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Old
08-07-2006, 02:53 PM
  #76
Catch-22
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
As unpopular as Ribeiro is here, I'm sure at least 2/3 of GMs in the league would pick him up off exit waivers.

On the contrary. Here is where he is most popular, for political reasons.

Which GMs would you be referring to and who would he replace?

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08-07-2006, 03:09 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Catch-22 View Post
On the contrary. Here is where he is most popular, for political reasons.

Which GMs would you be referring to and who would he replace?
Sigh. I'd actually go through the teams if I had time, but my point is that he's only one season removed from a very good rookie campaign. For all we know, not playing during the lockout (only 17 games) is what caused such a sluggish start last season, but he then picked it up during the season. I'm not going to tell you that he's better than Staal or Federov in their respective Cup-winning years, because such comparisons are ludicrous since teams win the Stanley Cup while players have seasons in which their players play above their usual ability levels. Statistics, believe it or not, actually show Ribeiro is an above average player in the NHL.

A team wins a Stanley Cup because of the collective players playing well together, not -- as your "trend" points out -- because of the two centres (whose stats are arguably inflated by the players surrounding them). If you'd like, I can make a case for a team needing an elite goaltender to win the Stanley Cup, and thus "prove" we could never win with Huet, when logic and history points out that all you need is an average goaltender (or players, some of which are) having above-average seasons. I don't believe there is any evidence you can bring to light, given Ribeiro's short and relatively productive career, to prove that Montreal can't win a Stanley Cup with him on the team. Any such claim asserts ignorance of the basics of logic and intuition.

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08-07-2006, 03:46 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
Sigh. I'd actually go through the teams if I had time, but my point is that he's only one season removed from a very good rookie campaign. For all we know, not playing during the lockout (only 17 games) is what caused such a sluggish start last season, but he then picked it up during the season. I'm not going to tell you that he's better than Staal or Federov in their respective Cup-winning years, because such comparisons are ludicrous since teams win the Stanley Cup while players have seasons in which their players play above their usual ability levels. Statistics, believe it or not, actually show Ribeiro is an above average player in the NHL.

A team wins a Stanley Cup because of the collective players playing well together, not -- as your "trend" points out -- because of the two centres (whose stats are arguably inflated by the players surrounding them). If you'd like, I can make a case for a team needing an elite goaltender to win the Stanley Cup, and thus "prove" we could never win with Huet, when logic and history points out that all you need is an average goaltender (or players, some of which are) having above-average seasons. I don't believe there is any evidence you can bring to light, given Ribeiro's short and relatively productive career, to prove that Montreal can't win a Stanley Cup with him on the team. Any such claim asserts ignorance of the basics of logic and intuition.

If you read my post above, you'll realize that I've already acknowledged that you need many good elements. I repeat "Ribeiro is the BIGGEST obstacle to cup contention". Not necessarily the only one. I really recommend people read threads before responding because it's not fun to repeat one's self over and over.

If you like, forget the Cup winning years of all those players. Check their career stats and I'll bet you they're better in almost every category than Ribeiro. Are you going to tell me that over his career Mike has the potential to be a Sergei Federov, a Lecavalier, a Brind'Amour?

And are you sure about that last sentence? Are you ready to assert that Ribeiro will be around when the Habs are competing for a top spot? I have already put myself on the line and argued that he will not play on Montreal if/when we win the cup. With Gainey, we will compete so if you really are convinced he is the guy, why not say it?


Last edited by Catch-22: 08-07-2006 at 04:00 PM.
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08-07-2006, 04:00 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Catch-22 View Post
If you read my post above, you'll realize that I've already acknowledged that you need many good elements. I repeat "Ribeiro is the BIGGEST obstacle to cup contention". Not necessarily the only one. I really recommend people read threads before responding because it's not fun to repeat one's self over and over.

If you like, forget the Cup winning years of all those players. Check their career stats and I'll bet you they're better in almost every category than Ribeiro. Are you going to tell me that over his career Mike has the potential to be a Sergei Federov, a Lecavalier, a Brind'Amour?

And are you sure about that last sentence? Are you ready to assert that Ribeiro will be around when the Habs are competing for a top spot? I have already put myself on the line and argued that he will not play on Montreal if/when we win the cup. With Gainey, we will compete so if you really are convinced he is the guy, why not say it?
Well, Lecavalier is overrated, so I would say yeah, it's possible for him. None the less there's no point in beating a dead horse. I don't think your argument has much, if any, validity to it, and it's my contention that Ribeiro is equally able to put up one-season totals similar to any of those previously quoted, because that's all they are: one season.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that point, but you do claim that your reasoning answers "why Ribeiro cannot be ours if we want to win a cup", which is logically equivalent to "We cannot win a cup with Ribeiro" (assuming it is our desire to win a cup, if that's not the case, then all bets are off). So your argument should support that definitive statement, which it doesn't. However, if English isn't your first language, then I'll give you a pass, since you might not have known your statement was definitive.

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08-07-2006, 04:30 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Catch-22 View Post
I am trying to reach Ribeiro fans. Personally, I am more into player qualities. And I don;t think Ribs has the skill set and qualities, regardless of his stats. But to reach Ribeiro fans obsessed with his offensive talent, I used numbers.

About the UFA comment. Maybe. It depends who. Arnott is 15 times more valuable than Ribeiro, though, and I'm sure every GM in the league agrees about that. It's not always realistic to get guys like that, though. I would like to see Plekanec get a chance. He fast, gritty, good in the defensive end, very talented offensively and good on faceoffs. He has the ability, in my opinion, to be a good second line player.

Frankly, I realize Ribeiro will get another chance. I think the organization would prefer to have replaced him over the summer, but because they couldn't they signed him for one more year. Because they signed him, they will surely at least give him a shot. I also realize that sitting here typing is easier than being Carbonneau, but if it were up to me and I couldn't find his replacement, I would have him on line four to minimize the damage he causes on defense. Something like this, with maybe a couple of tweaks:

Samsonov-Koivu-Ryder
Higgins-Plekanec-Kovalev
Perezhogin-Bonk-Johnson
Begin-Ribeiro-Murray
in all honesty i think rebeiro will be given his shot at first or second line center and he will fail to produce the required results and will either be waived or traded before the trade deadline . i really like your line-up but with a couple of changes . first line = samsonov-plekanec-kovalev , second line = higgins-koivu-ryder(koivu being kept away from the other teams top checking line equals more production from him imo) your third line looks great , and assuming rebeiro is gone , lets plug chipchura into the fourth line and i think we'll have the cup contending team that we all want . GO HABS GO

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08-07-2006, 04:38 PM
  #81
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That's not what I said. I said show me a GM that would take Ribeiro over Gomez, Madden or Nieuwendyk and I'll show you an idiot. If Gainey could have gotten any of these players I guarantee you he'd have given them more money and a longer term contract. I also suspect you would have seen RIbeiro in Hamilton.
I RE-READ YOUR POST AND YOU ARE CORRECT , YOU DID NOT SAY THAT . MY MISTAKE AND FOR THAT I APOLOGIZE .

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08-07-2006, 04:41 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Catch-22 View Post
On the contrary. Here is where he is most popular, for political reasons.


Are you saying Gainey actually care about politic?? He's a separatist or something??

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08-07-2006, 06:48 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
Well, Lecavalier is overrated, so I would say yeah, it's possible for him. None the less there's no point in beating a dead horse. I don't think your argument has much, if any, validity to it, and it's my contention that Ribeiro is equally able to put up one-season totals similar to any of those previously quoted, because that's all they are: one season.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that point, but you do claim that your reasoning answers "why Ribeiro cannot be ours if we want to win a cup", which is logically equivalent to "We cannot win a cup with Ribeiro" (assuming it is our desire to win a cup, if that's not the case, then all bets are off). So your argument should support that definitive statement, which it doesn't. However, if English isn't your first language, then I'll give you a pass, since you might not have known your statement was definitive.

We can agree to disagree. I think that Ribeiro's qualities show that he will not be part of any Stanley Cup team. I do maintain that the Habs will not be among the top 4 with Mike Ribeiro as the number two centre and my conclusions are certainly supported by any amount of evidence.

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08-07-2006, 06:49 PM
  #84
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Are you saying Gainey actually care about politic?? He's a separatist or something??
I think it wise not to make this a political thread, but one of the reasons Gainey represents a departure from our last 15 years of management is because he doesn't care about politics. He got rid of Theodore, thank goodness. Gainey signed Ribeiro to a one year contract. That's hardly a vote of confidence. It surprises me that so many people don't really understand why he was given a one-year deal. The glaring fact is that if Ribeiro was so desirable in the market, and if the Habs wanted to keep him for the long term, then they would have given him a long term contract and guaranteed it. And if Ribeiro could have netted a contract that gave him financial certainty over the next 4 years then he would have. The fact that they didn't offer him a long term deal and that he accepted the short-term one tells you that the "powers tha be" know he's not that desirable. The fact that he wasn't offered a longer term deal should also indicate that he is not in the long term plans of the organization. I think those GMs know that he's not the kind of guy you need to win.

When I said he was popular for political reasons I was talking about the fans and the media.


Last edited by Catch-22: 08-07-2006 at 07:04 PM.
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