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Old
03-24-2013, 08:40 PM
  #626
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Originally Posted by Stars99Lobo37 View Post
Because this team is just as bad as the standing's indicated last year (and the year before, and the year before, and the year before that).
Are you saying this season's team isn't good enough to make the playoffs?

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03-24-2013, 08:43 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Are you saying this season's team isn't good enough to make the playoffs?
No, but it isn't because of them. The teams around them are just as bad.

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03-24-2013, 09:34 PM
  #628
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I'm not sure what you mean by "win." If you mean win championships, well admittedly that's a real longshot. If you mean make the playoffs and maybe even win a series, I think that's very possible and the goal of the team and its ownership.
Making the playoffs and being competitive in them has been this organization's goal the last five years, including this one. I'm not saying it's Cup or bust but ultimately it's about being Cup-competitive or bust. This team was there a while back but has fallen and fallen hard. When I say that we got used to the Stars being a "winning franchise" I mean there were a number of years where they were on the short list of favorites to win the Cup. Lately, we're getting edged out of the playoffs by our former coach and teams relatively equally mediocre as the Stars who just happen to be just that much better.

Re: Goal of the owner, you may want to look at his most recent quotes.

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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Pretty much. At some point you realize that most of these guys are from Timbuctu, Ontario or Doobie Cove, BC and that it's all just a fun hobby where they make millions and the fans pull their hair out. Jagr's stint with the Caps was disappointing, but as an adult it doesn't cause the same reaction as it would if I was a kid. I still get excited when he scores a big goal and a bit bummed when he was with the Caps or in the KHL for 3 years, but just accept the good and the bad, it's really no big thing to me.
I'm not nearly as attached to this team as I used to be. I post often and I care but it's not quite the emotional attachment I had when I was 17.

My point about following a team vs following a player is that your fan situation can change at the drop of a hat. Jagr was traded out of Washington before even playing three full seasons. It's also not nearly as much about winning when you follow a player. My point is you've basically been able to take the real emotion out of your fandom because your favorite player is a legend and was never very likely to disappoint you. Being a fan of Jagr through his career is comparable to being a Red Wings fan over the last 15 years; you haven't exactly had it hard.


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Montreal's a good example of a team that wasn't nearly as bad as the standings indicated last year, and probably not nearly as good as they indicate this year. That's why I don't understand how everyone is so sure this team will finish 9th or 10th this season, based on last year's results. It's a different team, a different season, who knows what will happen?
To this I would say that the 2008-09 Stars weren't nearly as bad as their record indicated. Too bad though, because it got the GM and coach canned. Enter Nieuwendyk and Marc freaking Crawford...then enter rookie AHL coach. It went from missing the playoffs one year removed from making a strong run in the 2008 postseason to being a consistently middling team, with higher draft picks than over any stretch since the early days in Dallas, only to whiff on at least one high pick (Glennie) and to take a goaltender another year.

Your mantra here has been that this team is different than other teams, the players etc. are different so we shouldn't expect the same results. There were new faces in 2010, 2011, and 2012. None of those teams were exactly the same but they all got pretty much the same results. A couple of different players aren't able to change downward momentum that easily.


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I didn't say Dallas this season was as good as the Kings last season. However, if the Kings hadn't made the playoffs before last season, I doubt they win the Cup. They were 6th (one point ahead of 7th) in 2010 and 8th in 2011. Even with the high draft picks and trades, when half your team hasn't played at least a couple playoff series, then it's difficult to win a Cup. What they did was still rather unusual, given the relative inexperience in the playoffs of many of their players.
I didn't say you said this year's Stars were as good as last year's Kings. What I said was that this year's Stars aren't as good as the Kings from 2-3 years ago, the ones that got into the playoffs (and got beaten).

I would add that you're understating how much playoff experience last year's Kings had in some respects. Mike Richards, Carter, Justin Williams, Scuderi, Willie Mitchell, Stoll, and Penner...all except Mitchell had a SCF appearance (or win...Williams, Scuderi, Penner) under their belt. That team was not hurting for playoff experience, but to your point, their best player had all of six NHL playoff games before last spring and still managed the lead the team to the Cup.

The Kings of three years ago were further along in their rebuild than we are. It's that simple.

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03-24-2013, 10:08 PM
  #629
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Sorry if I'm being obtuse...
Unfortunately you still are with this nugget of ignorance below.


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I think the team had a goal of making the playoffs this year, hence the signing of Jagr & Whitney
They were there to be temporary leadership pieces and to help our PP that was the franchise's worst ever in 2011-12. No bloody way the team was playoff bound with that defense.

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, and they are making a good run at it.
And here's where "delusions of grandeur" would apply.

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I don't see why them just missing the playoffs in recent years makes it a near certainty that they will do so again this year. The team is quite different than even last year, especially at forward.
Seriously, do you really watch the games?



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Maybe JN isn't the best GM and should be replaced, I'm not in position to say one way or another. A good GM can draft good players from the 10-14 position and in later rounds, not just in the top 5. I just wonder if the 2010 Flyers should have thrown in the towel, since they just about missed the playoffs... or whether the 2006 Canes should have tanked, since they didn't appear to be much of a contender entering the season. I guess I'll read up about which of the perpetually tanking teams will be in this year's finals. I'm guessing it should be Islanders or Toronto vs. Columbus or Edmonton?


Oh FFS, do YOU have any ****ing clue about this team at all?!! Despite your best efforts, you still come across absolutely dense and ignorant of what's gone wrong and how despite the "change," most issues with the team- inconsistencies, -ve GD, allowing more SOG, getting outworked, poor defense, etc. etc., have remained essentially the same. And the fact that many issues have still remained unaddressed is why we are NOT the Flyers of 2010 that squeaked in and made it to the SCF, or the 2006 Canes. On that note, I ask you this: Are you out of your ****ing mind? You think we're anywhere close to playing like the 2006 Canes, who ended up as #2 seed in the EC and were quite dominant? Had we played like them then it's a different issue, but we haven't, hence your point is essentially moot.,
Stop being ridiculous!


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03-25-2013, 12:48 AM
  #630
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
I'm not nearly as attached to this team as I used to be. I post often and I care but it's not quite the emotional attachment I had when I was 17.

My point about following a team vs following a player is that your fan situation can change at the drop of a hat. Jagr was traded out of Washington before even playing three full seasons. It's also not nearly as much about winning when you follow a player. My point is you've basically been able to take the real emotion out of your fandom because your favorite player is a legend and was never very likely to disappoint you. Being a fan of Jagr through his career is comparable to being a Red Wings fan over the last 15 years; you haven't exactly had it hard.
There's still plenty of emotion involved (much more than there should be ), there's just less thrill of victory and agony of defeat than there used to be. I still remember the thrill of the Rangers being on the cusp of being up 3-2 vs. Buffalo in their 2007 series, with all the momentum and seemingly two chances to close out the series and be in ECF... only for Drury to tie it with seconds left and the Sabres winning in OT. The other similarity is loyalty to the player/team through thick and thin, despite what others may say or think.

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To this I would say that the 2008-09 Stars weren't nearly as bad as their record indicated. Too bad though, because it got the GM and coach canned. Enter Nieuwendyk and Marc freaking Crawford...then enter rookie AHL coach. It went from missing the playoffs one year removed from making a strong run in the 2008 postseason to being a consistently middling team, with higher draft picks than over any stretch since the early days in Dallas, only to whiff on at least one high pick (Glennie) and to take a goaltender another year.

Your mantra here has been that this team is different than other teams, the players etc. are different so we shouldn't expect the same results. There were new faces in 2010, 2011, and 2012. None of those teams were exactly the same but they all got pretty much the same results. A couple of different players aren't able to change downward momentum that easily.
So the previous owner over-reacted by canning the GM & coach... so now everyone wants the new owner to can the GM & coach (and this coach has only been there for one full season)?

Was the 2009 team really much better than this one? I can only judge what I see from the roster and stats:

A) 83 points, which was only .446 of the available points in their games. They were 12th in West, 8 points from a tie for 8th (and they would have lost a tiebreaker with fewer wins).
B) GD of -26 and GF/GA ratio of .896 (both excluding SOs).
C) outshot by ~0.9 shots/game
D) PP% of 15.38% (27th) vs. league avg. 18.95%
E) PK% of 78.59% (24th) vs. league avg. 81.05%

I can see why you would think they were better than their record indicates, since it seems they had some significant injuries (Richards, Lehtinen, Morrow). Still, it looks similar to this team in a lot of ways: a mix of veterans and youth, a lot of depth at forward, a mediocre defense and very good starting goaltending. Yes, there are concerns: inconsistent play from period to period and game to game (not uncommon in the NHL), not playing that well at home and/or against the bottom half of the conference, being outshot by a large margin, and committing a lot of penalties. There are some signs of hope too: the team is as healthy as they have been all season, in the thick of the playoff hunt, and playing well on the road and/or against the top half of the conference.

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I didn't say you said this year's Stars were as good as last year's Kings. What I said was that this year's Stars aren't as good as the Kings from 2-3 years ago, the ones that got into the playoffs (and got beaten).

I would add that you're understating how much playoff experience last year's Kings had in some respects. Mike Richards, Carter, Justin Williams, Scuderi, Willie Mitchell, Stoll, and Penner...all except Mitchell had a SCF appearance (or win...Williams, Scuderi, Penner) under their belt. That team was not hurting for playoff experience, but to your point, their best player had all of six NHL playoff games before last spring and still managed the lead the team to the Cup.

The Kings of three years ago were further along in their rebuild than we are. It's that simple.
I understand the Kings were a better team, esp. on defense and esp. last season. However, like this year's Stars, a lot of those players had playoff experience with other teams (as Jagr, Whitney, Roy, Cole do). Sure, Kopitar only had one series before last year, and players like Quick & Doughty only two, but that's still better than none. A couple of competitive playoff series at least gives those players an idea of what it takes to win a series.

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03-25-2013, 12:54 AM
  #631
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Was the 2009 team really much better than this one? I can only judge what I see from the roster and stats:
Yes.

Turco was the biggest downfall of that team. The team was able to score like none other under Tip (at least it felt like they could score at any moment). Not to mention, the amount of injuries that team suffered...and of course the whole locker room was in disarray with the Avery situation the first two months of the season. Morrow, still his 08 self, was injured early that year (though he was pretty horrible before his injury). Completely forgot about the Richards injury off and on that year until you mentioned it. Was in San Jose that night he got re-injured. Talked to Razor after the game that night, and you could just see it in his face that it was the final blow to that team.

The team fell off at the end of the year, obviously. I remember Razor's quote when Ott scored in the final seconds vs Anaheim to extend the game to OT in the final game of the year..."The season that just will not end!!" Summed it up perfectly.

The feeling around this team and franchise compared to that team is just completely night and day.

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03-25-2013, 12:58 AM
  #632
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They were there to be temporary leadership pieces and to help our PP that was the franchise's worst ever in 2011-12. No bloody way the team was playoff bound with that defense.
Do you mean last year's team which almost made the playoffs, or this year's team which is in the thick of the playoff chase?

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And here's where "delusions of grandeur" would apply.
Despite being maddeningly inconsistent and struggling with some injuries/holdouts (Benn, Whitney, Lehtonen, etc.), they still have a good chance to make the playoffs.

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Seriously, do you really watch the games?
Not the majority of them, no. I try to spare myself as much pain as possible.

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Oh FFS, do YOU have any ****ing clue about this team at all?!! Despite your best efforts, you still come across absolutely dense and ignorant of what's gone wrong and how despite the "change," most issues with the team- inconsistencies, -ve GD, allowing more SOG, getting outworked, poor defense, etc. etc., have remained essentially the same. And the fact that many issues have still remained unaddressed is why we are NOT the Flyers of 2010 that squeaked in and made it to the SCF, or the 2006 Canes. On that note, I ask you this: Are you out of your ****ing mind? You think we're anywhere close to playing like the 2006 Canes, who ended up as #2 seed in the EC and were quite dominant? Had we played like them then it's a different issue, but we haven't, hence your point is essentially moot.,
Stop being ridiculous!
Yes, they have some issues to address. No, I don't think they are a Cup contender. My point about the Canes' Cup in 2006 was that they didn't have the look of a Cup contender the previous season (2004):

A) finished 11th in the East with 76 points in a slightly below average division
B) had a GD of -37 and a GF/GA ratio of .82
C) their leading scorer had 45 points

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03-25-2013, 01:18 AM
  #633
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Originally Posted by Stars99Lobo37 View Post
Yes.

Turco was the biggest downfall of that team. The team was able to score like none other under Tip (at least it felt like they could score at any moment). Not to mention, the amount of injuries that team suffered...and of course the whole locker room was in disarray with the Avery situation the first two months of the season. Morrow, still his 08 self, was injured early that year (though he was pretty horrible before his injury). Completely forgot about the Richards injury off and on that year until you mentioned it. Was in San Jose that night he got re-injured. Talked to Razor after the game that night, and you could just see it in his face that it was the final blow to that team.

The team fell off at the end of the year, obviously. I remember Razor's quote when Ott scored in the final seconds vs Anaheim to extend the game to OT in the final game of the year..."The season that just will not end!!" Summed it up perfectly.

The feeling around this team and franchise compared to that team is just completely night and day.
I guess it seems a bit harsh to pin a rough season on Turco, an elite goalie who had 74 decisions that season, but obviously you know your team better than I. Seems like injuries were just too much and Turco was overworked and had a bit of an off year. Still, even if he had a SV% at his career avg., that team would have had a negative GD.

If Gully has to go, so be it. If they have to trade Roy, or even Jagr, so be it. I'm just not a big fan of the "trade and fire everyone and start all over" mantra. Just because you take a wrong turn at Albuquerque doesn't mean you have to fly back to your starting point and begin the journey all over. I expect they will see the season through (but good chance they trade Roy and maybe a d-man), hopefully make the playoffs, and then re-evaluate. Roy didn't choose to come here, but Jagr did, so I see the situations differently. If you sign a legend like Jagr to a one year deal, in part for his leadership, then I don't think you just trade him because the team is not a lock to make the playoffs. I'm not sure what kind of message that would send to the current players (you guys all suck and can't ever make the playoffs anyway), or to veterans that might consider signing in the future (we just want you here to trade for picks & prospects). I think Jagr came to Dallas for the coin, the ice time, and the challenge of leading an underdog to the playoffs. I don't think he expected this team to do much better than it has, esp. considering the circumstances (injuries, almost no pre-season, etc.). I don't think he's giving up, I don't think the management is giving up, so that's why I'm a bit surprised a large contingent of the fan base seems to have given up. I admit I'm not intimately familiar with the recent history of the Dallas Stars. Still, it has the feeling of coming over to a small gathering and there being an undercurrent of tension between two or more parties (the fans and the management in this case). One thought they were coming over to have a good time, and there's this constant bickering and long-brewing resentment coming to the surface. If that's the vibe you guys want, you got it in spades... ain't no big thang to me.

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03-25-2013, 01:23 AM
  #634
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I guess it seems a bit harsh to pin a rough season on Turco, an elite goalie who had 74 decisions that season, but obviously you know your team better than I. Seems like injuries were just too much and Turco was overworked and had a bit of an off year. Still, even if he had a SV% at his career avg., that team would have had a negative GD.
This game's highlights sum up that season absolutely perfectly....

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03-25-2013, 01:44 AM
  #635
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I guess it seems a bit harsh to pin a rough season on Turco, an elite goalie who had 74 decisions that season, but obviously you know your team better than I. Seems like injuries were just too much and Turco was overworked and had a bit of an off year. Still, even if he had a SV% at his career avg., that team would have had a negative GD.

If Gully has to go, so be it. If they have to trade Roy, or even Jagr, so be it. I'm just not a big fan of the "trade and fire everyone and start all over" mantra. Just because you take a wrong turn at Albuquerque doesn't mean you have to fly back to your starting point and begin the journey all over. I expect they will see the season through (but good chance they trade Roy and maybe a d-man), hopefully make the playoffs, and then re-evaluate. Roy didn't choose to come here, but Jagr did, so I see the situations differently. If you sign a legend like Jagr to a one year deal, in part for his leadership, then I don't think you just trade him because the team is not a lock to make the playoffs. I'm not sure what kind of message that would send to the current players (you guys all suck and can't ever make the playoffs anyway), or to veterans that might consider signing in the future (we just want you here to trade for picks & prospects). I think Jagr came to Dallas for the coin, the ice time, and the challenge of leading an underdog to the playoffs. I don't think he expected this team to do much better than it has, esp. considering the circumstances (injuries, almost no pre-season, etc.). I don't think he's giving up, I don't think the management is giving up, so that's why I'm a bit surprised a large contingent of the fan base seems to have given up. I admit I'm not intimately familiar with the recent history of the Dallas Stars. Still, it has the feeling of coming over to a small gathering and there being an undercurrent of tension between two or more parties (the fans and the management in this case). One thought they were coming over to have a good time, and there's this constant bickering and long-brewing resentment coming to the surface. If that's the vibe you guys want, you got it in spades... ain't no big thang to me.
I've said what I have to say. You should refer to the bolded part and really drill that into your head. You're doing the post-mortem while we watched the death. No matter how many numbers or sports cliches you toss our way you just can't beat having been along for the ride.

It hasn't been fun. But what has been fun is fans of other teams stopping by to tell us what our management should do or how we should feel about it. That never stops cheering things up.

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03-25-2013, 04:40 AM
  #636
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This game's highlights sum up that season absolutely perfectly....
Ugh...Turco was soooooooooooooo horrible the last few years. Thank God for Kari when we got him.

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03-25-2013, 05:54 AM
  #637
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Part of that was Tippett's inability/refusal to play Stephan, choosing instead to ride Turco into the ground.

Helped kill Dallas's playoff chances, and definitely wrecked Stephan's confidence, ending his NHL career after one season.

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03-25-2013, 06:03 AM
  #638
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definitely wrecked Stephan's confidence
Our defense didn't help that one bit either.

That Chicago game was talked about in a game thread or in this thread a couple days ago. So bad.

But at least we hung 10 on the Rangers and 8 on the Leafs that year.

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03-26-2013, 01:03 AM
  #639
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Are you saying this season's team isn't good enough to make the playoffs?

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03-26-2013, 02:11 AM
  #640
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As for future success for the Stars.
With the exception of Detroit, all of the cup winners since 2006 have had recent top five picks.
Kings Doughty #2 overall, tons of first round picks here/top ten picks.
Boston 2006 Kessel (traded to Toronto for two eventual top ten picks, including #2 overall Seguin), had a top ten pick in 2007 to.
Chicago Kane and Towes. Had Barker in 2004, traded him for Nick leddy.
Pittsburgh nothing needs to be said here.
Anaheim Bobby Ryan. 2004 they had Smid top ten pick, who was traded in a package to acquire Pronger
Carolina had Eric Staal 2nd overall in 2003. Can count Jack Johnson, but he never played for the Canes, traded to the Kings.

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03-26-2013, 01:28 PM
  #641
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If you guys haven't been listening to the assistant GM talking about advanced statistics in hockey on the Ticket you've been missing out.

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03-26-2013, 01:31 PM
  #642
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If you guys haven't been listening to the assistant GM talking about advanced statistics in hockey on the Ticket you've been missing out.
That has written all over it.

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03-26-2013, 01:35 PM
  #643
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That has written all over it.
It's really interesting. I haven't really ever thought about hockey that way.

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03-26-2013, 01:37 PM
  #644
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That has written all over it.
No, it's great stuff. He's not talking about it in the way fans overuse advanced stats. He's talking about weighing the approach to game events. Things like what is the risk/reward between the choices of skating the puck in the zone versus dumping it in. It's similar to stats nerds talking about the choice to steal a base or not in baseball or go for it on fourth down in football.

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03-26-2013, 01:41 PM
  #645
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No, it's great stuff. He's not talking about it in the way fans overuse advanced stats. He's talking about weighing the approach to game events. Things like what is the risk/reward between the choices of skating the puck in the zone versus dumping it in. It's similar to stats nerds talking about the choice to steal a base or not in baseball or go for it on fourth down in football.
Ah gotcha. Thought he was going to be talking about it in the way DBD uses it defend whatever defender they think is the best.

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03-26-2013, 01:45 PM
  #646
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CORSI was not mentioned once. I'll post the audio here when it's up.

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03-27-2013, 06:42 PM
  #647
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Missed the St. Patty's game and was looking through all the jerseys for auction, thought this one was especially great.

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03-28-2013, 11:11 AM
  #648
BigG44
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This makes it seem like Aaron Rome and Philip Larsen will get an opportunity to build some chemistry.

Quote:
Mark Stepneski ‏@StarsInsideEdge
Erik Cole not practicing today. Will get update after practice. Jordie Benn taking his place on a line with Cody Eakin and Reilly Smith.

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Old
03-28-2013, 11:13 AM
  #649
Frozen Failure
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... Okay....

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Old
03-28-2013, 11:21 AM
  #650
BigG44
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Originally Posted by Frozen Failure View Post
... Okay....
He's a place holder .... meaning he's not in the Top 6 on D.

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