no doubt Gilmour has the longevity edge, he was known for his defensive play out of juniors and it went till the end of his career. Check his bio for quotes on both.

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03-23-2013, 01:45 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Here on the boards? The view is widespread and I myself have concurred.

The Modano I watched with Lehtinen on his wing was a totally different version than the Modano I saw in his early days.
You hit the nail on the head right there.

No doubt Modano improved defensively after his first half dozen seasons in the NHL as a soft one way player but lets be realistic here:

Hitchcock made the entire team smothering defensively and Modano wasn't even the best defensive player on his line.

My feeling is that he became good but looked very good because of his environment.

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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I saw lots of Modano in his Dallas years, and he was a very strong two-way player. I don't care what kind of a player he was in Minnesota -
He was a soft one-way guy for half a decade.

I think that figures into the all-time draft.

Modano did become good defensively as his whole team did, though.


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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Gilmour and Fedorov?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
At their best, sure, but how often and for how long were they at their best? Fedorov's effort level was very uneven, and Gilmour's peak as a superstar was quite short.
Surely you jest.

Fedorov was uneven offensively but better defensively than Modano quite easily. His peak season is better than anything Modano ever did.

Gilmour was a two-way player most of his career and his peak was massive and better than anything Modano ever did individually. On a full career value basis for sure he is better defensively.

And keep in mind I say this while fully acknowledging I would have drafted Modano if I had the chance. He is still one of the better legitimate two-way centers in this.. he has great consistency and longevity somewhat like Francis but a better goalscorer and skater but a worse playmaker.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 03-23-2013 at 01:50 PM.
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Old
03-23-2013, 01:51 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Early in each of their careers: Gilmour much better defensively
Peak/Prime: Mostly even, but Gilmour had a higher peak
Tail end of their careers: About even
Modano was at his peak for longer than Gilmour, though, who had lost a step already by his early 30's due to wear and tear on his body. The "tail end" of Mike Modano's career was really only the last two years, while Gilmour was over the hill for the last 7-8 seasons of his career.

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03-23-2013, 01:53 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
I'm fine with them being even in terms of prime, but there's no doubt Gilmour has the longevity edge, he was known for his defensive play out of juniors and it went till the end of his career. Check his bio for quotes on both.
Gilmour was not a dominant defensive player after his few big years in Toronto, though. He was still very good, but I don't think he was dominant. I dunno, maybe he has more "defensive career value" than Modano, but I still think he's closer to Yzerman and Modano there than he is to Fedorov.

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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Modano was at his peak for longer than Gilmour, though, who had lost a step already by his early 30's due to wear and tear on his body. The "tail end" of Mike Modano's career was really only the last two years, while Gilmour was over the hill for the last 7-8 seasons of his career.
Agreed. Gilmour in NJ was a very responsible defensive player, but he wasn't a dominant one any longer.

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03-23-2013, 02:09 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
He was a soft one-way guy for half a decade.
And Gilmour was a glorified checkingliner with questionable wheels for almost a whole decade. What of it?

Quote:
Gilmour was a two-way player most of his career and his peak was massive and better than anything Modano ever did individually. On a full career value basis for sure he is better defensively.
Gilmour was definitely better than Modano for two seasons, but he also burned out faster.

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03-23-2013, 02:51 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
No doubt Modano improved defensively after his first half dozen seasons in the NHL as a soft one way player but lets be realistic here ... [Modano] was a soft one-way guy for half a decade.
Guy Lafleur wasn't a soft, one-way guy ... he was a star scorer. Modano was 4th on his team in scoring as a rookie, and the team went to the finals in his second year. His third season -- 92/93 -- he was the best player on the team and he stayed that way for basically the next 14 years. Modano's job his first year in Dallas wasn't two-way play ... it was being the face of the franchise and scoring all the goals.

People forget that before Ken Hitchcock arrived in Dallas, the coach and GM of the Dallas Stars was Bob Gainey. Do you think Bob Gainey tried to teach Modano to play two-way hockey but wasn't able to ??? No ... Gainey needed Modano to score goals, which is exactly what he did on a very bad Dallas Stars team the first few years in Texas.
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Hitchcock made the entire team smothering defensively and Modano wasn't even the best defensive player on his line.
Not a fair statement. You can't criticize someone's two-way play just because they played alongside Bob Gainey or Marcel Pronovost or Jere Lehtinen. Modano's two-way game was stellar. Of course Ken Hitchcock had an influence on Modano's game ... do you think Glen Sather didn't influence Gretzky, Messier and Coffey? After the coaches had those influences, the players did their thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Fedorov was uneven offensively but better defensively than Modano quite easily. His peak season is better than anything Modano ever did.
Fedorov's Selke seasons? Fedorov didn't win the Selke the seasons he played exceptionally good two-way hockey ... he won the Selke the seasons his scoring went above 100 pts. I challenge you to watch actual games and find evidence that Fedorov was a better instinctual defender than Modano ... they were so similar, it's scary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Gilmour was a two-way player most of his career and his peak was massive and better than anything Modano ever did individually. On a full career value basis for sure he is better defensively.
What peak are you talking about? The two years in Toronto? His offensive game was ordinary the rest of his career.

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Old
03-23-2013, 03:11 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by ck26 View Post
Of course Ken Hitchcock had an influence on Modano's game ... do you think Glen Sather didn't influence Gretzky, Messier and Coffey? After the coaches had those influences, the players did their thing.
Al Arbour's influence on Bryan Trottier (and the Islanders' team defense) is probably the best parallel to Hitch and Modano, and no one ever knocks Trottier for it.

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03-23-2013, 03:33 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Al Arbour's influence on Bryan Trottier (and the Islanders' team defense) is probably the best parallel to Hitch and Modano, and no one ever knocks Trottier for it.
Why should they know anyone for it? The coach asks a player to adapt to the teams system and he does. Hes a good player. This goes for Trotts and Modano.

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03-23-2013, 03:57 PM
  #37
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Why should they knock anyone for it?
I don't think they should.

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03-23-2013, 04:01 PM
  #38
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I don't think they should.
If it wasnt clear. I was agreeing with you but gave my take on it too.

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03-23-2013, 04:04 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Gilmour was not a dominant defensive player after his few big years in Toronto, though. He was still very good, but I don't think he was dominant. I dunno, maybe he has more "defensive career value" than Modano, but I still think he's closer to Yzerman and Modano there than he is to Fedorov.
Perhaps a closer look is warranted for when exactly Gilmour and Modano were "dominant" defensively, but we can definitely agree on this...Fedorov over both

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Old
03-23-2013, 04:05 PM
  #40
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If it wasnt clear. I was agreeing with you but gave my take on it too.
I understood your meaning. I just have a bad habit of trying to answer rhetorical questions.

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Old
03-23-2013, 04:53 PM
  #41
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Les Nordiques de Québec

(1972-1995)

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Head Coach: Peter Laviolette
Assistant Coach: Father David Bauer

Richard Martin - Mark Messier - Bill Cook
Sid Smith - Eric Lindros - Didier Pitre
Alf Smith - Fred Stanfield - Gordie Drillon
Mel Bridgman - Michal Handzus - Stan Smyl
Art Chapman
Orland Kurtenbach

Jack Stewart - Babe Siebert
Frantisek Pospisil - Leo Boivin
František Tikal - Ron Greschner
Gilles Marotte

Tom Barrasso
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Mark Messier - Gordie Drillon - Bill Cook
Babe Siebert - Didier Pitre

Richard Martin - Sid Smith - Eric Lindros
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Old
03-23-2013, 05:12 PM
  #42
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Still going to draft another defenseman but got my forwards, goaltending and coaching all picked, any thoughts or comments:?

Baltimore Blades




Head Coach: Pat Burns

Cy Denneny-Bobby Clarke (C)-Rod Gilbert
Dean Prentice-Adam Oates -Peter Bondra
J.P. Parise-Brent Sutter-Dirk Graham
Ryan Smyth-Jonathan Toews-Milan Hejduk

Spares: Gerard Gallant, Alexander Almetov (C)

Tim Horton (A)-Jan Suchy
Craig Hartsburg-Red Horner (A)
Steve Smith-Phil Russell

Spares: Doug Bodger

Roy Worters
Evgeni Nabokov

Special Teams:

PP 1: Cy Denneny-Adam Oates-Rod Gilbert-Jan Suchy-Peter Bondra
PP 2: Dean Prentice-Bobby Clarke-Milan Hejduk-Craig Hartsburg-Tim Horton

PK 1: Dirk Graham-Bobby Clarke-Tim Horton-Red Horner
PK 2: Dean Prentice-Brent Sutter-Jan Suchy-Phil Russell

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Old
03-23-2013, 09:00 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ck26 View Post
Guy Lafleur wasn't a soft, one-way guy ... he was a star scorer. Modano was 4th on his team in scoring as a rookie, and the team went to the finals in his second year. His third season -- 92/93 -- he was the best player on the team and he stayed that way for basically the next 14 years. Modano's job his first year in Dallas wasn't two-way play ... it was being the face of the franchise and scoring all the goals.
All this has nothing to do with Modano supposedly playing strong both ways early in his career which is what I was taking issue with..

As I said, he was a perimeter scorer early in his career. I'm not holding that against him - he was a teenager coming in and a player whose job it obviously was to provide some offense.

I will however go ahead and hold it against him while he is being revised into some two way hockey god for his entire career.

I distinctly remember a remark in one of the NHL roundups either in the paper or THN saying that Modano finally realized that he had to pay a price and go into the dirty areas to take the next step in the NHL the year he scored 50.


Quote:
People forget that before Ken Hitchcock arrived in Dallas, the coach and GM of the Dallas Stars was Bob Gainey. Do you think Bob Gainey tried to teach Modano to play two-way hockey but wasn't able to ??? No ... Gainey needed Modano to score goals, which is exactly what he did on a very bad Dallas Stars team the first few years in Texas.Not a fair statement.
Gainey did try to make the Stars more disciplined for sure. He also gave credit to Pierre Page for starting that process before Gainey took over as coach.

They were never better than 10th out of 21 teams in goals against with Gainey as coach though.

Hitchcock took it to another level. His first full season after taking over from Gainey they were 3rd in goals against.

So now that you admit he wasn't playing a lot of defense his first few years in Texas.. can we just admit that what I said was correct?

Modano didn't play much of a two-way game until the whole team was in 97. So that is a third of his career roughly.


Quote:
You can't criticize someone's two-way play just because they played alongside Bob Gainey or Marcel Pronovost or Jere Lehtinen. Modano's two-way game was stellar. Of course Ken Hitchcock had an influence on Modano's game ...

I am not criticizing Modano's two way play during his best years. I think he was a very good two way front line center in those days.

I do believe that his defense is being pretty overrated around here though, and I do believe that part of that is because he was playing with a sublime defensive winger on a stifling defensive team with strong goaltending.

The guys he is being compared to here were always the best defensive player on their line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fort Worth Star Telegram, Nov 10, 1997

If only Bill Nye the Science Guy could give lessons in hockey chemistry - maybe then we'd understand. Unfortunately, it's not that easy. How does a line (Benoit Hogue, Joe Nieuwendyk and Pat Verbeek to be specific) that has failed time and again finally click? How does one player (Mike Modano) go from NHL's best to average just because of an injury to a so-called role player (Jere Lehtinen)? And how do you predict either?

....

(from google article stub)

But it's no secret that Modano is a better defensive player when he has the defensive-minded Lehtinen on his side.

More evidence that Modano turned it on when Hitchcock was in his first full season and with Lehtinen on his wing:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dallas Morning News, PRIZE PACKAGE Hitchcock tops team's slate of award hopefuls Author: Tim Cowlishaw, Apr 3, 1997
(from stub)

Modano has gone to another level on defense. But Lehtinen may be the most positionally sound player on the Stars as well as the best forechecker.
At the end of the season more evidence that 1997 was the start of Modano as a true two-way player while in Hitchcock's system and with Lehtinen:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano selected MVP Author: Tim Cowlishaw Staff Writer of The Dallas Morning News Publish Date: May 3, 1997

Mike Modano has long been the Stars' greatest offensive weapon.

When he added defense to his game this season, he became Dallas' most complete player.

Modano has been selected as the team's most valuable player by The Dallas Morning News hockey writers. He will be honored at the Dallas All-Sports Association's annual banquet in February.
Quote:
Fedorov's Selke seasons? Fedorov didn't win the Selke the seasons he played exceptionally good two-way hockey ... he won the Selke the seasons his scoring went above 100 pts. I challenge you to watch actual games and find evidence that Fedorov was a better instinctual defender than Modano ... they were so similar, it's scary.
I seriously cannot believe that Modano is now being considered a defensive forward of the same caliber as Sergei Fedorov by more than one person around here...

I don't even know where to start.

I think I can however rest my case that Modano's defense is getting overrated around here.

Quote:
What peak are you talking about? The two years in Toronto? His offensive game was ordinary the rest of his career.
Gilmour 10 best adjusted points: 102,100,89, 85,79,77,76,72,72,70
Modano 10 best adjusted points: 95, 92,91,89,88,86,84,78,75,75

Gilmour peaks better, Modano makes up ground in the middle and especially in the end of their careers his longevity comes into play fully.. but we're not talking a huge difference here at their bests.

About 3 points a year for Modano over a 10 year span.

So I guess Modano was ordinary offensively too?

I think Gilmour or Modano can play on my team any day, personally.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 03-23-2013 at 09:21 PM.
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Old
03-23-2013, 09:18 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
No doubt Modano improved defensively after his first half dozen seasons in the NHL as a soft one way player but lets be realistic here:

Hitchcock made the entire team smothering defensively and Modano wasn't even the best defensive player on his line.

My feeling is that he became good but looked very good because of his environment.
Agreed.

Gilmour and Fedorov stood out more as leaders defensively on their lines, whereas Modano fit in very well with his winger and coach. Modano was not an all-time GREAT defensive center, but he was very responsible defensively as his career progressed. Don't expect him to shutdown opposing great centers, but he won't be a liability and actually generate some turnovers by the opposition, break up some rushes, prevent some open one-timers and surges to the net.

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03-23-2013, 09:23 PM
  #45
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Agreed.

Gilmour and Fedorov stood out more as leaders defensively on their lines, whereas Modano fit in very well with his winger and coach. Modano was not an all-time GREAT defensive center, but he was very responsible defensively as his career progressed. Don't expect him to shutdown opposing great centers, but he won't be a liability and actually provide some turnovers, break up some rushes, prevent some open one-timers and surges to the net.
Thank you

Like I said I still think he is a legit two-way guy in this but I think he is getting a bit overrated as an individual defensively when people start saying he was as good as Fedorov etc.

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03-23-2013, 09:35 PM
  #46
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Why should they know anyone for it? The coach asks a player to adapt to the teams system and he does. Hes a good player. This goes for Trotts and Modano.
I agree whole heartedly. It annoys me when players are punished for doing what their coaches tell them. Most commonly, when coaches ask them to play score first hockey, they shouldn't be written off defensively when they show aptitude when asked.

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03-23-2013, 10:05 PM
  #47
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I agree whole heartedly. It annoys me when players are punished for doing what their coaches tell them. Most commonly, when coaches ask them to play score first hockey, they shouldn't be written off defensively when they show aptitude when asked.
Perhaps you need to draft a strong defensive coach to get full defensive value out of Modano. In that case, Bob Johnson probably isn't the right guy.

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03-24-2013, 01:14 AM
  #48
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I seriously cannot believe that Modano is now being considered a defensive forward of the same caliber as Sergei Fedorov by more than one person around here...
You know, I have already corrected myself vis-á-vis Fedorov. In fact, I had already done it by the first time you posted in this thread. Actually reading what others have said would perhaps be of value to you here.

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03-24-2013, 01:41 AM
  #49
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Les Nordiques de Québec

(1972-1995)

General Manager: DaveG & EagleBelfour
Head Coach: Peter Laviolette
Assistant Coach: Father David Bauer

Richard Martin - Mark Messier - Bill Cook
Sid Smith - Eric Lindros - Didier Pitre
Alf Smith - Fred Stanfield - Gordie Drillon
Mel Bridgman - Orland Kurtenbach - Stan Smyl
Art Chapman
XXX

Jack Stewart - Babe Siebert
Frantisek Pospisil - Leo Boivin
František Tikal - Ron Greschner
Gilles Marotte

Tom Barrasso
Eddie Giacomin


Powerplay:
Mark Messier - Sid Smith - Bill Cook
Babe Siebert - Didier Pitre

Richard Martin - Eric Lindros - Gordie Drillon
Fred Stanfield - Frantisek Pospisil

Penalty Kill:
Alf Smith - Mark Messier
Jack Stewart - Leo Boivin

Stan Smyl - Mel Bridgman
Frantisek Pospisil - Frantisek Tikal

Bill Cook - Orland Kurtenbach
Ron Greschner - Babe Siebert
That is one hammering 4th line....and personally, I like that 2nd PP unit better than the first.

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03-24-2013, 01:52 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Les Nordiques de Québec

(1972-1995)

General Manager: DaveG & EagleBelfour
Head Coach: Peter Laviolette
Assistant Coach: Father David Bauer

Richard Martin - Mark Messier - Bill Cook
Sid Smith - Eric Lindros - Didier Pitre
Alf Smith - Fred Stanfield - Gordie Drillon
Mel Bridgman - Orland Kurtenbach - Stan Smyl
Art Chapman
XXX

Jack Stewart - Babe Siebert
Frantisek Pospisil - Leo Boivin
František Tikal - Ron Greschner
Gilles Marotte

Tom Barrasso
Eddie Giacomin


Powerplay:
Mark Messier - Sid Smith - Bill Cook
Babe Siebert - Didier Pitre

Richard Martin - Eric Lindros - Gordie Drillon
Fred Stanfield - Frantisek Pospisil

Penalty Kill:
Alf Smith - Mark Messier
Jack Stewart - Leo Boivin

Stan Smyl - Mel Bridgman
Frantisek Pospisil - Frantisek Tikal

Bill Cook - Orland Kurtenbach
Ron Greschner - Babe Siebert
That is one mean team. You're going to beat the **** out of a lot of people with that lineup.

Biggest issue I can see right away would be the PK. The defence is just OK, and the forwards are pretty weak. Considering the amount of time you'll be short-handed, that could cause some issues.

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