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All Encompassing Tortorella Thread Pt. II

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Old
03-24-2013, 12:32 PM
  #176
Stugots
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
Anything we're good at, we're good at because of the players. Anything we're bad at, we're bad because of the coaching. Funny how that works.

TB's offensive guns are actually productive and having good seasons. We have Nash having a normal season and 2 big scorers along for the ride. If we had 3 big scorers playing like 3 big scorers, the difference wouldn't be very pronounced. As I've said in other threads, Richards and Gaborik's poor play is not because of Torts - it's on them and it's just awful.

There was a thread on the main boards just a few days ago about how Tampa wasn't standing up for each other and didn't have a hard, cohesive team identity. Sounds like this team. Boucher isn't the answer.

Try to move pieces around to get a real bottom 6. Try to get Richards and Gabby going or get rid of them. See how the team starts off next season with a well thought out lineup and a normal schedule.
With the Rangers, Torts has finished 9th, 8th, 1st, and now he is in 9th currently. This is Gaborik's first poor season as a Ranger (I don't count 2 years ago because of the injury), and Richards despite only putting up 66 points was great for us last year in big situations.

Why are you more inclined to getting rid of 2 of our best players after one BAD season in lieu of Torts who has had only one really good season?

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03-24-2013, 12:37 PM
  #177
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9th, 8th 1st, and now currently 9th under Torts. I really fail to see what this guy has done to help

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03-24-2013, 12:41 PM
  #178
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Big fan of Boucher. The fact that the players were tuning him out, though, it a little worrisome - we should remember, though, that he's fairly young for a coach. Also, Tampa's roster isn't exactly fantastic. Their defensive game is non existent, as is most of their defensive core.

If we replaced Tortorella, I'd want Boucher. He's a tactician, the type of coach we haven't had in ages. Since the lockout ended, we've had "player's coach" Tom Renney and "*******" John Tortorella. No in between. This team needs a coach who's best asset is his mind for the game.

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Old
03-24-2013, 12:43 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Gaborik scored 40 goals in the system. Nash is basically a point per game player in this system.




De ja vu. The same thing was said about Renney.
How much secondary scoring have we gotten? Perhaps they are to worried about making a mistake or being out there for a goal against that all they can do is grind there brains out, and they don't even do that effectively a good part of the time.

What's Renney got to do with anything? The players quit on him too. He was also inept as far as offense goes.

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03-24-2013, 12:49 PM
  #180
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How much secondary scoring have we gotten? Perhaps they are to worried about making a mistake or being out there for a goal against that all they can do is grind there brains out, and they don't even do that effectively a good part of the time.
If Richards and Gaborik were producing half as well as they can, nobody would be complaining about secondary scoring. And these are guys who have produced in "this system"

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What's Renney got to do with anything? The players quit on him too. He was also inept as far as offense goes.
It has to do with the same oversimplified comments were said about him. He was stifling creativity and Torts was going to open up the offense. At what point does it fall on the players? Especially players who have been effective in "this system"?

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03-24-2013, 12:59 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
If Richards and Gaborik were producing half as well as they can, nobody would be complaining about secondary scoring. And these are guys who have produced in "this system"



It has to do with the same oversimplified comments were said about him. He was stifling creativity and Torts was going to open up the offense. At what point does it fall on the players? Especially players who have been effective in "this system"?
If players quit on or tune out a coach what else can you do? I'm not pinning it all on Torts because at the end of the day it is the players who play the games.

We all know how Torts is and his personality, it isn't far fetched that Gaborik has gotten sick of it, as well as a few others possibly. I just don't believe that he doesn't have something to do with the offense not producing, his system isn't perfect.

Sure we could trade a few guys, but in the end we will replace them with guys who are asked to be defensively responsible above all else. Which is fine, unless it's taken to the extreme and try start second guessing everything.

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Old
03-24-2013, 01:04 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Barbara Underhill View Post
I'm not arguing that it's all Torts fault, but his system is terrible. Do you really enjoy watchin our top two lines dump and chase? I don't. What happened to "safe is death"?

I'm not arguing that Boucher is the answer either he's a relatively unproven coach. But he knows the offensive side of things as they pertain to today's NHL.

I've been saying for quite awhile that Torts needs to let the top two lines play some hockey and encourage some creativity. He needs to lay off the macho man dictatorship as well. He isn't adapting to a changed roster, instead he's going to run guys out of town like Gaborik.

I like Torts and he has done a good job her sans this year, but no one is safe when a team with as high a talent level as we have will most likely miss the playoffs.

I think he's wore thin on the players to be honest.

I enjoy watching Hags - Step - Callahan dump and chase because they're good at it and it's effective. I don't enjoy watching Gaborik - Richards - Nash dump and chase but they don't do it as often. Gaborik wasn't dumping and chasing the past few years and he still doesn't do it much. Nash almost never dumps - he carries the puck in almost every time he gets the chance. Richards dumps to nobody frequently. I think that's because he's not thinking the game clearly and dumping it in is the last resort plan when there's no play.

What happened to safe is death? It didn't work, while team defense and tough play down low did work, last year, with fantastic results. The lineup has changed since then and the strategy should be tweaked, however it shouldn't be tweaked back to run and gun because this team isn't built for it. People talk about the D and goalie as if they aren't at all products of a smart defensive system - start playing run and gun and let me know how good the D is after a few dozen games of that.

I like Torts overall and I agree with you that he shouldn't be safe considering how bad the team has been this year and how obvious it is that the strategy needs some tweaks. Having said that, I don't think it's wise to hire another coach just because they're unemployed and this team isn't doing well. Ruff? Boucher? If they weren't without a job nobody would want them behind this bench. Don't hire someone for the sake of hiring someone.

Hard to say if he's worn thin on the players. I think the guys that showed up so far this year seem pretty happy with him and he's done a lot of good as far as developing some of the younger guys so far.

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Old
03-24-2013, 01:20 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Stugots View Post
With the Rangers, Torts has finished 9th, 8th, 1st, and now he is in 9th currently. This is Gaborik's first poor season as a Ranger (I don't count 2 years ago because of the injury), and Richards despite only putting up 66 points was great for us last year in big situations.

Why are you more inclined to getting rid of 2 of our best players after one BAD season in lieu of Torts who has had only one really good season?
First, let me say that, IMO, this season is almost a lost cause. Luckily, this format will not be repeated for a decade, if ever. Next year will be normal - normal length offseason, normal length camp, preseason games to work on strategy without losing points, etc. If it were up to me, I wouldn't make huge changes, just try to move pieces around to get a bottom 6 that can do what a bottom 6 is supposed to do, be hard to play against and be at least a vague threat to score goals, and then see how the team looks next year in a normal format.

Having said that, people are calling for huge changes. If huge changes are going to be made, I think that trading Gaborik and doing something with Richards are wiser than firing the coach halfway through a shortened season after doing so well last year. Again, if I were at the desk, neither would happen.

It's Gaborik's first poor season as a Ranger, yes. But his contract is up next year. He's 31 and is going to command a deal too large to keep him along with younger players on the upswing after next season. I'm not sold on getting rid of him before then, but I think that if a big change needs to be made and there's a good return for him that can maybe add some depth at C and balance out the contract situation - now might not be the worst time in the world to pull the trigger. Honestly, I like Gaborik and I think he's been a big-time game-breaking player most of his time here. I'm not married to trading him, but the idea isn't so crazy taking the circumstances into account.

Richards I feel differently about. The guy got a retirement contract, had an underwhelming season last year and now this year, he looks lost and borderline useless. Having bad puck luck is one thing - this is not that. The guy looks like he didn't prepare for the season. That's completely unacceptable for a supposed leader making that sort of money and playing 1C. It's too important a position to be waiting for someone to start playing and acting like a professional. If NYR wants to really try to get a cup while Hank and Callahan and Nash are here along with the unsustainably awesome D corp of McD, Girardi, Staal and MDZ - something needs to happen fast. Richards is having the biggest negative effect on the team and he's in the position to have the biggest positive effect being a first line center. If there's any way at all to trade him for a Stepan-like 2C with potential and a strong work ethic, I'd do it and run away laughing.

Lastly, I'm not against getting rid of Torts no matter what. I'm against getting rid of him based on this season and it's wacko format. Yeah, other teams are dealing with it well, that doesn't change the fact that this team isn't. It sucks, but not every team is equipped to handle the same situation the same way. Also, I don't want to fire the guy to replace him with unemployed coach X, Y or Z. If there's a coach out there who seems like a really good fit, that's one thing. I don't see him. Ruff coached some awful, awful Sabres teams and Boucher didn't find success with an offense that was deeper and more talented than this one.

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Old
03-24-2013, 03:59 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
Ill go on record And say this. Torts will never win a cup here. You can trade this guy or that guy. Sign this guy or that guy And It won't matter. THE problem is HIM
It amazes me Lundsanity how stubbornly you defend Gaborik yet trash Torts like its your job. You want Gaborik here till he's 40 an Torts gone tomorrow.

Fact is, Gaborik scored 40 goals 3 years ago and 40 goals last year under the Torts system. This year, same system, Gaborik (and Richards for that matter) are underachieving. It's not Torts, it's them. In the playoffs last year, we had an injured and ineffective Gaborik and still made it to the ECF under the Torts system. I don't understand your logic.

If you take 2 of the top 3 guys on any team and have them underachieve, the team won't do well. That's not all on the coach. Give Torts a break, the players play the game, he's not in the battle.

Torts won a cup, along with Richards. They deserve more respect than what they get on this board.

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Old
03-24-2013, 04:06 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by zuckera1 View Post
It amazes me Lundsanity how stubbornly you defend Gaborik yet trash Torts like its your job. You want Gaborik here till he's 40 an Torts gone tomorrow.

Fact is, Gaborik scored 40 goals 3 years ago and 40 goals last year under the Torts system. This year, same system, Gaborik (and Richards for that matter) are underachieving. It's not Torts, it's them. In the playoffs last year, we had an injured and ineffective Gaborik and still made it to the ECF under the Torts system. I don't understand your logic.

If you take 2 of the top 3 guys on any team and have them underachieve, the team won't do well. That's not all on the coach. Give Torts a break, the players play the game, he's not in the battle.

Torts won a cup, along with Richards. They deserve more respect than what they get on this board.
8th place first year. Then 9th place. Then 1st. Now currently in 9th. He's done nothing for THIS franchise. I don't care What he did with TB 9 years ago

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Old
03-24-2013, 04:10 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
8th place first year. Then 9th place. Then 1st. Now currently in 9th. He's done nothing for THIS franchise. I don't care What he did with TB 9 years ago
All true, yet the team was riddled with Redden, Drury, and Gomez during those first two years. We'll finish higher than 9th this year.

My point is that you can't blame the system for Gaborik and Richards' poor play, because they have been successful under the system in the past (especially Gaborik).

Those two and poor 3-4 line depth is our problem right now, then the Powerplay, then Torts. Like I said, have 2 of the top 3 guys on any team underachieve and see where they go. You can't put all the blame on the coach.

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Old
03-24-2013, 04:34 PM
  #187
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All true, yet the team was riddled with Redden, Drury, and Gomez during those first two years. We'll finish higher than 9th this year.

My point is that you can't blame the system for Gaborik and Richards' poor play, because they have been successful under the system in the past (especially Gaborik).

Those two and poor 3-4 line depth is our problem right now, then the Powerplay, then Torts. Like I said, have 2 of the top 3 guys on any team underachieve and see where they go. You can't put all the blame on the coach.
Yes but we are underperforming under him that's my point. You can the coach before trading Gabs and buying out Richards. See what a new coach can do. Richards can be bought out after 14 and Gabs could be draft deal or deadline if not working out.

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Old
03-24-2013, 04:54 PM
  #188
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Gaborik will continue to get a pass from me until he's put back on the RW full-time.

Depth is an issue. Torts weening out offensive talent and plugging in more grinders is an issue. Production from the top - 6 is an issue as well, but see above. No pass for Richards.

Defensemen making terrible decisions with the puck, and players not being able to execute an odd-man rush is a coaching/system problem, one that has been prevalent since Tortorella came to town.

Get this loser out of here already, and bring in a coach who can use the Rangers offensive players and two-way defensemen to their ability.

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Old
03-24-2013, 05:11 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
Yes but we are underperforming under him that's my point. You can the coach before trading Gabs and buying out Richards. See what a new coach can do. Richards can be bought out after 14 and Gabs could be draft deal or deadline if not working out.
We dramatically overachieved with him last year, were 2 goals away from the Stanley Cup finals. I just feel that if Gaborik and Richards were themselves, we'd be contending for the division title against Pittsburgh.

You can't blame the system for Gaborik and Richards' blunders this year, so the ultimate question is who deserves more blame? Them or the coach?

It's the same system as last year, it's the players fault. Not the coach

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03-24-2013, 05:17 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by zuckera1 View Post
We dramatically overachieved with him last year, were 2 goals away from the Stanley Cup finals. I just feel that if Gaborik and Richards were themselves, we'd be contending for the division title against Pittsburgh.

You can't blame the system for Gaborik and Richards' blunders this year, so the ultimate question is who deserves more blame? Them or the coach?

It's the same system as last year, it's the players fault. Not the coach

Then we may as well fire the 19 guys , keep Torts and bring all the Whale up .

Or...we bring in a new coach that plays a system that is more practical for our current top 6-8 guys who have given up on Torts and will continue to do so until he is gone...our Top 3 are going nowhere...Torts will go first . Yes...Richards will be gone at the end of 2014 as will Gabby or before . Either way...Gabby at this point absolutely hates Torts .

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03-24-2013, 05:18 PM
  #191
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Will losing tonight get him fired?

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03-24-2013, 05:25 PM
  #192
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We dramatically overachieved with him last year, were 2 goals away from the Stanley Cup finals. I just feel that if Gaborik and Richards were themselves, we'd be contending for the division title against Pittsburgh.

You can't blame the system for Gaborik and Richards' blunders this year, so the ultimate question is who deserves more blame? Them or the coach?

It's the same system as last year, it's the players fault. Not the coach
Yes those 2 have under performed but this is not the same tough group we had last year. Our top 9 isn't really fit to play thia style imo

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03-24-2013, 05:48 PM
  #193
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Then we may as well fire the 19 guys , keep Torts and bring all the Whale up .

Or...we bring in a new coach that plays a system that is more practical for our current top 6-8 guys who have given up on Torts and will continue to do so until he is gone...our Top 3 are going nowhere...Torts will go first . Yes...Richards will be gone at the end of 2014 as will Gabby or before . Either way...Gabby at this point absolutely hates Torts .
I didn't realize Hagelin, Stepan, Callahan, Nash or any of the defense had quit on him. The guys who look like they've quit on him are older, didn't play over the offseason and are having the worst statistical years of their recent careers. What a coincidence.

Gabby shouldn't hate Torts. He had two of the best years of his entire career playing for Torts and went deeper into the playoffs than he had in a long, long time.

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03-24-2013, 05:56 PM
  #194
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Obviously the type of abrasive coach Torts is has a shelf life but I think he gets at least one more season before he is replaced. What's really hurting is Richards, Gabby and our bottom two lines are not up to par with last year. I think Gabby could recover from this slump but watching him his shot is predictable and I think he hasn't gotten back total strength in the shoulder. He likely wont be to full strength until next year. I would trade him for the right package but am not opposed to letting him play out his contract next year. Richards is another story. He HAS to be bought out or traded for a bag of pucks as there is no way we can afford to keep him at the current cap $. He looks lost and afraid to hold the puck anymore. Even if we sneak into the playoffs, and I think we will, there is NO WAY we beat a Boston or Pit.

Also, can anyone name a person on our team that has a great shot? We had a ton of shots against Florida but most of them were weak.

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Old
03-24-2013, 06:56 PM
  #195
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So..

Guy Boucher had plenty of offense.. No Defense...

The Rangers have no offense and plenty of defense...

Hmmmmmmm....
Hire Boucher as an assistant and kick Sullivan to the curb...or put both on the bench. I know Torts doesn't like having more than 2 coaches on the bench, but hey, 3 minds is better than 2 (especially when one of them is Sullivan's).

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03-24-2013, 06:57 PM
  #196
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Guy Boucher would definitely help this team get their offense together, would it be a good move to can Torts for him?

I'm for it.

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03-24-2013, 07:16 PM
  #197
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Guy Boucher or Ron Wilson?

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Old
03-24-2013, 07:41 PM
  #198
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All true, yet the team was riddled with Redden, Drury, and Gomez during those first two years. We'll finish higher than 9th this year.

My point is that you can't blame the system for Gaborik and Richards' poor play, because they have been successful under the system in the past (especially Gaborik).

Those two and poor 3-4 line depth is our problem right now, then the Powerplay, then Torts. Like I said, have 2 of the top 3 guys on any team underachieve and see where they go. You can't put all the blame on the coach.

Perhaps they have both tuned him out now?

Sure does look the rest of the guys have.

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03-24-2013, 07:42 PM
  #199
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Guy Boucher or Ron Wilson?
This isn't even remotely close.

Boucher every day of the week.

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03-24-2013, 07:43 PM
  #200
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This isn't even remotely close.

Boucher every day of the week.
I just saw the thread on Ron Wilson i thought he was okay cause of his offense.

the question should be Guy Boucher or Guy Boucher?

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